... welcome to Hiroshi
... he sent introduction
to mailing list
... we're happy he's here
... minutes from last week
<mgylling> http://www.w3.org/2015/11/02-dpub-minutes.html
mgylling: any objections to approving the minutes from last week?
(silence)
scribe: approved
scribe: Topic: update on 2nd WD of DPUB-ARIA module
... when was fpwd?
tzviya: june or july, a long time ago
mgylling: Matt, Tzviya, and I are
scrambling to get a set of changes into that draft
... Matt had hoped to do those things today
... but it was delayed
... Tziya, can you walk us thru changes
tzviya: we added a few roles that weren't
in FPWD
... colophon
... credit and credits
... epigraph
... errata
... I think that's all that was new
... most were from epub structural semantic vocab
... other changes: aligning with ARIA 1.1
... glossary and glossterm will point to different spots
... discussion about noteref, glossref, etc.
... still a work in progress
... we're hoping for a 3rd WD
... with additional code samples
mgylling: big question is about roles on
links
... epub has been doing that (noteref etc)
... useful for AT
... being able to relay nature of link to user
... but there are production-time use cases for what kind of link
... but this hasn't been done in ARIA at all
... so there's a huge discussion about whether @role should be extended
to cover link natures
... or use @rel or something new
... so these are not ready for use
... we don't need a formal decision
... we just want general support for a new WD
... this is a good time to think about next steps
... you mentioned 3rd WD
... one question we get from epub users is about all the other terms
that are not in ARIA
... there's a big difference in size
... epub vocab has some terms that will probably go away but there are
lots more terms
... how do we see the evolution
... so there's not such a large discrepancy
tzviya: we thought you'd solve it ;)
mgylling: this is not 2 different vocabs
... in the logical sense. we want zero discrepancy in the end
... we've refined some definitions in w3c space, and are backporting
... I suppose we just have to push on
... w3c vocab will have to grow, IDPF vocab will have to shrink
... and find the golden middle road
... that's easy to say, but how do we do it?
... we should remind ARIA WG and ourselves that the 3rd WD should not
only have code samples but bring over more terms
... and we need to solve link problem
tzviya: there's some tension with ARIA
group about how many terms we throw in
... do all of the epub terms belong in aria, or is there a better home
for them?
... is @rel appropriate, etc
... even though it's nice they all live in 1 place in epub
... to avoid abusing aria we may need to make sure we're not dumping
terms there for convenience
mgylling: any other questions
tzviya: I have q for group
... I know several organizations who want to use this vocab
... will other orgs please reach out to the list if you plan to use the
vocab
mgylling: we don't need formal decision
... it's basically an update
... we need to record general agreement to publish with changes we've
mentioned
... any objections?
(silence)
mgylling: sounds good to me
Resolution: publish new WD of DPUB-ARIA
mgylling: there's a request from csswg for
DPUB to provide detailed and extensive examples of typographic issues
... like hyphenation and table alignment
... why don't we just expand latinreq
... but they want test cases, long lists of all variations, etc
Florian: I'm not sure I'd describe this as
test cases
... when csswg is evaluating how to solve a problem
... we have to look how things fall apart
... having examples of how things should work
... and access to people who wrote example
... what if window is too small, or too big--what would be a good
fallback
... it's hard to discuss in abstract
... especially when css folks aren't experts
... what specifically are you trying address?
... a corpus of examples
... would be good
<mgylling> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/
Florian: JLreq is describing the print
status quo
... rather than specifics of what we want
... useful as a reference
... but if you want to pinpoint a specific issue
... then the corpus of examples is useful
mgylling: how would such material look
... screenshots of table alignment as they appear in textbooks
Florian: annotated screenshots, with intent
... since CSS has to work regardless of font, screen size, etc
... have to deal with corner cases and error cases
... more so than in print oriented
... as then doc author can fix, but in css that's not the case
... annotated screenshots with descriptions is a good thing, along with
a champion
... Dave can be that person, and I can too, depending on topic
mgylling: what's the priority order
... who would do the work of the corpus
... I understand better now
... and everyone at TPAC already knew this ;)
ivan: Rossen referred to screenshots
mgylling: how do we establish priority
... how do we get resources
https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-4/#character-alignment
dauwhe: note how technical some of these issues are
<tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
tzviya: we do have the document for prioritization
Florian: that prioritization includes the
line grid
... which is already specified
... I will be gathering requirements from i18n on inline grid stuff
mgylling: as you said, Tzviya, the
priorities document exists
... but is so big
... but where to start
<astearns> there may be some self-selected prioritization indicated by the time people in the group are willing to put towards collecting examples
mgylling: Dave specified decimal alignment in tables
Florian: on initial letter, do you feel like you have all the info you need
dauwhe: good with Latin, no info on Arabic, OK on indic, need more info on CJK
mgylling: how do we go forward
... do we have a subgroup
dauwhe: there is a pagination / layout subgroup
mgylling: ask for specific volunteers for particular areas
tzviya: we have new people on the call with
knowledge
... let's get a volunteer for examples of table alignment
Hiroshi_skk: we have examples around
character grids and CJK language learning
... will send to i18n list
tzviya: can you collect examples about table alignment
Hiroshi_skk: collecting info is good
Florian: Hiroshi is discussing inline grid character alignment, which is a separate topic from table alignment
Hiroshi_skk: Let me know
tzviya: anyone else who has examples of table alignment. I have some but I'm not going to volunteer
mgylling: any other volunteers for table
alignment?
... assuming we're starting with this
... any volunteers for any other areas
volunteers of the world, unmute yourselves!
mgylling: we should reach out and crowd source
Florian: this is working for char grid
... hanging punctuation use case is on the same list
... the same group of people would be look at that
... sound like a good approach
... I wasn't there when priority list was written, but that presumes
someone felt strongly about things
TimCole: on the bigger document we cover a
lot of ground--math etc
... the idea here is to focus, but I'm concerned that there may be
overlaps
... alignment in tables v alignment in matrices
... are there commonalities
... like math and table alignment
<astearns> its a good question, and common requirements should probably bump priority, but I'd like to see specific examples from each rather than trying to devise a common feature that would work generally
dauwhe: tables are a black art in browsers
Florian: maybe we need a new, non-insane
table mode
... fixing things is possible, building things on top of is probably not
mgylling: we do have lots of regrets today
... so chairs can think about outreach, etc
... Hiroshi asked about priority of char alignment in tables
... we thought we'd start with something, it happened to be table
alignment
... we won't say no to volunteers
Hiroshi_skk: I'll try to find JP examples
Florian: maybe start a wiki page on what we
want screenshots for
... so there's a place to put things
ivan: depends
... at the end of the day this will be put together by dave
... wiki page or github
NoelTanner: wiki page may be best option
... problems with music, images, text
... so I could post examples on a whim
mgylling: wiki is more whim-friendly
<tzviya> the wiki exists already: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/Latinreq
dauwhe: we're just happy to get example
tzviya: I'll add header right now
mgylling: we'll get back to this on the next call or the call after that
mgylling: The CG
has requested information about existing methods and documentation for
publishing
... can you translate?
tzviya: we know about EPUB and PDF
... the POM should work across different kinds of publications
... Daniel wants to learn about different publication types
... JATS, BITS, whatever else there is
... so the CG can familiarize itself with the formats
mgylling: is he requesting info about XML grammars?
tzviya: any publication formats common in the industry
ivan: the idea right now is to define POM as a general API that can be used with various things
mgylling: that's why I was asking about JATS and BITS, they are not consumable publication formats
ivan: I am not sure
... after the processing of a JATS file, what is produced?
... what is the publication format? Is it html5 on the web?
... the JATS file itself is not what Daniel is looking for
mgylling: it's more about publication
formats as when they reach users, like PDF and EPUB
... what are other such formats that are alive today?
ivan: Kindle format
tzviya: that's very public
mgylling: there are manga and comic formats
... sequences of bitmaps etc
<tzviya> send information to public-pom@w3.org
mgylling: so anyone who knows about
publication formats, send info to public-pom@w3.org
... should we give an action item to have someone send KF8 info to
Daniel?
tzviya: I can do that. What happened to the action tracker?
<scribe> ACTION: Tzviya to send KF8 links to POM CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/11/09-DPUB-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Send kf8 links to pom cg [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2015-11-16].
mgylling: any other questions about Poms?
... it looks like we're done for today
... next week's agenda will be PWP document
... then we'll focus on identifiers, and their harmonization between PWP
and EPUB
<ivan> mail on the changes
mgylling: it will be lots of fun
... and we'll touch on volunteers for CSS examples
... thanks everyone.
<ivan> trackbot, end telcon