IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2016-01-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:57:30 [RRSAgent]
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15:57:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-mobile-a11y-irc
15:57:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:32 [Zakim]
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15:57:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:57:34 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:57:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:35 [trackbot]
Date: 28 January 2016
15:57:40 [Kim]
chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
16:01:58 [Jan]
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16:02:01 [HennyS]
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16:03:06 [Kim]
agenda+ Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
16:03:07 [Kim]
agenda+ Continue to Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension
16:03:09 [Kim]
agenda+ Next steps – next meeting February 4
16:03:47 [Kim]
regrets+ Henny, Detlev
16:04:15 [Kim]
regrets+ alan
16:04:47 [Kim]
Present+ Henny
16:04:56 [Kathy]
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16:05:02 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
16:05:07 [Kim]
regrets- Henny
16:05:16 [jeanne]
present+ jeanne
16:05:28 [agarrison]
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16:05:37 [agarrison]
+present Alistair
16:05:44 [Kim]
present+ Kim
16:05:51 [Kathy]
https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
16:05:55 [agarrison]
present+ Alistair
16:06:03 [Kim]
present+ Jan
16:07:33 [Kim]
Kathy: working on touch and pointer extension. Looking at understanding – careful with numbering because there some automatic numbering
16:07:45 [Kim]
Kathy: also have people working on techniques and failures for these
16:08:05 [Kim]
Kathy: I'm still writing the rest of the success criteria. Plan to write that this weekend for some of the other ones so that next week we can review the understanding for the other success criteria
16:08:08 [Jan]
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16:09:31 [Kim]
Kathy: the other place where we change things based on our conversations over the last two weeks 2.4 touch target size 44 x 44 pixels at the default pixel size. The other one that goes with that where we left off talking last week is 2.5.5 touch target clearance – clearance of at least 48 pixels except when user has reduced default scale of content. This one we were talking about whether...
16:09:33 [Kim]
...it's necessary given we are already specifying a touch target size. Because if you have a touch target size of 44 do you need to be specifying
16:09:50 [Kim]
Determining origin of 48
16:11:32 [Kim]
Kathy: do we need both? Wouldn't the center already be specified by specifying touch target size
16:12:26 [Kim]
Alistair: specify visible
16:12:35 [Kim]
Jan: I agree
16:12:52 [Kathy]
2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets take up at least 48px x 48px of the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)
16:13:05 [Kim]
Kathy: still need to figure out 44 or 48
16:13:06 [Kathy]
2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets take up at least 44px x 44px of the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)
16:13:22 [Kim]
Alistair: 44
16:14:36 [Kim]
Alistair: measure 44 x 44 doesn't necessarily mean it has to be visible
16:14:38 [Jan]
2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets measure at least 44px x 44px on the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)
16:15:41 [Kim]
Jan: unless we have something which says touch targets can overlap– do we allow them to overlap, say small one on top of a large one and 44 x 44 chunk of the large invisible off to the side. Is that a loophole we want to prevent?
16:15:55 [Kim]
Alistair: that should be fine as long as 44 x 44 is available
16:16:16 [Kim]
Jan: has to be measured from the middle – if only a quarter is active and it's the right size but
16:16:33 [Kim]
Alistair: as long as it says 44 x 44 visible it doesn't matter that it's from the center, just big enough to be able to hit with your finger
16:16:50 [Kim]
Jan: center better?
16:17:07 [Kim]
Alistair: that's venturing into usability
16:17:18 [Kim]
Kathy: boils down to is there an accessibility issue if I have overlapping touch targets if they're big enough
16:17:51 [Kim]
Alistair: you obviously won't be able to see one very well – that's a bit of accessibility issue but it's kind of usability no one's going to design a site where you've got two buttons that will overlap each other
16:18:04 [Kim]
Kathy: I saw a lot of canvas stuff yesterday and it had overlapping stuff all over the place and never put it past people to do
16:18:21 [Kim]
Kathy: failure right now under 2.5.5 touch targets overlapping
16:18:48 [Kim]
Kathy: maybe that's not a actual failure that we want to look at, or maybe we need to adjust
16:19:01 [marcjohlic]
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16:19:28 [Kim]
Jan: if we said touch targets measure at least 44, and visual indicator says something is a button or touch target
16:20:38 [Kim]
Kathy: you measure 44 on the visual portion of the screen default viewport size –is that enough. If you have two areas that are greater than 44 by 44 but they overlap you still have 44 x 44 for each touch target
16:20:49 [Kim]
Alistair: I'll touch targets need to be identifiable as touch targets
16:20:56 [Kim]
Kathy: I think we've got that in a different section
16:21:15 [Jan]
2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets have a radius of at least 22px measured from the center of the visual indicator of the touch target, except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)
16:22:12 [Kathy]
2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets have a radius of at least 22px measured from the center of the visual indicator of the touch target at default viewport size
16:22:30 [Kim]
Alistair: radius implies round
16:22:38 [Kathy]
2.5.4 Touch Target Size: Touch targets have a size of at least 22px measured from the center of the visual indicator of the touch target at default viewport size
16:23:29 [Kim]
Jan: possible problem – imagine send button triangle on the screen. It's touch target size is the right size, 44 x 44, but the icon that marks the touch target is left justified in the touch target, so that most of his off to the right so the user who tries to touch that arrow could end up missing it if they are a little bit to the left
16:23:45 [Kim]
Alistair: what about the central portion of the touch target has to measure 44 x 44…
16:24:44 [Kim]
Kathy: what do you think Henny
16:24:46 [agarrison]
The central portion of the touch target measures least 44px x 44px of the visible display except when the user has reduced the default scale of content.
16:24:55 [Kim]
Henny: not sure
16:25:39 [Kathy]
2.5.4 The central portion of the touch target measures least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size
16:26:18 [Kim]
Alistair: if the visible display was 200 x 200 and this measures 44 it doesn't necessarily glue the two together
16:26:27 [Kim]
Kathy: we could write a failure for that situation though
16:26:46 [Kim]
Jan: maybe a definition of touch target would help
16:27:01 [Kim]
Kathy: definition of touch target would be good
16:27:27 [Kim]
Jan: a touch target that's underneath another touch target so that it no longer takes a touch is not a touch target, and that would rule out using that as part of your measurement
16:28:09 [Kim]
Kathy: is everyone happy with the language we have right now for 2.5.4?
16:28:26 [Kim]
Jan: playing devils advocate – are people going to ask with the central portion of the touch target is
16:28:33 [Kim]
Kathy: definition of that too?
16:28:40 [marcjohlic]
+1 (couple of typos in what was put in IRC, but +1 w/ the general idea)
16:29:53 [Kim]
Marc: visual display versus visible make a difference?
16:29:57 [jeanne]
+1 visible
16:30:01 [marcjohlic]
CORRECTED: 2.5.4 The central portion of the touch target measures at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size
16:30:22 [marcjohlic]
+1
16:30:28 [Kim]
+1
16:30:30 [HennyS]
+1
16:30:58 [Kim]
Alistair: still wondering about measures, what about consumes?
16:31:24 [Kim]
Kathy: we can clarify in the understanding document
16:31:33 [jeanne]
+1 for measures, consumes adds a new confusion
16:31:55 [jeanne]
+1 "is"
16:32:04 [Kim]
Marc: just leave out measures
16:32:09 [jeanne]
+1 for removing central portion
16:32:24 [Kim]
Jan: put central portion in another SC
16:32:31 [Jan]
2.5.4 The touch target measures at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size.
16:32:35 [marcjohlic]
2.5.4 The touch target is at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size
16:32:57 [Kim]
+1
16:33:31 [Kim]
Kathy: do we have to define visual display?
16:33:46 [Kim]
Jan: does a touch target become not a touch target when it's offscreen?
16:34:33 [Kim]
Jan: you can imagine AT that can take a touch somewhere and position it somewhere else
16:34:54 [Kim]
Marc: developer tools for size?
16:35:59 [Jan]
Possible defn of Touch Target: Region of the display that will accept a touch action. If a portion of a touch target is overlapped by another touch target such that it cannot receive touch actions, then that portion is not considered a touch target for purposes of touch target measurements.
16:35:59 [Kim]
Kathy: we are using pixels so we can specify in the CSS and specifying default viewport size specifically because that is where you would measure the 44 x 44 pixels and if default viewport size changes automatically adjusts for that. A developer would be able to define 44 x 44 pixels – makes it much easier. But the key there is that's default viewport size
16:36:22 [agarrison]
Should it be "A touch target" rather than "The touch target"
16:36:29 [Kim]
Kathy: we have display equals device with which is your standard default viewport size. As lie as you have that set the 44 x 44 pixels works
16:37:29 [marcjohlic]
2.5.4: A touch target is at least 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size
16:38:00 [Kim]
Discussing visible display
16:38:20 [Kathy]
+1
16:38:20 [marcjohlic]
+1
16:38:22 [jeanne]
+1
16:38:26 [HennyS]
+1
16:38:27 [Kim]
+1
16:38:28 [Jan]
+1
16:39:14 [Kathy]
Touch Target: Region of the display that will accept a touch action. If a portion of a touch target is overlapped by another touch target such that it cannot receive touch actions, then that portion is not considered a touch target for purposes of touch target measurements.
16:39:50 [Kim]
Jan: probably also requires a definition of touch action
16:40:18 [Kim]
Alistair: can we say designed to trigger a touch event
16:40:42 [Kim]
Jan: designed, that's the computational side – but from the user side they are taking an action
16:41:08 [Kim]
Kathy: I don't know – what do others think
16:41:30 [Kim]
Kathy: designed to trigger a touch event versus will accept a touch action
16:42:29 [Kim]
Alistair: touch action better, event could fire a keyboard event too
16:42:59 [Kim]
Kathy: is a pretty good with Jan's original language?
16:43:06 [Kim]
General agreement
16:43:08 [Kathy]
2.5.5 Touch Target Clearance: The center of each touch target has a distance of at least 44 pixels from the center of any other touch target, except when the user has reduced the default scale of content. (Level AA)
16:43:30 [Kim]
Kathy: proposal to remove touch target clearance – do you agree with removal of 2.5.5 right now as we have it in the document
16:43:35 [Kathy]
+1
16:43:36 [Jan]
+1
16:43:36 [agarrison]
Remove +1
16:43:39 [HennyS]
+1
16:43:41 [marcjohlic]
+1 to remove
16:43:45 [Kim]
+1 remove
16:43:46 [jeanne]
+1
16:44:12 [Kathy]
M022 Spacing between elements. Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping
16:44:21 [Kim]
Kathy: right now we have a technique for spacing between elements and we have a failure touch target overlapping. Should those move to the previous requirement?
16:44:32 [Kim]
Kathy: do we need those or should they be removed?
16:44:47 [Kim]
Jan: if they're large and overlap slightly that doesn't seem like a problem
16:45:08 [Kim]
Kathy: 2.5.4 failure would be if touch target is less than 44 x 44 pixels of the visible display, so if you had to touch targets that overlapped and it wasn't a 44 x 44 measurement
16:45:29 [Kim]
Jan: maybe touch targets overlapping such that one of them becomes less and 44 x 44
16:45:38 [Kathy]
Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping such that the touch target is less than 44px x 44px
16:46:14 [Kim]
Alistair: negative version of what we just added to the guidelines – don't necessarily need
16:46:27 [Kim]
Kathy: if we put that in is a failure it would help clarify when something of this nature is actually a failure
16:46:47 [Kathy]
Mxxx Failure: touch target is less than 44px x 44px
16:47:08 [Kathy]
Mxxx Failure: touch target is less than 44px x 44px at the default viewport size
16:47:35 [Kim]
Jan: clarity around this is in the glossary which is okay, but it helps also to have two failures
16:48:11 [Kim]
Jan: comes down to the size – one you have one by itself and it's not the right size. The second is failed because overlap
16:48:35 [Kim]
Alistair: more than 44 pixels on the screen passes, doesn't matter if it's overlapped
16:49:30 [Kim]
Alistair: just wondering whether we need to have the failure that says if you have two buttons overlapping and you take one below a certain size – because you would've automatically failed anyway
16:49:31 [Kathy]
Mxxx Failure: touch target is less than 44px x 44px at the default viewport size
16:49:41 [Kathy]
Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping such that the touch target is less than 44px x 44px
16:49:55 [Kim]
Kathy: these are the two failures for 2.5.4
16:50:18 [Kim]
Alistair first and second one are pretty much the same – if you fail the second one you failed the first one
16:50:49 [Kim]
Kathy: we want to clarify that if overlap touch sizes no longer 44 by 44 it's just clarity for developers
16:50:54 [Kathy]
Mxxx Failure: touch targets overlapping such that the visible touch target is less than 44px x 44px
16:51:32 [Kim]
Alastair: just write up a negative version of the success criteria?
16:51:47 [Kim]
Kathy: there are two scenarios one looking at one touch target and the other looking at two that are overlapping or adjacent
16:52:21 [agarrison]
Failure: A touch target is less than 44px x 44px of the visible display at the default viewport size
16:53:02 [Kim]
Kathy: Alistair suggesting combining two failures – thoughts
16:53:14 [Kim]
Jan: two failures very clear
16:54:26 [Kim]
Kathy: WCAG already difficult for some developers to understand – anytime we can add clarity it's better.
16:54:52 [Kim]
Topic: any other techniques or failures
16:55:02 [Kim]
Kathy: are there any other techniques or failures you think we should add?
16:56:07 [Kim]
Kathy: thoughts on A or AA for 2.5.4
16:56:32 [Kim]
Kathy: listed as AA should it be single A?
16:57:09 [jeanne]
+1 to AA
16:57:13 [Kim]
Alistair: consider it on the list?
16:57:28 [Kim]
Kathy: we will send out a note to the list for feedback on that
16:57:39 [Jan]
Jan: AA
16:58:01 [Kim]
Kathy: we will leave it at AA for now
16:58:51 [Kim]
Kathy: we only have one left 2.5.6 device manipulation, we will pick that up next week. Jon also put failure technique out there. I'd like us to review it on the list. If you have time please read that over and comment on it if you've got any changes so that we can also finalize that a next week's call
17:02:15 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:03:01 [Kim]
present+ Marc
17:03:07 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:07:11 [Kim]
rrsagent, bye
17:07:11 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items