Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19 Mar 2015

See also: IRC log


Tzviya, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Michael_Cooper, ShaneM, Susann_Keohane, pkra


<trackbot> Date: 19 March 2015

<richardschwerdtfeger> Pagination is done dynamically for reflowable epubs – basically the reading system renders the whole document as a single page behind the scenes and then displays that rendered content by portions that will fit the viewport – so an abstract (or any content) may span across these virtual pages but remain a single navigable unit of content behind the scenes. These are the documents we’re primarily targeting for the roles.

<richardschwerdtfeger> Fixed-layouts are another story. In an fxl publication, the author has to handle the problem of the hard document breaks in the middle of paragraphs, lists, sections, etc. Typically this is done by stripping container structures like sections and working at the text level. (Indesign uses divs and spans to position content on the page, for example, so there often is no structure to begin with.)

<richardschwerdtfeger> My understanding of aria landmarks is that they are not what we equate with sections that go in the table of contents. Forewords, chapters, abstracts, glossary, appendixes and all the major sections of an epub are simple content structures of a document that you should navigate to by the table of contents. If we make abstract a landmark, then a reader could jump past a lot of important content for no particularly good reason.

<richardschwerdtfeger> And apologies for rambling on, but additional confusion for me is that what we consider landmarks are important structural sections like the table of contents, index, glossary, etc., but these are typically dispersed across multiple documents. Assigning as an aria landmark role isn’t helpful in that case, as they are not navigable to within a single document. But I suppose they could be if you create a single document publication. But then

<richardschwerdtfeger> shouldn’t we be listing many more sections as landmarks, and how do we deal with publications often containing more than one of these?

<janina> Thumbs down on fixed layout!

rich: to me, ARIA landmarks don't make a lot of sense in the context of a book
... should we have the concept of book landmarks?

tzviya: is the point to generate a book TOC?

Janina: it's very useful to be able to go to a list and access the desired element and return the place on list

tzviya: in summary: requirements are that there is a navigational elements that allows user to access list of terms
... and it would be great for browsers to allow user to return to same point in list that exited

<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to suggest another example of a guide

ShaneM: Another example would be books with multiple guides, e.g. abbreviated toc for different audiences

Janina: annotations guide

Rich: superclass is definitely Regions, want to know when enter and exit
... What should be included in Guide/Landmarks?
... Would there ever be a generic region within a book?

Tzviya: yes

Rich: Should there be something between Region and these roles?
... For example, what should Superclass of chapter be?

ShaneM: I don't think we want to introduce new abstract classes

Rich: Would you call these landmarks?
... role="section" is largely ignored
... recommends that all are superclass Region

ShaneM: Region is subclass of Section
... it has no specific states and properties
... semantically region and section are the same

Rich: Would it be more meaningful to make chapter a subclass of Landmark

ShaneM: that means that it inherits the semantic behavior of landmarks
... Is a chapter always a landmark?

tzviya: it depends how AT interprets landmarks

Rich: in ARIA 1.1 elements with role="landmark" have subclass of section
... not all <section>s can be landmarks
... authors must give each element with role="region" a brief label

<section role="chapter" label="foo">


in order for elements to be in AT-landmarks must include aria-label

it doesn't make much of a difference if elements like glossary, etc if it's landmarks or region


tzviya: what is your recommendation?

rich: make them landmarks


<pkra> huh?

<pkra> I'm here.

abstract: recommend section

debate about meaning of contentInfo

Rich: contentInfo is a subClass of landmark. If don't want abstract to be a landmark, change to section

afterword subclass landmark

bibliography, could also add superclass of landmark (see http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#grid for example)

rich: a required descendant of bibliography is biblioentry
... must mention that

chapter superclass = landmark

ShaneM: suggests Cover superclass role="none" or landmark (with longdesc)

epilogue could be landmark

fwd landmark

<ShaneM> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#complementary

Rich: help is now "compelementary"

compelementary is a subclass of landmark

consider making this region, so that it's not a landmark

ShaneM: help is a very generic name, concerned about naming

Rich: recommends "note" instead

<ShaneM> "usetip?" "tip?" "protip?" "bagel"

Rich: we can leave this on as placeholder
... TS to add issues about naming

<pkra> gotta run.

Summary of Action Items

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Default Present: Tzviya, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Michael_Cooper, ShaneM, Susann_Keohane, pkra
Present: Tzviya Rich_Schwerdtfeger Janina Michael_Cooper ShaneM Susann_Keohane pkra

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Found Date: 19 Mar 2015
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