<agarrison> +present Alistair

<Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer

Kathy: working on touch and pointer extension. Looking at understanding – careful with numbering because there some automatic numbering
... also have people working on techniques and failures for these
... I'm still writing the rest of the success criteria. Plan to write that this weekend for some of the other ones so that next week we can review the understanding for the other success criteria
... the other place where we change things based on our conversations over the last two weeks 2.4 touch target size 44 x 44 pixels at the default pixel size. The other one that goes with that where we left off talking last week is 2.5.5 touch target clearance – clearance of at least 48 pixels except when user has reduced default scale of content. This one we were talking about whether...
... it's necessary given we are already specifying a touch target size. Because if you have a touch target size of 44 do you need to be specifying

Determining origin of 48

Kathy: do we need both? Wouldn't the center already be specified by specifying touch target size

Alistair: specify visible

Jan: I agree

<Kathy> 2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets take up at least 48px x 48px of the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)

Kathy: still need to figure out 44 or 48

<Kathy> 2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets take up at least 44px x 44px of the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)

Alistair: 44
... measure 44 x 44 doesn't necessarily mean it has to be visible

<Jan> 2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets measure at least 44px x 44px on the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)

Jan: unless we have something which says touch targets can overlap– do we allow them to overlap, say small one on top of a large one and 44 x 44 chunk of the large invisible off to the side. Is that a loophole we want to prevent?

Alistair: that should be fine as long as 44 x 44 is available

Jan: has to be measured from the middle – if only a quarter is active and it's the right size but

Alistair: as long as it says 44 x 44 visible it doesn't matter that it's from the center, just big enough to be able to hit with your finger

Jan: center better?

Alistair: that's venturing into usability

Kathy: boils down to is there an accessibility issue if I have overlapping touch targets if they're big enough

Alistair: you obviously won't be able to see one very well – that's a bit of accessibility issue but it's kind of usability no one's going to design a site where you've got two buttons that will overlap each other

Kathy: I saw a lot of canvas stuff yesterday and it had overlapping stuff all over the place and never put it past people to do
... failure right now under 2.5.5 touch targets overlapping
... maybe that's not a actual failure that we want to look at, or maybe we need to adjust

Jan: if we said touch targets measure at least 44, and visual indicator says something is a button or touch target

Kathy: you measure 44 on the visual portion of the screen default viewport size –is that enough. If you have two areas that are greater than 44 by 44 but they overlap you still have 44 x 44 for each touch target

Alistair: I'll touch targets need to be identifiable as touch targets

Kathy: I think we've got that in a different section

<Jan> 2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets have a radius of at least 22px measured from the center of the visual indicator of the touch target, except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)

<Kathy> 2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets have a radius of at least 22px measured from the center of the visual indicator of the touch target at default viewport size

Alistair: radius implies round

<Kathy> 2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets have a size of at least 22px measured from the center of the visual indicator of the touch target at default viewport size

Jan: possible problem – imagine send button triangle on the screen. It's touch target size is the right size, 44 x 44, but the icon that marks the touch target is left justified in the touch target, so that most of his off to the right so the user who tries to touch that arrow could end up missing it if they are a little bit to the left

Alistair: what about the central portion of the touch target has to measure 44 x 44…

Kathy: what do you think Henny

<agarrison> The central portion of the touch target measures least 44px x 44px of the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content.

Henny: not sure

<Kathy> 2.5.4 The central portion of the touch target measures least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size

Alistair: if the visible display was 200 x 200 and this measures 44 it doesn't necessarily glue the two together

Kathy: we could write a failure for that situation though

Jan: maybe a definition of touch target would help

Kathy: definition of touch target would be good

Jan: a touch target that's underneath another touch target so that it no longer takes a touch is not a touch target, and that would rule out using that as part of your measurement

Kathy: is everyone happy with the language we have right now for 2.5.4?

Jan: playing devils advocate – are people going to ask with the central portion of the touch target is

Kathy: definition of that too?

<marcjohlic> +1 (couple of typos in what was put in IRC, but +1 w/ the general idea)

Marc: visual display versus visible make a difference?

<jeanne> +1 visible

<marcjohlic> CORRECTED: 2.5.4 The central portion of the touch target measures at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size

<marcjohlic> +1

+1

<HennyS> +1

Alistair: still wondering about measures, what about consumes?

Kathy: we can clarify in the understanding document

<jeanne> +1 for measures, consumes adds a new confusion

<jeanne> +1 "is"

Marc: just leave out measures

<jeanne> +1 for removing central portion

Jan: put central portion in another SC

<Jan> 2.5.4 The touch target measures at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size.

<marcjohlic> 2.5.4 The touch target is at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size

+1

Kathy: do we have to define visual display?

Jan: does a touch target become not a touch target when it's offscreen?
... you can imagine AT that can take a touch somewhere and position it somewhere else

Marc: developer tools for size?

<Jan> Possible defn of Touch Target: Region of the display that will accept a touch action. If a portion of a touch target is overlapped by another touch target such that it cannot receive touch actions, then that portion is not considered a touch target for purposes of touch target measurements.

Kathy: we are using pixels so we can specify in the CSS and specifying default viewport size specifically because that is where you would measure the 44 x 44 pixels and if default viewport size changes automatically adjusts for that. A developer would be able to define 44 x 44 pixels – makes it much easier. But the key there is that's default viewport size

<agarrison> Should it be "A touch target" rather than "The touch target"

Kathy: we have display equals device with which is your standard default viewport size. As lie as you have that set the 44 x 44 pixels works

<marcjohlic> 2.5.4: A touch target is at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size

Discussing visible display

<Kathy> +1

<marcjohlic> +1

<jeanne> +1

<HennyS> +1

+1

<Jan> +1

<Kathy> Touch Target: Region of the display that will accept a touch action. If a portion of a touch target is overlapped by another touch target such that it cannot receive touch actions, then that portion is not considered a touch target for purposes of touch target measurements.

Jan: probably also requires a definition of touch action

Alistair: can we say designed to trigger a touch event

Jan: designed, that's the computational side – but from the user side they are taking an action

Kathy: I don't know – what do others think
... designed to trigger a touch event versus will accept a touch action

Alistair: touch action better, event could fire a keyboard event too

Kathy: is a pretty good with Jan's original language?

General agreement

<Kathy> 2.5.5 Touch Target Clearance: The center of each touch target has a distance of at least 44 pixels from the center of any other touch target, except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)

Kathy: proposal to remove touch target clearance – do you agree with removal of 2.5.5 right now as we have it in the document

<Kathy> +1

<Jan> +1

<agarrison> Remove +1

<HennyS> +1

<marcjohlic> +1 to remove

+1 remove

<jeanne> +1

<Kathy> M022 Spacing between elements. Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping

Kathy: right now we have a technique for spacing between elements and we have a failure touch target overlapping. Should those move to the previous requirement?
... do we need those or should they be removed?

Jan: if they're large and overlap slightly that doesn't seem like a problem

Kathy: 2.5.4 failure would be if touch target is less than 44 x 44 pixels of the visible display, so if you had to touch targets that overlapped and it wasn't a 44 x 44 measurement

Jan: maybe touch targets overlapping such that one of them becomes less and 44 x 44

<Kathy> Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping such that the touch target is less than 44px x 44px

Alistair: negative version of what we just added to the guidelines – don't necessarily need

Kathy: if we put that in is a failure it would help clarify when something of this nature is actually a failure

<Kathy> Mxxx Failure: touch target is less than 44px x 44px

<Kathy> Mxxx Failure: touch target is less than 44px x 44px at the default viewport size

Jan: clarity around this is in the glossary which is okay, but it helps also to have two failures
... comes down to the size – one you have one by itself and it's not the right size. The second is failed because overlap

Alistair: more than 44 pixels on the screen passes, doesn't matter if it's overlapped
... just wondering whether we need to have the failure that says if you have two buttons overlapping and you take one below a certain size – because you would've automatically failed anyway

<Kathy> Mxxx Failure: touch target is less than 44px x 44px at the default viewport size

<Kathy> Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping such that the touch target is less than 44px x 44px

Kathy: these are the two failures for 2.5.4

Alistair first and second one are pretty much the same – if you fail the second one you failed the first one

Kathy: we want to clarify that if overlap touch sizes no longer 44 by 44 it's just clarity for developers

<Kathy> Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping such that the visible touch target is less than 44px x 44px

Alastair: just write up a negative version of the success criteria?

Kathy: there are two scenarios one looking at one touch target and the other looking at two that are overlapping or adjacent

<agarrison> Failure: A touch target is less than 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size

Kathy: Alistair suggesting combining two failures – thoughts

Jan: two failures very clear

Kathy: WCAG already difficult for some developers to understand – anytime we can add clarity it's better.

any other techniques or failures

Kathy: are there any other techniques or failures you think we should add?
... thoughts on A or AA for 2.5.4
... listed as AA should it be single A?

<jeanne> +1 to AA

Alistair: consider it on the list?

Kathy: we will send out a note to the list for feedback on that

<Jan> Jan: AA

Kathy: we will leave it at AA for now
... we only have one left 2.5.6 device manipulation, we will pick that up next week. Jon also put failure technique out there. I'd like us to review it on the list. If you have time please read that over and comment on it if you've got any changes so that we can also finalize that a next week's call

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No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: Kim
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Present: Henny Kathy jeanne Kim Alistair Jan Marc
Regrets: Detlev alan
Found Date: 28 Jan 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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