Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

19 Dec 2014

See also: IRC log


Shadi, Reinaldo, Shawn, kevin, Lydia, PaulSchantz, Sharron, yatil-onmobile, EricE
Vicki, AnnaBelle, Andrew, Sylvie, Helle, Eric, Brent
Sharron, Paul


<trackbot> Date: 19 December 2014

<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron

Developing Organizational Policies on Web Accessibility

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html

<scribe> scribe: Paul

<shawn> scribenick: paulschantz


<kevin> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html#reference

Kevin: we introduced reference standards into Developing Organizational Policies on Web Accessibility Document
... we feel it might helpful to introduce examples about UAAG into the document as well

Lydia: I'm a little confused about what kind of examples we would use under the UAAG heading

Shawn: UAAG is a separate specification that describes accessibility guidelines for user agents

Lydia: are ATAG and UAAG links to other references? They don't go anywhere right now

Shawn: when we use headings as links, sometimes it's not apparent that they're actually links

<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron

Shadi: there are other ideas about how to address this - how to make links more clear and whether to change content or styling. It is often problematic to give elements more than one function. Let's take it off line to determine what is best. Unless the group has more input.

Shawn: Kevin can you give us an idea of what styling change you would suggest?

Kevin: Not off the type of my head?

Shawn: Could you quickly add a link to the UAAG Overview as a traditional link?

Lydia: Yes that would work for me.

Shawn: Does the content makes sense to you now with the additioanl information?

Lydia: Yes I think so

Shawn: Difference between "relevant" and "applicable" in this context - applicable may be more accurate.
... UAAG is applicable and say when (plugins, etc)

Kevin: If we have resolutions like that, can we capture it that way?

<kevin> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html#reference

<paulschantz> I like this better

Reinaldo: I like the link at the bottom better than the other two.

<paulschantz> I like the sentence better

RESOLUTION: INclude explicit link as a separate link, remove link from the heading

Kevin: And what about the question of the clarity of the UAAG examples?

Shawn: Lydia said she understood now that she had context, I am working on a resolution for re-wording it. All, is the question of when UAAG might apply clear to everyone?

All: Yes


<shawn> RESOLUTION: use wording like "WCAG is applicable for any organization with a website" for ATAG and UAAG e.g., instead of "UAAG is relevant when"

Shawn: The question is whether there should be a sparate page with examples of policy?

<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html#examples

Shadi: The template where we put all the pieces together and the example of in-depth policy, some concerns. I am not sure it actually is an in-depth policy. Rather than add to it, should we link it, add to it and include the template on a separate page?
... This would be based on the assumption that this example is really not in-depth. So the question is would it be useful to make the example a more comprehensive one.In that case, a new page would make sense.

Shawn: What does everyone think about it? Initial thoughts?

Reinaldo: Not completely sure about this, but tend to think a separate page would be best.

Lydia: I like having them on the same page. Separating them makes me expect more examples.

Paul: I like having the small examples within the sub sections and it did occur to me to link out to another page with the longer examples.

<paulschantz> the more in-depth the example, the more I'm for having it on a separate page

Sharron: +1 to Paul

Shawn: No strong feelings, but slight preference for same page maybe with expand, collapse

RESOLUTION: Review example of in-depth policy, include all of the mentioned issues and use editor's discretion for how to display it

ATAG Conformance level

Kevin: Can you introduce this?

Shawn: Generally we specify conformance level as AA so I was surprised to see that we had A as the ATAG conformance level.

Kevin: Some are staged.

Shawn: Yes but some are not

<yatil-onmobile> I agree it should be AA.

Kevin: As far as I am aware, all of the level A conformance claims are only ATAG

<kevin> RESOLUTION: Change ATAG levels to AA

Policies printed or only online

Shawn: referencing the URL breaks the flow and can be awkward. Does the group think there is a need to leave the URL for occasions when it is pronted or can we assume that it is only displayed online?

Lydia: My experince is that it is always online with a print option

<paulschantz> should be both printed and online, imo

<yatil-onmobile> Thinks both possible, usually online w/ print options.

Sharron: Is there an option for a print style sheet?

Shawn: Teaching someone else to do it, we would have to make it clear

Shadi: Andrew would speak in favor of printing. He observes a lot of printing in his government that still goes on. Would suggest a more elegant way (rather than in the midst of text) to provide links

Kevin: The question is what is our goal in providing guidance. Do we want to focus on content rather than presentation and formatting?

Shawn: I can envision a case where a policy is developed by someone without experience of style sheets. So we ought to understand that the policy may be printed in a policy manual, employee training documents, etc and provide suggestions about how to do it.

Kevin: A policy is an HTML page and so we can assume a level of understanding by those who develop it.

Shawn: It may not be online at all, policy may not be public and no reason to post.

Kevin: What is the purpose of showing these examples - are we trying to show what the content should be or how to format and present?

Shawn: The second.

Lydia: I agree

Paul: People will copy and paste and personalize. It is not our job to write policy but to help make content clear.

Shawn: If there is an example or template, people will just copy and paste.

Kevin: What I can do I can see how to modify to inlcude more URLs but I want to be cautious about filling the text with so many raw URLs.

Shawn: Yes, the short examples in the midst could be fine without URLs but the final temaplate and full example should include URLs

<kevin> RESOLUTION: Include bare URL within the complete examples and temlpate without disrupting the flow of the text.

Sharron: But not as inline with the text, as a separate list or footnote

Third parties

Kevin: Shadi had raised the question of third parties and I wondered whether there is the opportunity to reference them specifically rather than as an add-on to another topic. Create the specific topic of what considerations must be made if you ahve 3rd party content providers.

<paulschantz> +1 to Shadi's idea

Sharron: I think that is a good idea

Shadi: I don't necessarily think we need great detail, but that we need to differentiate somewhat. If your third party content does not meet WCAG you will have difficulty claiming conformance. If the 3rd party content is part of a process you can NOT meet WCAG

Reinaldo: I agree that it is improtant enough to have a separate reference.

Shawn: I am OK with the separate consideration but not make too much - no stories, no drawn out examples. Breif and to the point.

<kevin> RESOLUTION: Include a *succinct* section to discuss third-party issues

Version numbers

Shawn: In reference standards section ATAG and UAAG have no version numbers associated with them.

<shawn> [ to kevin copyedit: "Note that you may wish to reference " -> "Note that you may want to reference " ]

Kevin: In considering whether to use version numbers, we knew that since WCAG2.0 is done, we can easily reference them. But the others are in transition since they are not yet full Recommendations. The issue is in policy development, we don't want them referencing the old version which are becoming obsolete and the new one is still not referencable.

Reinaldo: My point was only to be consistent, with use version in all references or not at all.

Shawn: When UAAG and ATAG were done, would we then use the version number? If we don't reference a version, does that make policy too vague? Does the ambiguity cause problems for an organziation? We try to help people understand the issue without making a recommendation about what to do. Leave that to the internal conditions.

Shadi: In our document, ideally we would reference numbers, but can't at this point.they are done

Shawn: Maybe we shuld explain the issue more explicitly. They can't know the situation unless we tell them.

<shadi> [ we have section "version numbers" that we can add to ]

Eric: Since the issue is complex, I agree that we should have more information there. In policy creation, it is a very important point.

<kevin> Straw proposal: Explain current situation with ATAG and UAAG version numbering

Renaldo: We need more background.

Shawn: and it can be made more clear
... not using a version number provides flexibility but may introduce ambiguity...something along those lines

<yatil> [Not using a version number will enable your organization to always be on the cutting edge of accessibility.]

Shawn: next sentence: if you reference a specific version, you need to review new standards and update your policy, etc
... make pros and cons of each more clear
... If we think you SHOULD use a version number, put that first. Then say the other with pros and cons.
... Kevin asked for discussion of these issues raised in the survey. Anything else that anyone wants to add to the discussion of this document?

<kevin> RESOLUTION: Improve version number section and promote use of version number as first item. Also explain current situation with ATAG and UAAG

Shawn: OK that covers our agenda for today. We will not meet for the next two weeks. 2015 looks like the year to finish up several projects and create a more interactive way to find and use WAI informaiton. Let's do a final round of observations about accessibility education and outeach, etc.

Open Ideas

News and observations

Reinaldo: It is a pleasure to be a participant in this group. I am very happy with the results and am looking forward with excitement ot the projects for next year.

<shawn> Sharron: Had open house & Lydia came so we met in person

<shawn> Sharron: Use AccessU as a vehicle to promote our work

<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask sharron to say more about whgat AccessU is

<shawn> [ Sharron expains history of AccessU coming from AIR training ]

Shawn: We always wonder how people are using our resources, and we will have some analytics soon. We have gotten some feedback about the tutorials starting with - we love these, we use them alot. Anyone else have feedback to share on the recent materials?

<shawn> Sharron: Everyone talks about Easy Checks. we did more of a launch for Eacy than tutorialas

Sharron: EasyChecks has gotten lots of attention but we did more of a launch with those.

Shawn: Yes and as we have more tutorials, we will do more of a launch

Eric: I get feedback on tutorials mostly because I point people to them. They say they did not expect to find it on W3C and that they appreciate.

Shawn: You get that feedback where?

Eric: Twitter, GitHub, Facebook, email etc

Shawn: maybe we can gather that for potential supporters?

Shadi: And I would be interested in who is commenting on whihc tutorials and the roles they play in their organziations. It is general approach for forms and images, but when it gets to carosels it is more of a cookbook so it would be interesting to see who is giving what feedback.

Eric: I try to give feedback specific to what people are looking for
... not here are the tutorials but point people specifically to the problem they are solving.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask opportunities

Shadi: I was thinking that since each of us probably interacts withvaried audiences, if we bring that puzzle piece back to the group, we can get a full picture of how people are using these resources.

Shawn: Waht are things that people are asking about that we DON'T have guidance on? If we see people seeking upport for x maybe x shoudl be the topic of the next tutorial

Eric: A year ago, I came to Vienna to start this work and I want to thank everyone for the good feedback to support my work.

Shadi: Yes we do get things done as a group. The resources are coming along very nicely, it is good teamwork.

Shawn: And great new participation, good work in 2014 and even more in 2015.
... thanks everyone, happy holidays and look for stuff to work on during the holidays.

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found Scribe: Sharron
Found Scribe: Paul
Found ScribeNick: paulschantz
Found Scribe: Sharron
Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron
Scribes: Sharron, Paul
ScribeNicks: paulschantz, Sharron
Default Present: Shadi, Reinaldo, Shawn, kevin, Lydia, PaulSchantz, Sharron, yatil-onmobile, EricE
Present: Shadi Reinaldo Shawn kevin Lydia PaulSchantz Sharron yatil-onmobile EricE
Regrets: Vicki AnnaBelle Andrew Sylvie Helle Eric Brent
Found Date: 19 Dec 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/19-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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