IRC log of aria-apg on 2016-01-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:58:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:58:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-irc
17:58:22 [Michiel]
present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:00:43 [jongund]
jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:00:48 [LJWatson]
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18:01:24 [annabbott]
annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:02:50 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:02:57 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
18:03:00 [MichielBijl]
present+ Jon_Gunderson Leonie_Watson Matt_King James_Nurthen Michael Cooper
18:03:01 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:03:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:03:14 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:03:16 [MichielBijl]
present- Michael Cooper
18:03:17 [annabbott]
present +AnnAbbott
18:03:25 [MichielBijl]
present+ Michael_Cooper
18:03:27 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review example of radio group pattern https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/aria/jemma/practices/examples/radio/radio.html
18:03:27 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Continue review of sections 2.12 Dialog (Tooltip) and 2.22 Popup Help (aka Bubble Help)
18:03:27 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:03:40 [mck]
mck has joined #aria-apg
18:03:47 [jamesn]
Meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
18:04:02 [jamesn]
Happy New Year everyone
18:05:24 [jongund]
present +jongund
18:05:36 [jongund]
present+ jongund
18:06:13 [jongund]
thnaks
18:06:54 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:07:30 [annabbott]
scribe: AnnAbbott
18:07:30 [jamesn]
scribe: annabbott
18:09:40 [annabbott]
zakim, next item
18:09:40 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Review example of radio group pattern https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/aria/jemma/practices/examples/radio/radio.html" taken up [from jamesn]
18:09:42 [MichielBijl]
Teleconference cheat sheet: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet
18:09:58 [LJWatson]
zakim, agenda?
18:09:58 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:59 [Zakim]
1. Review example of radio group pattern https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/aria/jemma/practices/examples/radio/radio.html [from jamesn]
18:09:59 [Zakim]
2. Continue review of sections 2.12 Dialog (Tooltip) and 2.22 Popup Help (aka Bubble Help) [from jamesn]
18:09:59 [Zakim]
3. Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status [from jamesn]
18:10:26 [JF]
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18:10:32 [jamesn]
zakim, clear agenda
18:10:32 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
18:10:34 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review draft of landmark design pattern (John/Ann)
18:10:34 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar
18:10:34 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Discuss example development work in progress
18:10:34 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:10:42 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 1
18:10:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Review draft of landmark design pattern (John/Ann)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:10:53 [Birkir]
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18:11:18 [JF]
Present+ JF
18:12:42 [jamesn]
present+ AnnAbbott
18:12:54 [jongund]
https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html
18:13:43 [bgaraventa1979]
bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
18:14:07 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:15:37 [LJWatson]
Fragment ID for 2. Landmark design patterns https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#aria_landmark
18:17:19 [annabbott]
Matt thinks widgets should come first, then landmarks
18:18:10 [annabbott]
Ann does not agree
18:20:15 [annabbott]
Matt: start with an example page
18:22:17 [LJWatson]
q?
18:22:17 [annabbott]
Matt: refer to Section 4
18:22:38 [JF]
Q+ to ask about editorial of the content, specifically "it is imperative that all content reside in a semantically meaningful landmark or content will be orphaned and missed by the user."
18:22:58 [LJWatson]
q+ to ask about clarity of advice regarding HTML5.
18:29:10 [mck]
q?
18:30:18 [jamesn]
rrsq+
18:30:21 [jamesn]
q+
18:31:58 [annabbott]
JF: questions whether all content must be within appropriate landmark
18:32:14 [annabbott]
Ann: guidance per RSchwerdtfeger
18:34:49 [jamesn]
q?
18:35:05 [LJWatson]
ack me
18:35:05 [Zakim]
LJWatson, you wanted to ask about clarity of advice regarding HTML5.
18:35:14 [LJWatson]
ack JF
18:35:14 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask about editorial of the content, specifically "it is imperative that all content reside in a semantically meaningful landmark or content will be orphaned and
18:35:17 [Zakim]
... missed by the user."
18:35:36 [annabbott]
Matt: browsers and screen readers all handle landmarks differently
18:35:47 [mck]
q?
18:37:11 [mck]
Without landmark roles, keyboard navigation is limited to form controls and anchor elements via "endless" tab navigation. The use of landmarks roles support
18:37:15 [annabbott]
JamesN: all content musts be in landmarks IF using landmarks
18:37:52 [annabbott]
Matt: landmarks don't help kbd nav except for screen reader users
18:39:59 [annabbott]
JGund: landmarks should not be required
18:40:21 [annabbott]
JGund: landmarks do not solve kbd issues
18:40:45 [annabbott]
JGund: desire for something simple about landmarks - how to balance/support?
18:41:48 [annabbott]
LWatson: what complexity?
18:42:33 [annabbott]
JGund: test tools have lots of rules re: landmarks and HTML 5 has added to complexity
18:43:15 [jongund]
http://fae20.cita.illinois.edu/rulesets/ARIA_STRICT/rc/#id_h2_ID_LANDMARKS
18:43:30 [annabbott]
JF: problem is difference betwen rule and best practice
18:44:06 [annabbott]
JF: difference between MUST and SHOULD
18:44:36 [annabbott]
Matt: no MUST in APG tho required is loosely used
18:45:49 [annabbott]
Matt: pivot point is with ARIA 1.1 and our goal is publish APG with ARIA 1.1
18:46:22 [annabbott]
Matt: APG is guidance, not rules
18:47:22 [annabbott]
Matt: Jon/Ann make bulleted list of proposed items as basis of next discussion
18:48:12 [annabbott]
JGund: rework current so there is something for others to comment/review
18:49:47 [annabbott]
JF: not table of contents, but table of structure
18:50:24 [annabbott]
Matt: lead with examples where ever possible
18:53:37 [annabbott]
JGund: example pages is good idea
18:55:52 [annabbott]
Matt: no meeting on Jan 18
18:56:07 [annabbott]
Matt: review landmarks on Jan 25
19:05:10 [annabbott]
JGund: doesn't think we want to be in business of listing/cataloging tools
19:06:06 [annabbott]
Ann: agrees
19:07:23 [annabbott]
JGund: instead rely on/propose to W3C tools group
19:07:53 [annabbott]
Matt: would recommend getting rid of toolkit references
19:08:11 [JF]
+1 to BRyan's suggestion
19:09:12 [annabbott]
Bryan: simply include URL to W3C tools group
19:10:02 [JF]
Bryan, shadi's email is: shadi@w3.org
19:14:58 [JF]
ACTION: bgaraventa1979 to reach out to Shadi to establish a link for ARIA tools to be included in the APG due in 2 weeks
19:14:58 [trackbot]
Error finding 'bgaraventa1979'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
19:15:27 [JF]
ACTION: Brian Garaventa to reach out to Shadi to establish a link for ARIA tools to be included in the APG due in 2 weeks
19:15:27 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Brian'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
19:15:30 [annabbott]
zachim, take up item 3
19:15:56 [Birkir]
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19:15:57 [annabbott]
zachim, take up agenda item 3
19:16:00 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, take up item 3
19:16:00 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Discuss example development work in progress" taken up [from jamesn]
19:16:07 [JF]
ACTION: garaventa to reach out to Shadi to establish a link for ARIA tools to be included in the APG due in 2 weeks
19:16:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1764 - Reach out to shadi to establish a link for aria tools to be included in the apg due in 2 weeks [on Bryan Garaventa - due 2016-01-11].
19:16:44 [bgaraventa1979]
John, I think my nick is bgaraventa
19:17:34 [annabbott]
JGund: Jemma isn't here today so hasn't had a chance to meet
19:19:13 [annabbott]
Matt: look at menu and radio group next week (1/11)
19:19:44 [annabbott]
JGund: will work with Jemma on Friday
19:21:16 [annabbott]
Matt: Michiel - will you be ready to review alert next week?
19:21:29 [annabbott]
Michiel: yes
19:21:58 [jamesn]
1
19:23:22 [annabbott]
Matt: next week toolbar review
19:24:47 [annabbott]
Michiel: should we have breadcrumb design pattern?
19:25:01 [annabbott]
JamesN: yes
19:25:27 [JF]
Matt asked about "toolbar" - I don't see a reference in WCAG, but UAAG references it as a single word: 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The user can have any direct commands in the UA user interface (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) be presented with their associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA)
19:26:06 [MichielBijl]
Here is a link to the GitHub issue for bread crumbs: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/130
19:26:51 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:26:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
19:26:55 [JF]
[discussion] editorial is to use "toolbar" (all one word)
19:26:59 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
19:27:07 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:28:31 [annabbott]
zakim, bye
19:28:31 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Cooper, jongund, JF, AnnAbbott, Bryan_Garaventa
19:28:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:29:23 [MichielBijl]
present- LJWatson
19:29:26 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
19:29:39 [MichielBijl]
present- jongunf
19:29:41 [MichielBijl]
present- jongund
19:29:56 [MichielBijl]
chair: Matt_King
19:30:11 [MichielBijl]
rssagent, make minutes
19:30:30 [MichielBijl]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:30:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl