Brent: Today we will focus on video scripts and then look at naming the resource. Will depend on timing about the sequence.
... and then will look at publication of WCAG-EM report tool, and F2f
Brent: The Task Force (TF) has reviewed and incorporated suggestions for changes. Have worked through scripts 1 through 5 and will look at final approval for those, and then look at 6-10.
Shadi: Thanks to everyone for comments, seems we are coming together on style and basic ideas and approach. Will next scrub up 6-10 and have a survey for those early next week.
... my understanding of scripts 1-5 are that they are mostly approved with one exception. We are porting over changes to that script #4. Agenda is refreshed with details about what we will consider today.
<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wai-showcase-examples/script6.html
Shadi: look at scripts 6-10 today for your comments about acceptance of that. We have had an issue raised about the approach and so we have taken a new look at how to talk about the need for notifications and feedback. The new approach is a coo-coo clock that ticks along, it is just before 12 and against our expectation, the bird does not speak at noon.
<shawn> cuckoo clock cute
Shadi: it is disconserting and confusing when it does not occur and then we relate that to online notifications. Looked at other examples and possibilities and settled on the coo coo clock.
... for suspense of waiting for something to happen that does not happen.
Brent: It is building suspense and the focus of the tick tock building suspense and expecting something to happen and the confusion that heppens when expectations are not met?
Kevin: do cookoo clocks translate internationally, especially into asian markets?
... I like the building of suspense, but wondered about translation.
Shadi: We actually considered that and felt that it wa widely known. Any other thoughts about this?
<Susan> +1 Shawn
Susan: I like the idea, just wondering if some people will get it. Is there enought time for people to grasp the concept?
<George> + cuckoo clock has been used in animation/cartoons for many, many years
Shadi: Will focus on the door and with the ticking clock the hope is that people will understand that something is supposed to happen.
<Susan> lol!
Howard: Thinking out loud, have we thought about more common everyday things like an ATM or other places where feedack and notification may be expected.
... People face situations like this with technology everyday that may be used.
Shadi: Yes later on, we make the connection to technology situations. The clock is meant to draw viewers into the topic.
Howard: OK, I think that's fine, I am just thinking out loud.
<Susan> The clock is eye-catching. Could draw people into the video more than an ATM or similar
Sharron: I don't quite get the analogy. With a cookoo clock you know to expect something, but online notification and alerts often come when you make a mistake, you are not necessarily expecting them.
Shadi: It is more related to the situations where loading things are going on, or where you have submitted but get no confirmation.
Shawn: I really like the build up, not maybe a perfect anlaogy but a great way to get people drawn in.
Shadi: We will clean up the wording and submit as an approach to this script.
Brent: Looking at the anticipation analogy, it might work better if we cut to a loading symbol and then it just stops, nothing happens. Makes you wonder what has happened with a narrative...to add to the connection.
James: I like it a lot but am hearing the concerns about the analogy, maybe consider the moving minute hand is the feedback and have it not ever reach 12.
... otherwise I think it is a great idea.
Shawn: If the moving minute hand is feedback, so if the visual is that you zoom in and then don't see the minute hand but only hear the ticking - then you get rid of that feedback
James: If you show the minute hand reach noon and the bird does not come out, the clock is broken. So it can be worked out I am sure.
<shawn> +1 for Brent's example after the cuckcoo clock
Shadi: But the same analaogy with the loading indicator - it comes to an end and nothing happens.
Brent: The way I see it is that it is OK if the clock works and goes past without the bird popping out - shows that the clock is working, what is missing is proper notification.
Sharron: +1
<James_> +1
<shawn> +1
<Brent> +1
<Susan> +1
<Howard> +1
<yatil> +1
Shadi: Summary is that yes, we like the visual, but tighten up the wording to make the connection clearer.
<kevin> + 3/4
<George> +1
Shadi: The analogy they came up with was toast...the dial on your toaster allows you to choose your own toastiness, that is the theme and then we relate it back to fonts and colors and adapting them to suit your needs.
Susan: I had to go back and see what it is about because I had to go back. It does work to make the connection to text customization.
... people look at things and see the difference in the colors of toast gives room for misinterpretation that this is about color and constrast.
... I had to go back and check, this is just too similar to that. Feel pretty strongly that we need to think aobut this.
James: I think it is good, I like it and if you only had a couple of people one with normal range of toast and one who totally chars it it would de-emphasize color.
Kevin: Not sure that it passes the reality filter as it isn't an issue of preference, it is a need. Also, three people, three toasters? Too unrealistic. There is a scope issue, maybe just two people, one toaster.
Susan: Just another point, I feel like this is an issue of preference. Reading is not really a luxury, it is a necessity.
Shadi: It is true what you are saying but there is not a specific WCAG requirement about this, it is a tough subject.
Shawn:Well, even though it is not in WCAG it is clearly in UAAG, which is a normative note...
I am still processing this concept and see that there is a bit of concern about the preference and the color issues but I think these are surmountable. It looks like you are working on that to show that the issue is way beyond preference to an absolute requirement. Can down play the color - maybe have one person who wants their bread not toasted at all to communicate beyond color and beyond preference in other visuals
Shadi: There have been questions raised about how to represent issues that we know are important but are not WCAG defined.
Susan: What about 1.4.4?
Shadi: Yes and WCAG does talk about adaptability in a general way. But WCAG does not explicitly say choose different font faces, etc. Our concerns inlcude the need to show that the user should choose not that one font or font size is better than another.
<Susan> gotcha
Sharron: What about Goldilocks, this one is too hot, this one is too cold, this one is just right?... or pillows...some like fluffy feathery pillows, some like hard foam pillows.
... and there are always these toasters that have four slices
Shadi: Still rough text, but will definitely be only one toaster.
... heating was another one, could not visually see it as well.
Shawn: The toaster provides an actual setting and adds strength to that analogy.
Shadi: Any strong objections to this, esp you Susan?
... shall we keep working on this?
<George> +1
Sharron: +1
<Brent> +1
<Susan> +1/2 still not loving it but will go with group
<Howard> +1
<shawn> +3/4 or more - still processing
<kevin> +1 although I think that a heating thermostat could work
<yatil> +1
Shawn: Three or more people is better.
<James_> Maybe a family in a kitchen
Shadi: One not toasted at all, and two with different toast settings?
Shawn: Maybe but not necessarily.
Kevin: Heating thermostat may have mileage as well....people come along turning it up and down.
Shawn: But you are then forcing your need on others. The beauty of the other is to show that the settings for my computer (and my toast) does not affect anyone else.
Shadi: On the web everyone can have their own toast, their own experince.
Brent: We talked about heating...and there really is no solution, there is a compromise to a common temp.
<James_> Some cars let each passenger set their own temp
Adina: And someone will always be miserable.
Shadi: The seat position is one that we considered but is not as easily visually communicated.
Shawn: A benefit of seat adjustment, maybe more of a need with short and tall people and proximity to controls. Why not that one?
Shadi: The producers thought there was more visual appeal to the breakfast scene.
<James_> +1 to toast over car for visual connection
Adina: It also comes down to the cost. Much less expensive to shoot something with outside lighting, small spaces, more complexity and rigorous approach that would cost much more.
Susan: What about people in office chairs who adjust the seating for their height?
Shadi: To focus in on the first time they use it, the short person moves it one way, the tall person another way, less outdoor lighting considerations.
Shawn: Why does James prefer the toaster, I want to hear? But what about a shared car, one driver is short, another one tall. The short person gets in to drive the car - can't reach pedals. Moves the seat closer - happy... short person gets out. Then tall person tries to get in and physically cannot even get into the seat. makes the adjustment, everyone happy again.
<shawn> Shawn fine with the toast.
James: I prefer the toast because of the length of the toast demo and everyone will identify. I like the driving one but it could take too long.
<yatil> +1 to toast over chair over car
Shadi: I am hearing that folks can live with the toast but that we should still consider these other ideas.
... would ask the group to continue to consider.
<Brent> +1 also for toaster simplicity. Can see the settings dial easily
Eric: The toast analogy is so clear and simple, I prefer that one over the others.
<George> +1 Toast
Sharron: is the fact that toast is a preference not a need going to become irrelevant then?
<shawn> +1 to taking it back to the Task Force and production company -- cons with toast, idea of office chairs, idea of car seat driver
Shadi: No not really, just used to bring people in and then make the case that some choices go beyond preference to requirement.
... must also consider communication of basic concept, expense etc.
<shawn> +1 OK with toast -- after due consideration of other issues
Shadi: can this group give the TF permission to make these considerations and make the conclusion based on all of them?
Sharron: +1, toast is OK
<Susan> +1 with Shawn's statement
<Howard> +1 toast is okay
Shadi: People felt the broken window one was not feasible, the idea now is to have a broken computer mouse and a person is in the position of of recruiting someone with an assitive device to indicate the need for keyboard access for some.
<Susan> +q
Susan: Are they both on the same website, the person in scene 1 and scene 2. I wonder if we see the person in 1 try without success and the person in scene 2 is more successful.
Shadi: many people do not know that they can tab through sites, etc. So the person in scene 2 shows them how it works.
... how to show the barriers is the question still being considered. Does that answer your question?
Susan: it is hard to visualize how it will be.
... a person without inherant barriers has that option, where the scene 2 person does not have that option.
Shadi: We want to emphasize the need aspect, but maybe not in scene 1.
<shawn> +1 to one mouse not working then frustration
Shawn: Curious why you thought of a connected mouse rather than a battery operated mouse, where the batteries may stop. that seems much more likely.
Shadi: Also more likely to be easily fixed by changing the battery, and showing the search for a battery may take too much time.
Sharron: could pretty quickly, open the drawer find the empty battery package?
<yatil> Wireless mice also fall from the desk (and break) more easily...
Shadi: Visual of the headstick user will be powerful here, a departure from the traditional screen reader etc that people will relate to.
<Susan> I've lost sound. anyone else?
10 - 15 minutes of troublshooting to address lost audio for several participants
<shawn> Shawn: (cordless) mouse falling off table and breaking is more realistic and easier to communicate than mouse just not working
<shawn> Adina: wired mouse is dated
Sharron: It would be quite quick to show opening a drawer and find an empty package where you *thought* you had batteries
<shawn> +1 to sharron's point
Shadi: Sounds like lots of preference with cordless mouse so I will take back to the production company, I see no problem. I heard no other issues...with that addressed are we OK?
Sharron: +1
<Susan> +1
<George> +1
<James_> +1
<Brent> +1 good with approach
<kevin> +1
<yatil> +1
<shawn> summary: preference for cordless mouse. possibly user opens drawer and battery package is empty (or has 1 battery and mouse needs 2). or mouse falls off table
<shawn> +1
Shadi: We tried to address the concern that Susan had about threading a needle with the threader, Susan's concerns are that the website provides the larger click area the user does not need external intervention.
Susan: Yes, it is easily fixable, it cannot be addressed on the user side, seems a bit dated and whether people will identify with a needle threader.
... Not a terribly strong objection, about 6 or 7 toward acceptance.
Shadi: What do others think of that anlaogy? As with several others it is not a perfect analogy want to bring the veiwer in and then relate it to the web.
<yatil> I think it works OK. At least I don't know any better analogy...
Sharron: Are there other scenarios that you considered or would you ahve to go back entirely from scratch?
Shadi: No others, we would have to go back and start over entirely, the Task Force liked it.
Sharron: I like it, but Susan's point resonates with me.
<James_> Tiny trash can opening?
<George> I also related to it...but agree with Susan and Sharron...
Susan: another point is that the eye of the needle can't be enlarged by manufacturer. it's not a defect. but I'm not super strong here.
Shadi: thoughts, comments from others?
Shawn: I agree with Susan that it is not perfect, but I think it is essentially useful and am OK with going with this one
Susan: Yes considering your point that the original scenario is meant to bring people in, I can live with it.
<yatil> +1 shawn
<Brent> +1 to Shawn
Shawn: So maybe we understand that the opening metaphor cannot be carried through the rest of the video. So use it to express the frustration but don't refer back to it in this case.
Shadi: is the group OK to go with this and considering the concerns as we build the script?
<shawn> ... 'cause metaphor really breaks down
Sharron: +1
<Brent> +1 go with script 7
<Susan> +1
<George> +1
<James_> +0 why show the needle threader at all?
Howard: I don't see where in the script it breaks down, the analogy is in the frustration of a small target area so I think it is just fine as it is.
James: I think the problem is that the needle threader is analogous to assitive technology, and we are not promoting AT so just use it to show the frustration with small targets.
Shadi: The idea is that if there is not solution, only a problem, that is not helpful. The idea is to solve problems.
James: I just worry that the solution in the analogy is a tool and in the real situation it is design.
... the voice track needs to be improved so that the responsibility of the solution (providing the larger target) is clearly defined. The script now does not do that.
Brent: I suggest we move forward with the analogy and keep the concerns of the group in mind as we improve the narrative.
Susan: I really agree with James and I think if we try them trying to thread it (without the threader) and leave them in frustration.
<yatil> +1 removing threader
<George> +1 remove threader
James: I am not pushing so much to remove the threader as to remove the responsibility of finding a solution from the user - to make the viewer understand that he/she is responsible for providing large click areas.
RESOLUTION: The threader will not be used in the large target area video.
Shadi: Thanks everyone. The items we did not get to will be asked for your very immediate attention in GitHUb and elsewhere.
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/109
Shadi: Please chip in on the discussion here:
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/109
Shadi: also looking for a title screen, will send out email with that, moving back to the title of the whole resource...
... can we put that on a wiki page or GitHUb to have people contribute online before next week, a name for the entire resource.
... Coming back to script #4, we are changing the first few scenes, will see the changes in the current script - still not yet quite final - to emphasize the need rather than the preference.
... Thanks for your contributions, please be prepared for quick turnaround on the next items.
<shawn> i'm not sure about the change to script 4...
Brent: Thank you Howard fo sending input, much appreciated but to everyone else in EO, we *really* need support for the Widgets, tools and frameworks list, especially frameworks. I would like to ask each of you to please send info directly to eric and copy the editor's list. **We need everyone to respond.**
... are trying to get approval to publish the WCAG-EM Report Tool, will bring it up next week.
... links to F2F agendas are posted and will continue to be added to, contributions are welcome.
<shawn> To help us troubleshoot the WebEx problem - please type here how you first connected to the call and if you lost audio or not -- and any other info that might help:
Sharron: connected through computer audio, lost audio. Dialled in by phone, reconnected temporarily, then lost audio again.
<George> Had Webex call me, audio stopped working, got dropped
<yatil> connected through computer audio, too and and lost audio (not technically dropped)
<yatil> twice
<George> I dropped due to pilot error on my part with the phone..
<shawn> app called me and did not lose audio
<James_> I did NOT lose audio, James_1I joined WebEx on line and had it call me
<Howard> I connected to the call using the internet - audio was lost
Kevin: Connected through computer audio, and lost audio. Tried to reconnect via computer but it wasn't having any of it.
Brent: I called into the webex number with cell phone. I did not lose audio.