See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 13 August 2015
<alan_smith> hard for me to take notes on this with mobile
<scribe> scribe: marcjohlic
zakim take up item 1
AS: Started working on 007,
believe I sent it in to Kathy or Jeanne
... Was trying to find something in WCAG along the lines that
AT support should not turn off things
DM: You might be thinking about non-interferance. Will look for that
AS: Yes if you can send that along then I will continue to work on it
<jeanne> scribe: jeanne
Marc: I had a question on M22 - Spacing between elements. I thought we were including this in touch target size and spacing.
<marcjohlic> JS: Think we should include it in the work that Detlev was doing - the new 2.5 Guidelines
<marcjohlic> JS: Believe it might be 2.5.1
<David> non interference understanding requirement 5 http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-conformance-requirements-head
Marc: does that need to be separated or rolled into the work on 2.5?
jeanne: I think it should be a technique under 2.5.1
<marcjohlic> JS: Keep in mind the difference in level. Detlev has been working at the Succes Criteria level - M22 is the technique level
<marcjohlic> JS: So M22 would be a way of meeting 2.5.1
<scribe> scribenick: marcjohlic
DM: I have a suggestion on a
technique - when you have an autofill similar to twitter, with
VoiceOver on, once you get to the bottom of the window you
can't get any further
... Not sure if it's a non-interferance issue or not
... They way they fixed it was kind of a hack - where they just
loaded the whole page at once - which you can't always do
JA: If you can send an example app, i can take a look
DM: Sure - unfortunately the way they fixed it was just by taking it off. I'll send an email to the group to capture it
KP: Jonathan sent around new keyboard shortcuts for iOS 9
<Kim> http://www.guidingtech.com/46124/new-physical-keyboard-shortcuts-ipad-ios-9/
KP: Found this interesting
because we are seeing more and more apps with this - and this
is at the OS level
... Speech users are excited to see this show up
... What are out thoughts around keyboard shortcuts and
mobile
JA: Think it indicates they're
important - good that we stood our ground and said they are
requred
... Maybe even talk about customizing keyboard shortcuts
AS: On Android you can customize some of the keys and keyboard shortcuts already
KP: From a speech perspective -
and talkign about customizing keyboard shortcuts - and I think
that's where we need to get to because different disabilities
have different needs
... Single key shortcuts are a huge interference for speech
users - and believe also for keyboard only users. Customizing
them is the easy solution
... Also the key to connecting speech into the system. Speech
can follow along w/ the mouse or the keyboard - if the plumbing
is there. Customization is important to that plumbing
... Customization makes sense for a lot of reasons
JA: Kind of goes back to WCAG in
general. You bring up a good point, if there was only single
letter keystrokes it will cause problems
... We have some advisories in 2.1.1 Keyboard around keyboard
shortcuts - but we should look at updating them
... Need to pay attention to techniques that apply to other
task forces (cognitive, mobile, etc) - and make sure we're in
sync
KP: Email thread on touch
<Kim> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Jul/thread.html
<jeanne> scribe: jeanne
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Jul/thread.html
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Jul/0030.html
<Kathy> Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: Make all functionality available via touch. 2.5.1 Touch: All functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures. (Level A) 2.5.2 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: Interface elements that require a single tap or a long press as input will only trigger the corresponding event when the finger is lifted inside that element. (Level A) 2.5.3 Modified Touch: When touch input behavior is modified by built-in[CUT]
Kathy: You can have touch working without the screenreader, but then they won't work with the screen reader. That is more on the application side. Especially on the test procedures, we need to make sure that they work with and without screenreader.
<David> Suggested new Success Criteria Screen reader https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Aug/0009.html
Alan: Does that relate to M007?
David: sent a proposal for a new success criteria: Pages that can be scrolled using a system gesture can be scrolled using
the corresponding screen reader scroll gesture
Jon: I think we should broaden this beyond success criteria. Talk about alternative interaction. If the system uses alternative interaction, then the same capability is available in that alternative interaction.
David: Does anyone see screenreaders developing a app for mobile devices?
Kathy: I have talked with Freedom
Scientific about it.
... WHy an SC that focuses on scrolling, rather than gestures
in general?
David: This is more of a
technique, or a failure technique.
... If a gesture does a function, than a screenreader can
accomplish the same function.
Kathy: it is more than gesture. It is tactile, tilt scrolling, etc.
Alan: Android has taps and shakes.
Kim: The state of the phone makes a difference. A in-air gesture, a speech command.
ALan: G10 is related.
s/ALan: G10 is related. /Jon: G10 is related.
scribe: you can programmatically
control the device
... It is mapped to 4.1.2
... 4.1.2 doesn't quite go far enough to allow the AAPI to
control the device.
... there are equivalents to some of these are equivalent to
these for native apps in iOS.
Kathy: When we look at 4.1.2 and
mobile, we have the opportunity to create mobile success
criteria
... in the WCAG meeting, we also discussed 3.@@ and
opportunities for mobile techniques and success criteria
Jon: Maybe 4.1.3
David: It's great that everything
is reported, but now we have to make the device operable with
assistant technologies.
... You turn on voice over and nothing works.
... I want to talk with someone who works in the Android and
iOS code. Why is it going wrong? Why are the gestures not
porting over to the screenreader?
Kathy: We could partner with some
member companies where we know people. Example of Pearson who
just hired a mobile developer.
... Jeanne, can we ask for support from member companies.
<Kim> Jeanne: best way is personal contacts
Jeanne: I think we have to ask people personally. THere isn't a formal mechanism to request assistance.
Kathy: We can get info from the
charters, from the companies that expressed interest.
... Deque has the Accessibility 101 with information for
developers.
Jon: I can bring something in. It
depends on the platform. iOS sends a doubletap to a coordinate
on the screen. You can change that programmatically, to route
that command to a different location.
... it's an issue with reading order, or the screenreader not
realizing the page has changes - event notification.
David: The problem I reached last week was endless scroll, where iOS screenreader reached the bottom of the screen and couldnt' go any further.
Jon: You could get a 3-finger
scroll to continue.
... 4 finger scroll is to move to the top or bottom of the
page
Alan: sometimes I need to 3 finger scroll left or right.
Jon: Programmatically you have to
set the increment and decrement for sliders or scrolling, so if
you have a custom control and if you don't set the information
properly, the scrolling won't work.
... we need to set up a test page and use phone gap to test
it.
Kim: 2.5.1, 2 & 3. Are we good with these? Is there something missing?
Kathy: Some are more specific than I think of for a success criteria. Especially 2.5.2. That may be a Technique within 2.5.1. I need to think about it more.
Jeanne: I think it is too narrow.
Kathy: a next step would be to
take this and put Techniques under this, then it might help
focusing exactly what the success criteria should be.
... I'm concerned about tilt scroll, sensors and other input
devices. I think we need to think in more general terms so we
encompass all of the issues together.
... We have to keep plugging things in and see how it fits
together.
... If we plug things in, we can have a deeper discussion.
Kim: when I think about speech, I think of a variety of ways to express it.
<Kim> variety of things that need to be accessed by speech…
Kathy: I'll set up a wiki page. Please continue discussion on the list.
Kim: Feel free to start an email thread.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/they way/the way/ Succeeded: s/interferance/interference/ FAILED: s/ALan: G10 is related. /Jon: G10 is related./ Found Scribe: marcjohlic Inferring ScribeNick: marcjohlic Found Scribe: jeanne Inferring ScribeNick: jeanne Found ScribeNick: marcjohlic Found Scribe: jeanne Inferring ScribeNick: jeanne Scribes: marcjohlic, jeanne ScribeNicks: marcjohlic, jeanne Present: jeanne marcjohlic Kim Kathy Found Date: 13 Aug 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-mobile-a11y-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]