Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

18 Nov 2014


See also: IRC log


+1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, EricE, +1.703.637.aabb, jon_avila, Kenny, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MoeKraft, James_Nurthen, +1.703.825.aacc, Sailesh
Christophe_strobbe, Kathy_Wahlbin, Mike_Elledge, Alistair_Garrison, Bailey_Bruce, Bruce_Bailey, Christophe_Strobbe


<trackbot> Date: 18 November 2014

<Kenny> botie, inform AWK "agenda on Nov.18 have loaded by kenny"

<botie> will do

<botie> AWK, at 2014-11-18 15:41 UTC, Kenny said: "agenda on Nov.18 have loaded by kenny"

<AWK> Chair: AWK

<AWK> botie, help?

Many of the conversations are moving from lists to twitter.

I most read by hash tag like #a11y

I can scribe

<scribe> scribe: jon_avila

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

Streamlining WG workflow proposal

awk: Settlement announced between USDOJ and Peapod -- requires to them to get up to WCAG Level AA
... talked about improve groups process at TPAC. How to improve tasks that we spent a lot of time on.
... We go through different levels of debate discussing public comments and new techniques.

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Process

awk: we have a process document that we'd like people to take a look at. This is a draft. Reflects what we talked about.
... Process for dealng with comments is hard. Even with tools that chairs have it can be challenging. We talked about change the way we are doing things.
... Talked about Bugzilla and also discussed github.
... This document will define what the process is rather than what we are changing.
... The process for comments would be received as email or github. Currently we use tracker which has a few different capabilities - action and issues and stories comments.
... For spelling changes is missing commas or missing links changes will be made. We need to balance what we will just do and what will be raised with the group -- i.e. what is editorial and what is not.
... happy to discuss issues that people don't feel is editorial. For non-editorial people in the group propose resolutions.
... We would track comments through issue on github so it's like a threaded discussion.
... drive toward consensus or determine we need a conference call to discuss.
... survey could be created for discussion if needed. One complete issue with closed and not will be sent to working group.
... other vehicles include: mailing lists, email, conference, working group meeting, using IRC asynchronous, etc.

<David> +1 on one week... everybody is crazy busy

awk: Any thoughts? Good, bad, etc.?

lgr: worth a try -- reflects some of the conversation from the face to face

Ryladog: likes week timeframe

<AWK> Marc: likes the sound of the proposal

lgr: make it possible for participation from a wider range of time zones

<AWK> David: fine with proposal

<Joshue> JA: Fine with me

<AWK> Jon_Avila: fine with me

<yatil> +1

eric: Working in github is very nice. One can concentrate on comments in one place. Helpful to reference discussion from comments. Concise view.

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask what we do with telecons

mc: Need to find way to archive comments. Document doesn't say what we will do with our standing weekly call whether we will shorten it or change it from every week to every other two weeks.

awk: Shortened schedule might make sense if we are just reviewing public comments. Other time we may have other activities.

mc: We don't need to change the reservation on the conference bridge -- but we could shorten the call to a hour and later re-evaluate down the road.
... Can then evaluate whether we need to go to a different schedule.

<Ryladog> +1 to David

david: thinks we will need 1.5 hours per week

jo: Hope changes will provide flexibility for people in their situations. Could do bi-weekly calls to test asynchronous situation.

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I think the point of this process is to reduce (though not elimninate) dependence on telecons and to say keeping things moving

jo: could have extra calls as needed. But would like to try other channels to see how it goes.

mc: Teleconferences do function as a due date and groups that have them every other week can work have a fast. We do need to solve the problem of weekly due dates

awk: Two functioning proposals - hour every week or hour and a half every other week.

mc: Like to try hour every week and then evaluate. Less of a shock to the system.

awk: If we are month into trying it and then we have a big piece of work then we might have to change.
... meetings expand to fill their container. I'm sure we can fill up two hours. It may mean that we need to more aggressively moderate debates and shift discuss to asynch

<David> +1 weekly

awk: A meeting that happens every week is on my calendar and I know when it will happen.

<Joshue> +1 to 11 for me definitely

awk: Is everyone acceptable to try the hour long meeting each week. What time 11 or 11:30 ET?

<yatil> +1 weekly, also +1 for start at 11 ET

<jamesn> -1 for 11ET

<Kenny> +1 for 11ET

jo: Happy enough with Michael's idea. There are also task force people who server also on WCAG WG.

<jamesn> it is very unfriendly to west coast with kids

jo: hear from James that 8 PT doesn't work for him.

james: west coast participation could be affected by time
... concern that asynchronous comments might get glossed over in meeting

jo: all comments from different channels will be taken seriously
... challenge is to bring asynch comment to conclusion

mc: Someone makes call that consensus has been reached -- that perhaps if often a chair -- and then creates proposal and pushes it through

awk: Desire to have improved level of engagement from people. James comment about asynch comment is important.
... Trying to measure engagement

mc: Can make arrangements to discuss during certain time in meeting - e.g. at the end of the meeting to accommodate people who can't be on the call during the given time.

james: Sometimes a person may comment on survey that something isn't ready but then in WG call people amend and then determine it ready and vote on it.

mc: other groups have consensus call after teleconference consensus. Some never allow consensus of people only present at that time.

<AWK> ACTION: AWK to add concept of CfC post an agreement in a meeting to the new process proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-298 - Add concept of cfc post an agreement in a meeting to the new process proposal [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-11-25].

jo: We need a validate loop for consensus. Good point, thanks for your input James.

awk: Concern over entering infinite loop. We'll need to gauge this -- it's only fair to make sure everyone has their say.
... If person makes comments it will be tracked in github. If you have an idea you can also use working group list. If people think it's an issue then it can be added to github.
... It's possible that we might call for consensus for something that was only discussed on list. We will refine process as time goes on.

david: has about 15 issues in tracker about some things such as maps that we don't discuss. Number of things that we need to discuss and make a strategy.
... Flurry for a few days but then a week later it will be buried and there is no tracking to bring it back up. Where would we do that without the issue tracker?

jo: At this stage we won't retired our tracker system at the moment.

mc: There is a tool named tracker represented by IRC as trackbot. Then there is the tracker for storing public comments. And then there is github issues which has something similar to tracker.
... Understand that the comments tracker would be retired and everything would be handled in github.
... Tool named tracker have had different opinions of what to do about that. it has some nice features such as IRC integrate. So we will likely have a balance between two tools for a while.
... May want to close issue in tracker over time and add new ones to github.

awk: There are some topics we don't know what to do with. e.g. your example about maps. We need to decide as a group to determine whether we need techniques around x or y or not
... It may be only a person is interested and that person would then put forward a proposal for that. Then it could be raised in a different way.
... not all discussions on list will be conclude don list or taken up on a call.

david: perhaps list is indicator of whether topic is something WG would take up or not if there is interested.

mc: If group doesn't take up discuss there may not be interested -- but worth tracking idea even if we are going to discuss it right now.
... We have to assume that people will actively follow the list.

awk: Logical time frame for github would coincide with next release of comments. That would January. That would give us a month of transition time. This would help us clarify the edges around the process.
... One consequence of this -- you will need a free github account to receive notification on issues. WG members would need this to be connected the conversation.
... You can also view it at the end -- but we want engagement throughout so we don't have people jump in right at the end because people weren't following the discussion on github.
... investigate would we want or could we subscribe the WG list to github

<Joshue> right, everything would have to tracked

mc: subscribing list might cause fragmentation and confusion -- people should get free gibhut account

awk: we will keep you posted on next steps
... possible other discussions for GL list to discuss later

Mobile TF update

awk: Mobile TF is coming up with guidance around mobile and navigate collective understand of WG. We've had some techniques accepted and rejects. Some confusion in TF.
... Right now mobile TF is shifted gears to focus on overarching document on mobile. Name is not yet decided.
... Three legs, mobile accessibility note -- it will relate to techniques that apply to mobile. Technique may be derived from note.
... we will end up with gap analysis of what is needed in WCAG to support mobile where techniques are required not just advisory.
... Mobile TF is focusing on note first.
... any questions?

david: Would it be here are the things to think about in mobile.

awk: Endeavor to clarify that mobile is covered by WCAG and to counter the impression that it is not.
... discuss somethings people will need to think about and what are special considerations and what is important to think about. Less codey. Couldn't say if it's free of code.

david: Would the chairs be the editors?

awk: yes

<Kenny> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.3.1_due_to_marking_up_prices_a_where_the_decimal_is_not_shown_but_the_visual_presentation_indicates_the_need_for_a_decimal

awk: put this out to see if people agree with it.


<David> +1

awk: This is a specific technique -- not generalized.

<David> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Processhttps://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Processm

awk: You can use CSS for prices without punctuation like you see in grocery store
... Example file is provided with proposed technique
... could make edits and send it back through for a final form review.

james: are there are other things that are similar that would push into the technique?

lgr: Do all countries use same notation? Some use comma, etc.

jo: another example could use comma

awk: Do the countries still call it a decimal?

what about punctuation?

james: Decimal mark should take of internationalization of it.

<yatil> +1 for decimal mark

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say this is more an example than a technique

mc: Thinks it's too specific to be a technique -

lgr: this is a failure not a sufficient technique

david: think it's ok to specific common failures

<MoeKraft> Decimal separator,

<MoeKraft> http://www.iso.org/schema/isosts/v1.0/doc/n-cdf0.html

mc: some people think techniques are normative and we don't want to put too specific cases in as techniques when there are others that could go in makes this unbalanced.
... want to emphasize examples more.

awk: will have to look for relevant techniques

<Joshue> ack +1.

sailesh: agree with Mike in one way. e.g. we talked about registered sign for alt. But this is very common on the web.

awk: tried to think of general case. But wrote this up because it got more obscured by a collection of things.
... hard to come up with tight failure that is well generalizable

david: what about using CSS to inidcate changes relationships instead of native HTML

<AWK> This one is the opposite: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F43.html

what about F2?

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G117.html

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F2.html

awk: will take a crack at adding an example to f2

<AWK> ACTION: AWK to revise pricing technique into example for F2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-299 - Revise pricing technique into example for f2 [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-11-25].

awk: was supposed to send survey analysis out to look for trends -- but did not send it out.

ryladog: will you send link to the document?

awk: yes

<jamesn> regrets then

awk: right now there is a meeting next week.

<jamesn> thanksgiving week etc....

<AWK> Trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: AWK to add concept of CfC post an agreement in a meeting to the new process proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: AWK to revise pricing technique into example for F2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.140 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-11-18 17:27:45 $

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Default Present: +1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, EricE, +1.703.637.aabb, jon_avila, Kenny, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, Loretta, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MoeKraft, James_Nurthen, +1.703.825.aacc, Sailesh
Present: +1.617.766.aaaa AWK Michael_Cooper David_MacDonald EricE +1.703.637.aabb jon_avila Kenny Joshue Marc_Johlic Loretta Katie_Haritos-Shea MoeKraft James_Nurthen +1.703.825.aacc Sailesh
Regrets: Christophe_strobbe Kathy_Wahlbin Mike_Elledge Alistair_Garrison Bailey_Bruce Bruce_Bailey Christophe_Strobbe
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014OctDec/0106.html
Found Date: 18 Nov 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: awk

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