13:27:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:27:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/19-eo-irc
13:27:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:27:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
13:27:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3694
13:27:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:27:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:27:26 <trackbot> Date: 19 December 2014
13:27:31 <Sharron> Chair: Shawn
13:27:37 <Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
13:28:39 <Reinaldo> Reinaldo has joined #eo
13:28:44 <yatil-onmobile> yatil-onmobile has joined #eo
13:29:17 <shadi> zakim, call shadi-617
13:29:17 <Zakim> ok, shadi; the call is being made
13:29:19 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:29:20 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:29:35 <Zakim> +Reinaldo
13:30:32 <Zakim> +Shawn
13:31:25 <Zakim> +??P2
13:31:37 <kevin> zakim, ??P2 is me
13:31:37 <Zakim> +kevin; got it
13:32:25 <paulschantz> paulschantz has joined #eo
13:32:49 <Zakim> +Lydia
13:33:42 <Zakim> +PaulSchantz
13:35:56 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:35:56 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:37:41 <shawn> Topic: Developing Organizational Policies on Web Accessibility
13:38:02 <shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html
13:38:37 <paulschantz> scribe: Paul
13:38:54 <shawn> scribenick: paulschantz
13:39:18 <paulschantz> Topic:  UAAG
13:39:23 <Sharron> I can't get through on the phone - ?
13:39:29 <Sharron> will try Skype
13:39:44 <kevin> s/I can't get through on the phone - ?//
13:39:53 <kevin> s/will try Skype//
13:40:07 <kevin> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html#reference
13:40:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:40:46 <Sharron> zakim, IPcaller is Sharron
13:40:46 <Zakim> +Sharron; got it
13:40:55 <paulschantz> Kevin:  we introduced reference standards into Developing Organizational Policies on Web Accessibility Document
13:41:42 <paulschantz> Kevin:  we feel it might helpful to introduce examples about UAAG into the document as well
13:44:23 <yatil-onmobile> yatil-onmobile has joined #eo
13:44:32 <Sharron> Regrets: Vicki, AnnaBelle, Andrew, Sylvie, Helle, Eric, Brent
13:45:14 <paulschantz> Lydia:  I'm a little confused about what kind of examples we would use under the UAAG heading
13:46:06 <Zakim> -Sharron
13:46:16 <paulschantz> Shawn:  UAAG is a separate specification that describes accessibility guidelines for user agents
13:46:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:47:04 <Sharron> zakim, IPcaller is Sharron
13:47:04 <Zakim> +Sharron; got it
13:47:19 <paulschantz> Lydia:  are ATAG and UAAG links to other references?  They don't go anywhere right now
13:47:46 <paulschantz> Shawn:  when we use headings as links, sometimes it's not apparent that they're actually links
13:48:21 <Zakim> + +1.619.550.aaaa
13:48:32 <shadi> q+
13:48:41 <shawn> ack s
13:48:44 <shadi> ack me
13:49:05 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:49:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Reinaldo, Shawn, kevin, Lydia, PaulSchantz, Sharron, +1.619.550.aaaa
13:49:32 <kevin> zakim, 619 is yatil-onmobile
13:49:32 <Zakim> sorry, kevin, I do not recognize a party named '619'
13:49:39 <Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
13:49:46 <kevin> zakim, +1.619.550.aaaa is yatil-onmobile
13:49:46 <Zakim> +yatil-onmobile; got it
13:50:24 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:50:24 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:50:32 <shadi> ack me
13:52:01 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:52:01 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:52:03 <Sharron> Shadi: there are other ideas about how to address this - how to make links more clear and whether to change content or styling. It is often problematic to give elements more than one function.  Let's take it off line to determine what is best. Unless the group has more input.
13:52:33 <Sharron> Shawn: Kevin can you give us an idea of what styling change you would suggest?
13:52:42 <Sharron> Kevin: Not off the type of my head?
13:53:11 <Sharron> Shawn: Could you quickly add a link to the UAAG Overview as a traditional link?
13:53:19 <Sharron> Lydia: Yes that would work for me.
13:53:36 <Sharron> Shawn: Does the content makes sense to you now with the additioanl information?
13:53:45 <Sharron> Lydia: Yes I think so
13:54:21 <Sharron> Shawn: Difference between "relevant" and "applicable" in this context - applicable may be more accurate.
13:54:43 <Sharron> ...UAAG is applicable and say when (plugins, etc)
13:55:07 <Sharron> Kevin: If we have resolutions like that, can we capture it that way?
13:55:34 <kevin> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html#reference
13:55:49 <paulschantz> I like this better
13:56:40 <Sharron> Reinaldo: I like the link at the bottom better than the other two.
13:56:57 <paulschantz> I like the sentence better
13:57:28 <Sharron> RESOLUTION: Include the linked sentence at the bottom
13:58:35 <Sharron> s/RESOLUTION: Include the linked sentence at the bottom/
13:59:11 <Sharron> RESOLUTION: INclude explicit link as a separate link, remove link from the heading
13:59:29 <Sharron> Kevin: And what about the question of the clarity of the UAAG examples?
14:00:19 <Sharron> Shawn: Lydia said she understood now that she had context, I am working on a resolution for re-wording it.  All, is the question of when UAAG might apply clear to everyone?
14:00:30 <Sharron> All: Yes
14:00:35 <Sharron> Topic: Examples:
14:00:41 <shadi> ack me
14:00:51 <shawn> RESOLTUION: use wording like "WCAG is applicable for any organization with a website" for ATAG and UAAG e.g., instead of "UAAG is relevant when"
14:01:23 <Sharron> s/ RESOLTUION:/RESOLUTION:
14:01:47 <Sharron> Shawn: The question is whether there should be a sparate page with examples of policy?
14:02:14 <shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html#examples
14:03:07 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:03:07 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:03:21 <Sharron> Shadi: The template where we put all the pieces together and the example of in-depth policy, some concerns. I am not sure it actually is an in-depth policy. Rather than add to it, should we link it, add to it and include the template on a separate page?
14:03:22 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi (muted), Reinaldo, Shawn, kevin, Lydia, PaulSchantz, Sharron, yatil-onmobile
14:03:24 <shadi> ack me
14:04:27 <Sharron> Shadi: This would be based on the assumption that this example is really not in-depth. So the question is would it be useful to make the example a more comprehensive one.In that case, a new page would make sesne.
14:04:35 <Sharron> s/sesne/sense
14:04:41 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:04:41 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:05:06 <yatil-onmobile> yatil-onmobile has joined #eo
14:05:15 <Sharron> Shawn: What does everyone think about it? Initial thoughts?
14:05:41 <Sharron> Reinaldo: Not completely sure about this, but tend to think a separate page would be best.
14:06:10 <Sharron> Lydia: I like having them on the same page. Separating them makes me expect more examples.
14:07:16 <Sharron> Paul: I like having the samll examples within the sub sections and it did occur to me to link out to another page with the longer examples.
14:07:22 <paulschantz> the more in-depth the example, the more I'm for having it on a separate page
14:07:22 <Sharron> Sharron: +1 to Paul
14:07:30 <kevin> s/samll/small/
14:07:56 <Sharron> Shawn: No strong feelings, but slight preference for same page maybe with expand, collapse
14:08:19 <shadi> ack me
14:08:29 <Sharron> RESOLUTION: Review example of in-depth policy, include all of the mentioned issues and use editor's discretion for how to display it
14:08:56 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:08:56 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:09:10 <Sharron> Topic: ATAGConformance level
14:09:40 <Sharron> Kevin: Can you introduce this?
14:09:41 <kevin> s/ATAGConformance level/ATAG Conformance level/
14:10:21 <Sharron> Shawn: Generally we specify conformance level as AA so I was surprised to see that we had A as the ATAG conformance level.
14:10:31 <Sharron> Kevin: Some are staged.
14:10:43 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes but some are not
14:11:54 <yatil-onmobile> I agree it should be AA.
14:12:01 <Sharron> Kevin: As far as I am aware, all of the level A conformance claims are only ATAG
14:12:29 <kevin> RESOLUTION: Change ATAG levels to AA
14:12:30 <Sharron> Topic: Policies printed or only online
14:14:05 <Sharron> Shawn: referencing the URL breaks the flow and can be awkward. Does the group think there is a need to leave the URL for occasions when it is pronted or can we assume that it is only displayed online?
14:14:19 <Sharron> Lydia: My experince is that it is always online with a print option
14:14:21 <shadi> q+
14:14:22 <kevin> q+
14:14:25 <paulschantz> should be both printed and online, imo
14:14:38 <yatil-onmobile> Thinks both possible, usually online w/ print options.
14:14:54 <Sharron> Sharron: Is there an option for a print style sheet?
14:15:22 <shawn> ack shadi
14:15:22 <Sharron> Shawn: Teaching someone else to do it, we would have to make it clear
14:15:25 <shadi> ack me
14:16:06 <shawn> ack k
14:16:08 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:16:08 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:16:09 <kevin> ack me
14:16:28 <Sharron> Shadi: Andrew would speak in favor of printing. He observes a lot of printing in his government that still goes on. Would suggest a more elegant way (rather than in the midst of text) to provide links
14:17:11 <Sharron> Kevin: The question is what is our goal in providing guidance. Do we want to focus on content rather than presentation and formatting?
14:18:57 <Sharron> Shawn: I can envision a case where a policy is developed by someone without experience of style sheets.  So we ought to understand that the policy may be printed in a policy manual, employee training documents, etc and provide suggestions about how to do it.
14:19:22 <Sharron> Kevin: A policy is an HTML page and so we can assume a level of understanding by those who develop it.
14:19:41 <Sharron> Shawn: It may not be online at all, policy may not be public and no reason to post.
14:21:04 <Sharron> Kevin: What is teh purpose of showing these examples - are we trying to show what the content should be or how to format and presnt?
14:21:10 <Sharron> Shawn: The second.
14:21:16 <Sharron> Lydia: I agree
14:21:28 <kevin> s/presnt/present
14:21:51 <Sharron> Paul: People will copy and paste and personalize. It is not our job to write policy but to help make content clear.
14:21:52 <kevin> s/teh/the/
14:22:15 <Sharron> Shawn: If there is an example or template, people will just copy and paste.
14:23:04 <Sharron> Kevin: What I can do I can see how to modify to inlcude more URLs but I want to be cautious about filling the text with so many raw URLs.
14:24:51 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes, the short examples in the midst could be fine without URLs but the final temaplate and full example should include URLs
14:25:01 <kevin> RESOLUTION: Include bare URL within the complete examples and temlpate without disrupting the flow of the text.
14:25:08 <Sharron> Sharron: But not as inline with the text, as a separate list or footnote
14:25:31 <Sharron> Topic: Third parties
14:25:33 <yatil> yatil has joined #eo
14:25:50 <kevin> ack me
14:27:00 <Sharron> Kevin: Shadi had raised the question of third parties and I wondered whether there is the opportunity to reference them specifically rather than as an add-on to another topic. Create the specific topic of what considerations must be made if you ahve 3rd party content providers.
14:27:06 <yatil-onmobile> yatil-onmobile has joined #eo
14:27:08 <shadi> ack me
14:27:21 <Zakim> -yatil-onmobile
14:27:26 <paulschantz> +1 to Shadi's idea
14:27:28 <Sharron> Sharron: I think that is a good idea
14:28:42 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:28:42 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:28:47 <Sharron> Shadi: I don't necessarily think we need great detail, but that we need to differentiate somewhat. If your third party content does not meet WCAG you will have difficulty claiming conformance. If the 3rd party content is part of a process you can NOT meet WCAG
14:29:24 <Sharron> Reinaldo: I agree that it is improtant enough to have a separate reference.
14:30:04 <Sharron> Shawn: I am OK with the separate consideration but not make too much - no stories, no drawn out examples. Breif and to the point.
14:30:05 <kevin> RESOLUTION: Include a *succinct* section to discuss third-party issues
14:30:12 <Sharron> Topic: Version numbers
14:31:01 <Sharron> Shawn: In reference standards section ATAG and UAAG have no version numbers associated with them.
14:31:58 <shawn> [ to kevin copyedit: "Note that you may wish to reference " -> "Note that you may want to reference " ]
14:32:54 <yatil> zakim, call EricE-Skype
14:32:54 <Zakim> ok, yatil; the call is being made
14:32:56 <Zakim> +EricE
14:33:10 <yatil> zakim, nick yatil is EricE
14:33:10 <Zakim> ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
14:33:20 <yatil> zakim, mute me
14:33:20 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
14:33:40 <Sharron> Kevin: In considering whether to use version numbers, we knew that since WCAG2.0 is done, we can easisly reference them. But the others are in transition since they are not yet full Recommendations. The issue is in policy development, we don't want them referencing the old version which are becoming obsolete and the new one is still not referencable.
14:34:03 <kevin> s/easisly/easily/
14:34:11 <Sharron> Reinaldo: My point was only to be consistent, with use version in all references or not at all.
14:34:55 <yatil> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:34:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/19-eo-minutes.html yatil
14:36:40 <shadi> ack me
14:36:54 <Sharron> Shawn: When UAAG and ATAG were done, would we then use the version number? If we don't reference a version, does that make policy too vague? Does the ambiguity cause problems for an organziation? We try to help people understand the issue without making a recommendation about what to do. Leave that to the internal conditions.
14:37:35 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:37:35 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:37:51 <yatil> q+
14:37:52 <Sharron> Shadi: In our document, ideally we would reference numbers, but can't at this point.they are done
14:38:05 <shadi> ack me
14:38:14 <shawn> ack e
14:38:15 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:38:15 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:38:20 <Sharron> Shawn: Maybe we shuld explain the issue more explicitly. They can't know the situation unless we tell them.
14:38:46 <shadi> [ we have section "version numbers" that we can add to ]
14:38:50 <Sharron> Eric: Since the issue is complex, I agree that we should have more information there.  In policy creation, it is a very important point.
14:38:59 <yatil> zakim, mute me
14:38:59 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
14:39:50 <kevin> Straw proposal: Explain current situation with ATAG and UAAG version numbering
14:40:38 <Sharron> Renaldo: We need more background.
14:40:46 <Sharron> Shawn: and it can be made more clear
14:41:33 <Sharron> ...not using a version number provides flexibility but may introduce ambiguity...something along those lines
14:41:54 <yatil> [Not using a version number will enable your organization to always be on the cutting edge of accessibility.]
14:42:05 <Sharron> ...next sentence: if you reference a specific version, you need to review new standards and update your policy, etc
14:42:35 <Sharron> ...make pors and cons of each more clear
14:42:40 <yatil-onmobile> yatil-onmobile has joined #eo
14:42:43 <Sharron> s/pors/pros
14:43:27 <Sharron> Shawn: If we think you SHOULD use a version number, put that first. Then say the other with pros and cons.
14:44:23 <Sharron> Shawn: Kevin asked for discussion of these issues raised in the survey. Anything else that anyone wants to add to the discussion of this document?
14:44:43 <kevin> RESOLUTION: Improve version number section and promote use of version number as first item. Also explain current situation with ATAG and UAAG
14:46:36 <Sharron> Shawn: OK that covers our agenda for today. We will not meet for the next two weeks. 2015 looks like the year to finish up several projects and create a more interactive way to find and use WAI informaiton. Let's do a final round of observations about accessibility education and outeach, etc.
14:46:45 <shawn> Topic: Open Ideas
14:46:46 <Sharron> Topic: News and observations
14:47:26 <Sharron> Reinaldo: It is a pleasure to be a participant in this group. I am very happy with the results and am looking forward with excitement ot the projects for next year.
14:48:03 <shawn> Sharron: Had open house & Lydia came so we met in person
14:48:13 <shawn> q+
14:48:25 <yatil> q+
14:48:40 <shawn> q+ use of our materials?
14:48:53 <shawn> Sharron: Use AccessU as a vbehicle to promote our work
14:49:28 <shadi> q+
14:49:41 <yatil> s/vbeh/veh/
14:49:46 <shadi> q+ to ask sharron to say more about whgat AccessU is
14:50:04 <shawn> ack shadi
14:50:05 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask sharron to say more about whgat AccessU is
14:50:32 <yatil> q- later
14:52:10 <shawn> [ Sharron expains history of AccessU coming from AIR training ]
14:57:54 <shawn> ack me
14:59:20 <Sharron> Shawn: We always wonder how people are using our resources, and we will have some analytics soon. We have gotten some feedback about the tutorials starting with - we love these, we use them alot. Anyone else have feedback to share on the recent materials?
14:59:46 <shawn> Sharron: Everyone talks about Easy Checks. we did more of a launch for Eacy than tutorialas
14:59:53 <Sharron> Sharron: EasyChecks has gotten lots of attention but we did more of a launch with those.
15:00:04 <yatil> ack me
15:00:14 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes and as we have more tutorials, we will do more of a launch
15:00:59 <Sharron> Eric: I get feedback on tutorials mostly because I point people to them. They say they did not expect to find it on W3C and that they appreciate.
15:01:01 <shadi> q+
15:01:08 <Sharron> Shawn: You get that feedback where?
15:01:23 <shawn> ack sha
15:01:23 <Sharron> Eric: Twitter, GitHub, Facebook, email etc
15:01:26 <shadi> ack me
15:01:44 <Sharron> Shawn: maybe we can gather that for potetnial supporters?
15:02:51 <shawn> zakim, who is muted?
15:02:51 <Zakim> I see no one muted
15:02:53 <kevin> s/potetnial/potential/
15:02:59 <Sharron> Shadi: And I would be interested in who is commenting on whihc tutorials and the roles they play in their organziations. It is general approach for forms and images, but when it gets to carosels it is more of a cookbook so it would be interesting to see who is giving what feedback.
15:03:19 <Sharron> Eric: I try to give feedback specific to what people are looking for
15:03:29 <shawn> q+ to ask opportunities
15:03:43 <Sharron> ...not here are the tutorials but point people specifically to the problem they are solving.
15:03:53 <yatil> zakim, mute me
15:03:53 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
15:04:13 <shawn> ack me
15:04:13 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask opportunities
15:04:43 <Sharron> Shadi: I was thinking that since each of us probably interacts withvaried audiences, if we bring that puzzle piece back to the group, we can get a full picture of how people are using these resources.
15:05:10 <yatil> q+
15:05:14 <shawn> ack ee
15:05:19 <shawn> ack e
15:05:19 <Sharron> Shawn: Waht are things that people are asking about that we DON'T have guidance on? If we see people seeking upport for x amybe x shoudl be the topic of the next tutorial
15:05:34 <kevin> s/amybe/maybe/
15:06:01 <yatil> zakim, mute me
15:06:01 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
15:06:12 <Sharron> Eric: A year ago, I came to Vienna to start this work and I want to thank everyone for the good feedback to support my work.
15:07:04 <Sharron> Shadi: Yes we do get things done as a group. The resources are coming along very nicely, it is good teamwork.
15:07:21 <Sharron> Shawn: And great new participation, good work in 2014 and even more in 2015.
15:07:42 <Sharron> ...thanks everyone, happy holidays and look for stuff to work on during the holidays.
15:07:44 <Zakim> -PaulSchantz
15:07:49 <Zakim> -Lydia
15:07:51 <Zakim> -EricE
15:08:09 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:08:17 <Zakim> -Shawn
15:08:18 <Zakim> -Sharron
15:08:18 <Zakim> -kevin
15:08:20 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:08:20 <Zakim> Attendees were Shadi, Reinaldo, Shawn, kevin, Lydia, PaulSchantz, Sharron, yatil-onmobile, EricE
15:08:24 <Sharron> trackbot, end meeting
15:08:24 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:08:24 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:08:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:08:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/19-eo-minutes.html trackbot
15:08:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:08:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items