<yatil> http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/
Eric: Current mockup, has not changed in any way you can see since we last reviewed. Changes are underneath, with WCAG data there. As the data changes, we can easily import, nice connection there.
... next steps are collecting data for individual SCs and proceed with tagging.
... another round of review will then happen to consider what we may be missing.
Shawn: Questions or comments from the group?
Shawn: Will table this discussion since we have so many regrets this week. Won't meet again until Sept 4. So please plan to attend at least the first part of that. If you can't attend, be sure to read those minutes because this will be important info about working together going forward.
<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/writing.html
Shawn: Based on survey and input on combining the tips, we have a proposal for which tips to include. Review this list and make sure you are OK with this as a final decision.
... We can add the question to the survey for this week to give everyone the chance to weigh in.
Kevin: In the Keep clear and concise tip there is a suggestion for an addition to the example to illustrate the point. So this may not be quite final.
Shawn: From your POV then, Writing is ready for a thorough review?
Kevin: Yes except for those two things
Shawn: Since we are not meeting next week, we could include it in the current survey, will determine later.
<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/writing.html#provide-text-alternatives-for-images
Shawn: As you recall, we have had a couple of passes at this. This is the current proposal. We are not trying to wordsmith today but check in on the general concept. Is this a good example? Any concerns or comments?
... minus chair hat, I think it is a great, great, great example and commend Kevin for his persistance in coming up with it.
... next point is that the exact image might be problematic.
Kevin: The only place I found this was in a product user manual. For copyright purposes may not be able to use this exact image.
James: I could try to check in with designers on my team to see if I could get them to redesign more generically.
Jon: Or I could give it a try.
Shawn: I would slightly prefer for Jon to do it since you are part of EO.
Jon: OK I will try it.
... and can have a draft today.
Shawn: if you get an image today or early next week can you get it in place before you go on Geek Week?
Kevin: Yes
<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/writing.html#keep-content-clear-and-concise
Shawn: What do people think of the idea of inlcuding an image?
<yatil> +1
<James> +1
<kevin> +1
Brent: This very nicely illustrates the power of the techniques between the left and the improved right side. Having an image will really bring it home that the impact of making things clear is a large one.
Jon: I have a concern with providing an image. We are talking about text and an image kind of changes the subject.
Kevin: You could use iconography for the stages and in that way support the text.
Jon: It muddles the information we are trying to convey. We want people to understand the need to write clearly. Not trying to make them think they need illustrations for that purpose.
Sharron: +1 to Jon's point
Jon: The context will be very confusing, even for those who benefit from having an image.
... if we include an image, it should be about the tip description, not the accident examples
... the example that we are trying to provide is to keep content clear and concise. If you illustrate the accident it can cloud and confuse instead.
Brent: The images have to be about the example or it makes no sense.
Jon: Oh OK I did not see the last part of the tip, now it has more relevence. But I am not sure I agree that we should include that here.
James: Not wordsmithing, but should we say 'if appropriate?' I saw as an illustration a cartoon car crash with the process explained.
Shawn: Can you put your suggestions in GitHub?
Sharron: maybe images should be its own point... but as you know I don't pay much attention to icons. In fact sometimes, I don't even see them.
Brent: I hear that point in that it takes the focus beyond writing clearly. It may need clarification from Kevin, but the purpose would be to let people know that there is a flow to the process and that there is an outcome. The image would further illustrate and clarify that flow. You can in that way make it more clear for people who are visually oriented.
... but I completely get what you guys are saying about including the illustration.
Shawn: James has suggested "where appropriate" added to the tip. The other part is to consider, as you are writing, whether imagery will reinforce the clarity of your point.
Shadi: If we add to the text where appropriate and do not include the illustration?
<jon> If you include "As appropriate," then this is appropriate
Shawn: I would like to propose that we don't just say "as appropriate" but something even more tentative such as "consider including illustration to make the point even more clear."
... next point is does this fit all together? A bit of history, there was never a separate tip for this but it was something that came up when we were thinking about combining the tips.
... and it was included in the mockup that we approved.
... if we change this point to be much more suggestive than imperative, to illustrate the difference should we include an illustration?
... so what do we want to do at this point?
Brent: I would like to hear Kevin's opinion.
Kevin: My personal perspective is that the tip itself is to keep content clear and concise. In that sense an illustration can significantly contribute to clarity. I think it belongs here and is not strong enough to stand alone as a separate tip.
Shawn: So to bring it out gives it more attention which we do not want.
... if we edit the text and edit it to align more closely to writing, do people approve of leaving it here?
Sharron: +1
Jon: My concern is that if you leave the text part of the tip in this spot, then the image actually should be included.
<Brent> I agree with toning down the language and leaving a bullet in with a supporting image.
<shadi> +1
Sharron: +1
<shadi> [[Principle 3 Readable - Guideline 3.1 Make text content readable and understandable - Using images, illustrations, video, audio, or symbols to clarify meaning (future link)]]
<yatil> +1
RESOLUTION: Reword last bullet to be more optional and add illustration to example.
Shawn: We will need an edit pass on both sides of the example. Wording on left side can be made much more wordy, change the bullets, etc.
... feel free to make the first one even worse and second on even crisper
Sharron: I have suggestions for those edits.
Shawn: Anything more on the Writing Tips?
<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/developing.html#avoid-captcha-where-possible
Shawn: We resolved to keep the tip with some editing. We want to review this from the conceptual perspective. Kevin what do you want us to consider?
Kevin: The resolution was to connect the Tip on CAPTCHA to the better techniques for providing that kind of function. Wanted people's thoughts on how well this met that expectation. Thoughts on current approach?
Brent: I like the approach
Jon: I love it
Lydia: I like the simplicity, the suggestions for making it more accessible
Shawn: Any concerns?
<yatil> I really like it! (minor wording)
Shawn: The first sentence, I wondered if we need a more specific point to be made about "problems for many people"
<shadi> [[maybe say "create *usability* problems ..."?]]
<shawn> create problems -> are difficult or impossible to use ?
Eric: One thing that comes to mind is that the statement is very correct, it makes no distinction for people with or w/o disability.
Shawn: this will be on the next survey, so you can be thinking about it and make edits
<yatil> "CAPTCHAs are hard or impossible to solve for many people."
Shadi: I support such an approach and give a bit more context with "usability" but not to add examples.
Shawn: Read through GitHub issues for addiitonal input, we want your thoughts and may get input outside as well.
Kevin: I like the way it is going, it is succinct and reflects the current input. If you have slight changes, please do put them in GitHub.
Sharron:For new EO participants, can they access the GitHub training?
Eric: It's not posted yet, I need to get it captioned.
Sharron:Knowbility can help with that.
Shawn: Some GeekWeek projects have to do with providing more GitHub help, too.
Shawn: I am hestitant to make final decisions today since we have so few people.
Sharron: I think we should decide now.
<shawn> Designing page <http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/designing.html>
Shawn: I would like everyone to look at the page first. While the first two are about the color, the remainder are about interaction design.
Shadi: We can make tentative decisions and allow others to reopen if they are not here to participate today. We can add to the survey I read the minutes and agree with decisions made - or - have addiitonal comments for consideration
<shawn> icons page http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/sample.html
<shawn> survey results https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EOWG-14Aug2015/results#xdesign1
Shawn: Based on survey results, we should rule out the paintbrush. The next two are not as clear. Mix of prefer/OK/concerns for each. One concern with the wireframe is that it does not convey creativity but all other concerns had to do with how it scales (small size) Read the results and we will discuss
<shawn> Brent: in survey "I don't think the smallest size is too much of a problem. The larger sizes are introduce in the Overview and will be on the heading of the page." Brent?
Brent: Since you start on the overview page you will see the icon first in full size, then the medium one on the page itself and the samll one won't be used until it's in the side bar menu - I don't see it as a problem.
... prefer strongly this to the paintbrush.
Shawn: Most of the concern had to do with clarity of icon. Jon created that based on our input as a first pass. So if we look at it, are there ways to make it a bit different when it scales down?
Jon: I could get rid of the pictures inside of the boxes to simplfy the lines, just the three boxes on the tiny one.
... make a bit more white space around it
... will send to Kevin my recommendation
Shawn: Given that option, what are people's thoughts about using the wireframe icon for Designing?
Sharron: +1
Eric: I am OK with that choice, no strong feelings about it.
<jon> *+1*
Brent: I would ask that the boxes remain unchanged even if the pictures are removed...for consistency.
<jon> Sure.
Shawn: I think the medium one should be the one that is optimized since it will be on the page heading
<Brent> +1 to Shawn
RESOLUTION: Use the wireframe icon for Designing and work on making it more clear when displayed in all sizes.
<shawn> results for bug: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EOWG-14Aug2015/results#xeval
<shawn> magnifying glass over computer (4th one) http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/sample.html
Shawn: everyone either liked or were OK with the bug. A few brought up the monitor with magnifying glass.
... any thoughts about that icon?
Sharron: Magnifier tends to be associated with Search
<kevin> +1 to search association
Eric: The bug is so simple and clean. It is a good option.
Shawn: People may remember my mild concern that accessibility people are too often perceived as nitpicky and the magnifier enforces that.
Lydia: I am OK with the bug if that's what people like
<shawn> ... I actually like it
RESOLUTION: Use the bug for the Evaluating icon
Shawn: Megaphone still needs to change from electric one to standard cheerleader megaphone
... anything else for today?
Shawn: There is a draft of the weekly survey but we will be making a few tweaks to it and send an email when it is updated. Writing Tips are very close to being ready for final review. Two things...
... in clear and concise, we will change wording of last bullet and beef up example.
... reminder that the Final Review is the last chance for input before the review for approval.
... we have already done a final review for Designing. Changes have been put into weekly survey. If new folks have comments on that, please submit them now.
... status of Developing Tips is that they are not quite ready for final review but very close.
... sooner is better than later if you have comments at this point.
Kevin: Yes this is all good
Shawn: We have been talking about including a question in the survey about Learn More and the example presentation.
Brent: You had us look at the combining tip, did we come to resolution on that?
Shawn: Yes it is combined into one
... anything else?
... Great, we are adjourned. Default is that we are NOT meeting next week, during Geek Week?