IRC log of shapes on 2014-10-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:14:03 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #shapes
- 15:14:03 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-shapes-irc
- 15:14:08 [ericP]
- Zakim, this will be shapes
- 15:14:08 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ericP
- 15:14:17 [ericP]
- Zakim, show conferences
- 15:14:17 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'show conferences', ericP
- 15:16:13 [ericP]
- Zakim, space for 10 for 540 minutes?
- 15:16:15 [Zakim]
- ok, ericP; conference Team_(shapes)15:16Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 540 minutes until 0016Z
- 15:17:37 [BartvanLeeuwen]
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- 15:28:26 [Arnaud]
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- 15:30:29 [hknublau]
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- 15:30:43 [Arnaud]
- Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF Data Shapes WG: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Thursday
- 15:30:53 [Arnaud]
- Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF Data Shapes WG: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page - Today's meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Thursday
- 15:31:04 [Arnaud]
- hello there
- 15:31:13 [Arnaud]
- we're still waiting for people to show up
- 15:31:31 [Arnaud]
- trackbot, start meeting
- 15:31:33 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs 252
- 15:31:35 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be
- 15:31:35 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
- 15:31:36 [trackbot]
- Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
- 15:31:36 [trackbot]
- Date: 30 October 2014
- 15:31:49 [Arnaud]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 15:32:14 [Arnaud]
- RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
- 15:33:03 [Arnaud]
- zakim, this is shapes
- 15:33:03 [Zakim]
- Arnaud, I see Team_(shapes)15:16Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be shapes".
- 15:33:11 [Arnaud]
- zakim, who's here?
- 15:33:11 [Zakim]
- Team_(shapes)15:16Z has not yet started, Arnaud
- 15:33:12 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see hknublau, Arnaud, BartvanLeeuwen, RRSAgent, Zakim, Anamitra, jimkont, betehess, ericP, trackbot
- 15:34:13 [Arnaud]
- zakim, call suite1435
- 15:34:13 [Zakim]
- ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
- 15:34:14 [Zakim]
- Team_(shapes)15:16Z has now started
- 15:34:15 [Zakim]
- +Suite1435
- 15:34:31 [AxelPolleres]
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- 15:34:42 [Anamitra]
- do you have the call-in number?
- 15:35:01 [Arnaud]
- zakim, this is 26633
- 15:35:01 [Zakim]
- Arnaud, this was already Team_(shapes)15:16Z
- 15:35:02 [Zakim]
- ok, Arnaud; that matches Team_(shapes)15:16Z
- 15:35:03 [simonstey]
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- 15:35:14 [Arnaud]
- anamitra, that's the code: 26633
- 15:35:42 [pfps]
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- 15:35:50 [Anamitra]
- I am sorry is there a 800/888 # ?
- 15:36:12 [Zakim]
- -Suite1435
- 15:36:14 [Zakim]
- Team_(shapes)15:16Z has ended
- 15:36:14 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Suite1435
- 15:36:22 [rhiaro_]
- rhiaro_ has joined #shapes
- 15:36:30 [Zakim]
- Team_(shapes)15:16Z has now started
- 15:36:35 [pfps]
- no 800 number for Zakim, however there are numbers in various countries
- 15:36:37 [Zakim]
- +EricP
- 15:36:43 [Arnaud]
- Zakim teleconference bridge (+1.617.761.6200) with a code of 26633#.
- 15:37:12 [Nick]
- Nick has joined #shapes
- 15:37:21 [Anamitra]
- thanks
- 15:37:28 [Zakim]
- +??P7
- 15:37:31 [Arnaud]
- zakim, who's on?
- 15:37:31 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, Arnaud.
- 15:37:41 [Arnaud]
- zakim, who's on the phone/
- 15:37:41 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's on the phone/', Arnaud
- 15:37:50 [Arnaud]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:37:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see EricP, ??P7
- 15:38:00 [simonstey]
- i'll be a few minutes late
- 15:38:04 [Zakim]
- + +1.978.899.aaaa
- 15:38:05 [Arnaud]
- zakim, call suite1435
- 15:38:06 [Zakim]
- ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
- 15:38:06 [Zakim]
- +Suite1435
- 15:38:23 [AxelPolleres]
- Zakim, ??P7 is probably me
- 15:38:23 [Zakim]
- +AxelPolleres?; got it
- 15:38:42 [pfps]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:38:42 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see EricP, AxelPolleres?, +1.978.899.aaaa, Suite1435 (muted)
- 15:38:54 [Anamitra]
- 978.899.aaaa - Anamitra
- 15:39:23 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:40:05 [Zakim]
- -EricP
- 15:40:15 [Zakim]
- -AxelPolleres?
- 15:40:48 [fgandon]
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- 15:41:44 [AxelPolleres_]
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- 15:43:39 [Anamitra]
- I am on phone
- 15:45:37 [ericP]
- topic: introductions
- 15:45:43 [AxelPolleres]
- scribe: AxelPolleres
- 15:45:53 [AxelPolleres]
- self introductions...
- 15:46:13 [ericP]
- ericP: ericP, W3C staff contact
- 15:46:18 [ericP]
- scribenick: ericP
- 15:46:33 [ericP]
- AxelPolleres: Axel Polleres, university of @@1
- 15:46:35 [pfps]
- pfps has joined #shapes
- 15:46:40 [AxelPolleres]
- EricP (W3C), Axel (WU), David Martin (Nuance), Arnaud (IBM, chair), PPFS (Nuance),
- 15:46:56 [AxelPolleres]
- … Nick Crossley (IBM)
- 15:47:13 [ericP]
- scribenick: AxelPolleres
- 15:47:36 [AxelPolleres]
- … Fabien Gandon (INRIA)
- 15:48:19 [AxelPolleres]
- … Amy Guy (Univ. Edinburgh)
- 15:48:36 [AxelPolleres]
- more on the phone…
- 15:49:07 [AxelPolleres]
- Anamitra (IBM),
- 15:49:22 [AxelPolleres]
- … Holger Knublauch (TopQuadrant)
- 15:50:13 [AxelPolleres]
- Arnaud: no one else on the phone
- 15:50:13 [Arnaud]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:50:13 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see +1.978.899.aaaa, Suite1435, [IPcaller]
- 15:50:35 [Anamitra]
- +1.978.899.aaaa = @Anamitra
- 15:50:43 [Arnaud]
- zakim, aaaa is Anamitra
- 15:50:44 [AxelPolleres]
- … Ralph Hodgson (TopQuadrant) also arrived in the room.
- 15:50:44 [Zakim]
- +Anamitra; got it
- 15:51:29 [AxelPolleres]
- Arnaud: need good planning with the meeting, discussed before with EricP
- 15:51:46 [AxelPolleres]
- … working on use cases and requirements is the most important
- 15:52:44 [AxelPolleres]
- … other WGs are chartered with a fairly well-defined direction, in our case, see the discussion on the mailinglist: we watered down the open ended charter in order to make it acceptable.
- 15:53:17 [AxelPolleres]
- s/watered down the open ended charter/made the charter more neutral/
- 15:54:16 [AxelPolleres]
- … people in the room with different assumptions, but we should come in with a fresh mind, need to agree whatthe problem is, have one solution in the end.
- 15:55:02 [AxelPolleres]
- … fix terminology to understand each other, that’s the goal of this meeting, plus learn about each other.
- 15:55:40 [simonstey]
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- 15:56:25 [AxelPolleres]
- … my reading of the mailinglist shows that people have certain use cases in mind, but it’s not yet agreed in the group.
- 15:56:46 [AxelPolleres]
- … eric will give us an overview of the current “space”.
- 15:58:03 [AxelPolleres]
- … agenda for today, get an overview, sort out what are the low-hanging fruit, what can we tackle.
- 15:58:52 [AxelPolleres]
- … for eric’s talk, please let’s refrain for debate for the moment, but let’s focus on just clarifications.
- 16:00:53 [AxelPolleres]
- Ralph: can offer facilities for screensharing
- 16:01:10 [rhiaro__]
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- 16:01:12 [AxelPolleres]
- Arnaud: we make sure to let people on the phone what slides we’re on.
- 16:01:45 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: we can use talky.io, check it in the break
- 16:02:04 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP starting the presentation
- 16:02:14 [AxelPolleres]
- Arnaud: please use the queue
- 16:02:19 [simonstey]
- is there a way to connect to the telefonbridge via sip?
- 16:03:00 [AxelPolleres]
- Karen Coyle (DC) also joining the meeting.
- 16:03:33 [Arnaud]
- sip:zakim@voip.w3.org
- 16:04:09 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 16:04:10 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: explaining the motivation, we want to describe the interface, i.e. graphs that are “allowed” that’s effectively validation.
- 16:04:36 [simonstey]
- zakim, +??P12 is me
- 16:04:36 [Zakim]
- sorry, simonstey, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12'
- 16:04:48 [AxelPolleres]
- Zakim, ??P12 is simonstey
- 16:04:48 [Zakim]
- +simonstey; got it
- 16:05:26 [AxelPolleres]
- ericp: slide 2
- 16:05:26 [simonstey]
- http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/1030-shapes-egp
- 16:06:16 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: errors would be e.g. date constraints, typos, etc. motivation is to catch such errors
- 16:07:10 [AxelPolleres]
- … Orri Erling mentioned to me that he was looking for something like this for optimization purposes.
- 16:07:45 [AxelPolleres]
- … competing with the SQL constraints world, XML Schema languages, in some sense
- 16:08:04 [kcoyle]
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- 16:08:31 [AxelPolleres]
- … in conventional data ontologies are separate from constraints.
- 16:09:10 [AxelPolleres]
- … other languages, eg. OSLC keeps constraints separate.
- 16:09:48 [AxelPolleres]
- … party invitees or patients might have different constaints on foaf:Person data.
- 16:10:40 [AxelPolleres]
- … objects of some properties could be sometimes strings or objects (e.g. dc:creator).
- 16:11:11 [AxelPolleres]
- … we want the ability to descibe/accept that inour constraint language.
- 16:11:32 [AxelPolleres]
- … another example is enumerated sets for values.
- 16:12:31 [AxelPolleres]
- … substrings, regexps for literal values,
- 16:12:53 [AxelPolleres]
- … certain sets of values with an exception list of disallowed values.
- 16:13:19 [AxelPolleres]
- … schema.org does not use intersection of domains (as e.g. rdfs:domain/range do).
- 16:13:32 [AxelPolleres]
- … probably union
- 16:13:48 [AxelPolleres]
- pfps: it’s undefined in schema.org
- 16:14:25 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: objectproperties aren’t strict, can be literals in schema.org … so schema.org is different from the RDFS.. world
- 16:14:48 [AxelPolleres]
- …existing technilogies include SPARQL, SPIN, etc.
- 16:15:42 [AxelPolleres]
- Ralph: firstly, we need a reporting schema, secondly, we need relaxation rules
- 16:16:43 [AxelPolleres]
- EricP: I can write enforcement of min/max cardinalities in SPARQL ASK queries.
- 16:17:07 [AxelPolleres]
- … either explicitly or compile it from something more high-level.
- 16:17:28 [AxelPolleres]
- … there’s various differnent ways to write SPARQL queries that are equivalent.
- 16:18:05 [AxelPolleres]
- … instead of ASK queries, you could also qrite queries that give you an error.
- 16:19:42 [AxelPolleres]
- … slide 7, the system by Simister, Brickley is simpler, e.g. doesn’t allow cardinality constraints, is still idiomatic, used by google-folks, but not endorsed.
- 16:20:11 [AxelPolleres]
- … slide 8, SPIN… essentiually SPARQL in RDF
- 16:21:51 [AxelPolleres]
- … slide 9 has a turtle graph with constraints in SPIN
- 16:22:36 [AxelPolleres]
- … can “parameterize” the queries and add rules, SPARQL CONSTRUCT, still a declarative model.
- 16:23:10 [AxelPolleres]
- … underspecific rdf:type arcs are problematic.
- 16:23:33 [AxelPolleres]
- Ralph: you can do subsumption in the rule attached to the constraint.
- 16:23:48 [hknublau]
- (or use named graphs to keep contexts separate)
- 16:24:08 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: slide 10, OWL, growing community understanding OWL, small commmunity what OWL in open world means.
- 16:24:24 [AxelPolleres]
- … e.g. OWL can’t ever tail you whether a minCard constraint failed.
- 16:25:06 [AxelPolleres]
- … slide 11: OWL reinterpreted as closed world.
- 16:25:09 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:25:36 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres: Is that the same that PelletIC does?
- 16:26:02 [AxelPolleres]
- pfps: now startdog, stardogIC is the implementation of this.
- 16:26:45 [AxelPolleres]
- … foundation is any OWL axiom can be read as constraint/translated into SPARQL.
- 16:26:57 [Arnaud]
- ack AxelPolleres
- 16:26:58 [AxelPolleres]
- ack me
- 16:27:35 [AxelPolleres]
- DavidMartin: any path for standardization for this?
- 16:28:06 [AxelPolleres]
- pfps: RPI no W3C memberat the moment, the IP would be theirs.
- 16:28:44 [AxelPolleres]
- Arnaud: evren sirin presented this in our workshop, but didn’t push on broad adoption/standardization of it.
- 16:29:05 [AxelPolleres]
- … but later it came up again during charteing process.
- 16:29:29 [pfps]
- my comments on other's IP cannot be taken to be authoritative
- 16:29:47 [AxelPolleres]
- Ralph: if you stay in the RDF/SPARQL world things get ttreated differently.
- 16:30:56 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres: Would it be interpreting OWL as SPARQL queries under OWL entailment as per SPARQL1.1 spec?
- 16:31:07 [AxelPolleres]
- pfps: rather RDFS entailment regime
- 16:31:34 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres: that’s not something probably we can just take off-the-shelf.
- 16:31:52 [AxelPolleres]
- pfps: does the IC implementation cover corner-cases?
- 16:32:05 [AxelPolleres]
- … think stadog does RDFS completely, not sure.
- 16:32:18 [AxelPolleres]
- s/stadog/stardog/
- 16:32:39 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: kendall proposes to use manchester syntax.
- 16:32:41 [pfps]
- s/stadog/Stardog/ - not StarDog
- 16:33:16 [AxelPolleres]
- … on the plus side this is what many people understand when reading OWL axioms.
- 16:33:36 [AxelPolleres]
- … on the other side no things such as date comparison or complex builtin functions, etc.
- 16:34:23 [AxelPolleres]
- Holger: about slide 12… SPIN ressoucre shapes is just SPIN templates
- 16:34:42 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: slide 12 is SPIN as templates
- 16:36:08 [AxelPolleres]
- … for something complex like date constraints, we need extensions of that.
- 16:37:05 [AxelPolleres]
- … slide 13 Shape expressions
- 16:37:55 [AxelPolleres]
- … mix of languages.
- 16:38:59 [AxelPolleres]
- … Z notation.
- 16:39:49 [AxelPolleres]
- … I added things like ‘or’, semantic actions, not too much takeup yet.
- 16:40:08 [AxelPolleres]
- … has a defined extensibility mechanism.
- 16:41:16 [AxelPolleres]
- slide 14 several of the introduced approaches for one consistent example… should all capture the same intuition.
- 16:42:49 [AxelPolleres]
- ericP: issues slide 15 e.g. interaction with reasoning.
- 16:44:04 [AxelPolleres]
- … exmple of IinverseFunctionalProperty in that slide.
- 16:44:29 [AxelPolleres]
- … shows there are cases where you want inferencing before validation.
- 16:46:35 [AxelPolleres]
- … XML schema is much clearer about type annotation.
- 16:46:52 [AxelPolleres]
- … a lot of the magic in Xquery comes fro mthe avility to statically check types.
- 16:47:19 [AxelPolleres]
- s/fro mthe av/from the ab/
- 16:48:24 [AxelPolleres]
- … question whether we want to support anything that adds stuff (rules? owl inference?) on validation.
- 16:49:55 [AxelPolleres]
- … SPARQL regular expressions are much more limited than Perl/PHP reg exps.
- 16:50:32 [AxelPolleres]
- … talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_Particle_Attribution
- 16:51:25 [AxelPolleres]
- … more achallenge for XML Schema than for regexps.
- 16:52:04 [SumitPurohit_]
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- 16:52:33 [AxelPolleres]
- … context-free = per property/object, context-sensitive = per property/objects in a certain context
- 16:52:53 [AxelPolleres]
- … questions!
- 16:54:11 [AxelPolleres]
- Arnaud: advice from the XML Schema community: be creful what you allow, it might blow up.
- 16:54:23 [sandro]
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- 16:54:26 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:54:36 [simonstey]
- s/creful/careful
- 16:54:44 [sandro]
- q+ tim
- 16:55:17 [AxelPolleres]
- Michel Dumontier: just entered the room (short self intro)
- 16:55:36 [AxelPolleres]
- … we would like to use Shapes
- 16:55:52 [AxelPolleres]
- timbl: just entered the room
- 16:55:55 [AxelPolleres]
- q+ ralph
- 16:56:22 [Arnaud]
- ack tim
- 16:56:40 [AxelPolleres]
- timbl: do be minimalist, but then don’t take a long time
- 16:56:47 [Arnaud]
- ack AxelPolleres
- 16:58:38 [Arnaud]
- ack ralph
- 16:59:16 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres: my questions…
- 16:59:28 [AxelPolleres]
- … 1. often needs rules/views to make it easy to write constraints more concisely
- 16:59:28 [AxelPolleres]
- … 2. vs. ASSERTION/CHECK … we have no distinction between tuple-“borders”.\
- 16:59:30 [AxelPolleres]
- … 3. something in the JSON space we need to look at? is there schema-languages for JSON(-LD)?
- 16:59:31 [AxelPolleres]
- … 4. when should those constaint be checked (UPDATE)
- 16:59:31 [AxelPolleres]
- … 5. what about updateing constraints? what does it mean?
- 16:59:56 [AxelPolleres]
- Ralph: the beauty of RDF/SW is that we can query data along with the model.
- 17:01:11 [fgandon]
- Ralph: should shape be queryable? e.g. SPIN allows reflecting on the constraints and querying them
- 17:01:38 [Zakim]
- -Anamitra
- 17:01:41 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
- 17:01:58 [AxelPolleres]
- Sandro Hawke also joined the room/meeting
- 17:20:41 [sandro]
- hknublau, try going to https://talky.io/shapes
- 17:26:57 [AxelPolleres]
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- 17:28:14 [AxelPolleres]
- thought this might be interesting/related somehow… http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/AAAI/AAAI14/paper/viewFile/8487/8531
- 17:31:15 [pfps]
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- 17:32:08 [kcoyle]
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- 17:32:15 [kcoyle]
- scribe:kcoyle
- 17:32:37 [simonstey]
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- 17:33:44 [kcoyle]
- After break: 10:30
- 17:33:55 [Zakim]
- -simonstey
- 17:34:10 [kcoyle]
- Dean allemang introduces himself
- 17:34:25 [Nick]
- Nick has joined #shapes
- 17:34:35 [Zakim]
- +??P1
- 17:34:55 [simonstey]
- Zakim, +??P1 is probably me
- 17:34:55 [Zakim]
- sorry, simonstey, I do not understand your question
- 17:35:02 [simonstey]
- Zakim, +??P1 is simonstey
- 17:35:02 [Zakim]
- sorry, simonstey, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
- 17:35:09 [kcoyle]
- On screen Hierarchical view of DC requirements for RDF Validation: EricP's version
- 17:35:54 [kcoyle]
- DC has begun use cases and requirements
- 17:36:34 [kcoyle]
- looks overwhelming; but Eric has grouped the requirements
- 17:36:41 [Zakim]
- +Anamitra
- 17:37:18 [simonstey]
- Zakim, ??P1 is simonstey
- 17:37:18 [Zakim]
- +simonstey; got it
- 17:37:24 [kcoyle]
- Go through Eric's "small group" to see if we can come up with a core
- 17:38:29 [ericP]
- kcoyle: Dublin Core decided to work on RDF validation.
- 17:38:45 [ericP]
- ... relates to past (pre-RDF) work on "applications profiles".
- 17:38:50 [deiu]
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- 17:38:53 [ericP]
- ... it was never heavily used.
- 17:39:17 [ericP]
- ... the DC RDF Validation WG started a couple months ago.
- 17:39:31 [ericP]
- ... Thomas Bosch had already created a database. We adopted it.
- 17:39:58 [fabien-gandon]
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- 17:39:59 [ericP]
- ... We created a subset called the "Dublinc Core" reqs from Europeana and a couple other things.
- 17:40:27 [ericP]
- ... You can view the DC reqs in the database [look on the far right next to requirements]
- 17:40:44 [ericP]
- ... We are winnowing the list down, e.g. "cardinality"
- 17:41:02 [ericP]
- ... DB is in Drupal. is continuously updated.
- 17:41:16 [Nick]
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- 17:41:32 [ericP]
- dean: [re XML baggage]
- 17:41:40 [michel]
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- 17:41:51 [ericP]
- ... folks are using XSD over OWL/XML
- 17:42:13 [ericP]
- ... has a good pedigree, fits in stacks. there's a baby in that bathwater.
- 17:42:50 [ericP]
- kcoyle: the "baggage" i referred to is not that it's XML; it's that it's based the dublin core abstract model.
- 17:43:26 [kcoyle]
- ericP: showing the database (his)
- 17:43:29 [sandro]
- kcoyle: THey use "non-literal value surrogate" instead of "object"
- 17:43:50 [kcoyle]
- added in the requirements form the validation workshop last year
- 17:44:02 [ralphtq]
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- 17:44:23 [ericP]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+GDCAP-small#reqs "small" reqs
- 17:44:23 [Arnaud]
- http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+Gsmall
- 17:44:44 [AxelPolleres]
- +q to mention work about RDF normal forms (whenever it fits)
- 17:45:03 [kcoyle]
- ericP: suggests we got through small first, to see if we can get agreement
- 17:46:01 [DavidM]
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- 17:46:39 [hknublau]
- +q
- 17:46:55 [kcoyle]
- pfps: concern that we are looking at requirements before doing use cases
- 17:46:58 [ralphtq]
- +q
- 17:46:59 [Arnaud]
- ack AxelPolleres
- 17:46:59 [Zakim]
- AxelPolleres, you wanted to mention work about RDF normal forms (whenever it fits)
- 17:47:33 [DeanAllemang]
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- 17:47:55 [kcoyle]
- AxelPolleres: put a link in irc to a paper comparing relational model and rdf; this could be a use case
- 17:48:13 [kcoyle]
- ... e.g. foreign key constraints, etc.
- 17:48:39 [kcoyle]
- ... we should think about it
- 17:49:30 [kcoyle]
- ericP: there is another hierarchy in the DC database
- 17:50:45 [ericP]
- -> http://lelystad.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/rdf-validation/?q=case-studies case studies
- 17:50:50 [AxelPolleres]
- q?
- 17:51:49 [AxelPolleres]
- would extending R2RML to SQL constraints be a use case for us?
- 17:52:08 [Arnaud]
- ack hknublau
- 17:52:13 [ericP]
- -> http://lelystad.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/rdf-validation/?q=CS-4-EUROPEANA-DATA-MODEL-EDM Europeana Use Case
- 17:52:16 [AxelPolleres]
- (I guess that summarizes my question best)
- 17:53:25 [DeanAllemang]
- We can't hear Holger at all when he really has amnything interesting to say :)
- 17:55:22 [kcoyle]
- Holger: believes requirements started as DC requirements; additional ones were added. Shouldn't call them DC. Examples called SPIN should be called SPARQL requirements.
- 17:55:27 [DeanAllemang]
- No, he always talks that way :)
- 17:56:15 [kcoyle]
- ... thinks we can agree on minimum profile (small set) -- one way to define a minimum language is to list rquirements; another way
- 17:56:26 [kcoyle]
- ... is to define it as SPIN
- 17:56:56 [kcoyle]
- ... no extensibility in what is here, and this is the most important requirement
- 17:57:09 [kcoyle]
- ... minimum profile should not be the only outcome of this working group
- 17:57:18 [sandro]
- q?
- 17:57:29 [kcoyle]
- Arnaud: this is just a starting point; this is not where we will stop
- 17:58:10 [Arnaud]
- ack ralphtq
- 17:58:15 [kcoyle]
- ericP: agrees they should be called sparql; SPIN templates are same as Shapes
- 17:58:50 [kcoyle]
- ralphtq: Process point: upstreeam from use cases are customer needs; "solution envisioning" begins way before use cases/case studies
- 17:59:28 [kcoyle]
- ... expression of need/pain. wants to divvy things up into needs
- 17:59:59 [kcoyle]
- ... use cases too far down stream
- 18:00:39 [kcoyle]
- Arnaud: this is an important point; open to this; we can backtrack
- 18:01:26 [kcoyle]
- ... we did this on a shared pad at the validation workshop; then we re-organized it all.
- 18:01:37 [ericP]
- hknublau, i just s/SPIN/SPARQL/'d. reload.
- 18:01:42 [michel]
- q+
- 18:01:50 [Arnaud]
- ack michel
- 18:02:20 [hknublau]
- @ericP thanks!
- 18:02:44 [kcoyle]
- michel: needs framework for what information is required from his group to articulate their requirements
- 18:02:54 [Arnaud]
- ack DeanAllemang
- 18:03:39 [kcoyle]
- DeanAllemang: for those who haven't been in discussion, a story-telling session would be helpful; stories could be discussed in terms of relevance
- 18:04:07 [ericP]
- q+ "we should dive deep for a moment"
- 18:04:13 [ericP]
- q+ to say "we should dive deep for a moment"
- 18:04:33 [kcoyle]
- Arnaud: use q system
- 18:04:41 [kcoyle]
- ericP: go through a few to help us tell our stories
- 18:04:46 [Arnaud]
- ack ericP
- 18:04:46 [Zakim]
- ericP, you wanted to say "we should dive deep for a moment"
- 18:05:15 [kcoyle]
- ericP: small group of requirements:
- 18:05:43 [kcoyle]
- ... high level requirements
- 18:05:48 [ericP]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+Gsmall#reqs "small" reqs
- 18:06:00 [kcoyle]
- ericP: to help us tell stories
- 18:06:12 [kcoyle]
- ... high level from workshop and DC
- 18:06:20 [kcoyle]
- ... language should be higher level than sparql
- 18:06:42 [kcoyle]
- ... under that: basic use cases covered by a constraint language implicit extension
- 18:06:50 [kcoyle]
- ... high level vocab for common cases
- 18:06:58 [kcoyle]
- ... constrains for different uses don't conflict
- 18:07:22 [kcoyle]
- ... syntax: concise language
- 18:07:28 [kcoyle]
- ... extensibility
- 18:08:25 [kcoyle]
- Arnaud: extensibility was outcome of workshop; so,ething easy that does the 80-20, but can be extended for corner cases
- 18:08:56 [kcoyle]
- ericP: bar for extensivility not high
- 18:09:06 [kcoyle]
- ... addressable schemas & addressable constraints
- 18:09:19 [kcoyle]
- ... be able to re-use constraints and have stable constraint identifiers
- 18:10:25 [kcoyle]
- ... ui generation - this is above what you get from RS or OWL; will require ordering of constraints
- 18:10:29 [pfps]
- q+
- 18:10:38 [Anamitra]
- We do that same (generating UI and validation code in js) in IBM (C&SI) - using Rsource Shapes
- 18:10:44 [Arnaud]
- ack pfps
- 18:11:25 [kcoyle]
- pfps: this seems to be a different kind of thing - language should be higher than sparql, then we have a use case for how it fits
- 18:12:03 [kcoyle]
- ericP: foundation: schemas aren't in ontologies = schemas are separable from ontologies
- 18:12:38 [kcoyle]
- ... don't put constraints in vocabularies - leads to problem
- 18:13:03 [kcoyle]
- pfps: could conclude that the only thing you have in an ontology is a listing of terms
- 18:13:32 [kcoyle]
- ericP: owl ontology is talking about something different in terms of constraints
- 18:14:19 [kcoyle]
- ralphtq: uses graphs; schema needs an adjective before it as does graph; need to pin down the word ontology
- 18:14:30 [Arnaud]
- ack DeanAllemang
- 18:15:04 [kcoyle]
- DeanAllemang: confirms that stories and use cases fall into two categories: data comes out good/bad. the other is expectation control
- 18:16:11 [Anamitra]
- q+
- 18:16:30 [Arnaud]
- ack Anamitra
- 18:17:22 [Nick]
- Nick has joined #shapes
- 18:18:29 [Anamitra]
- in RDF we have resources refer to a network of resources - ideally I would like the constraint language for these resources refer to each other
- 18:18:35 [kcoyle]
- ericP: at separation of constraints and onto semantics
- 18:18:57 [kcoyle]
- ... RDF target constructs - probably want to talk about triples and graphs
- 18:19:09 [kcoyle]
- ... a lot based on language tags
- 18:20:02 [kcoyle]
- DeanAllemang: that sounds like SKOS functionality; SKOS may have been translated to SPIN (ask Ralph later)
- 18:20:12 [DeanAllemang]
- SKOS constraints have been expressed in SPIN. I don't know what percentage of the constraints were expressible.
- 18:20:21 [hknublau]
- Yes, we have implemented all SKOS constraints with SPIN.
- 18:20:38 [DeanAllemang]
- I thought so - I wasn't sure if you made it to 100%
- 18:20:46 [kcoyle]
- ericP: Expressivity: or pattern, and pattern; original db had more detail
- 18:21:22 [kcoyle]
- ... lexical patterns - catch date/time errors; something must be of a certain datatype (Peter; value for predicate has to belong to...)
- 18:22:22 [kcoyle]
- AxelPolleres: also need a negative
- 18:22:49 [DeanAllemang]
- Value Sets are important in finance reference data as well.
- 18:23:06 [kcoyle]
- ericP: value sets: value must be assigned or unassigned
- 18:23:25 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres: you can us FILTER( … IN … ) for enumerations
- 18:23:44 [kcoyle]
- ... cardinality: option, one or more, zero or more, but what about between 2 and 5? or bigger than one?
- 18:25:03 [kcoyle]
- ... have to decide if any minimum or maximum, or if there are a limited number of choices
- 18:25:29 [AxelPolleres]
- +q going back to SQL constraint and their coverage.
- 18:25:44 [AxelPolleres]
- It looks to me that the requirement to capture contraints coming from relational data are not entirelty captured here (i) CHECK (comparison/boolean expression on values attached to a resource), (ii) NOT NULL, UNIQUE (as special cases of (inverse) cardinalities?) (iii) REFERENCES/FOREIGN KEY (the question is with what to parameterize this… with a SPARQL query again?) … should IMO be covered, How about multi-attribute FOREIGN KEYs?
- 18:25:59 [kcoyle]
- ... protocol/invocation - does a class fire off validation? closed shapes - things can have only the listed properties, or if it can be an open shape
- 18:26:05 [Arnaud]
- q?
- 18:26:40 [kcoyle]
- ... associated constraints with particular datasets and associating with rest apis
- 18:26:59 [DeanAllemang]
- There are also privacy / entitlement issues about "closed shapes" - we don't allow spurious triples in to our data set, in case this is part of some elaborate attack.
- 18:27:04 [hknublau]
- @Axel I agree we should cover primary keys
- 18:27:15 [kcoyle]
- ... implementability: how hard is it to implement the language? = has to be reducible to sparql, but cannot do recursion
- 18:27:17 [Anamitra]
- correction: Resource Shapes is schema for RDF data - not WSDL
- 18:27:32 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 18:27:36 [ralphtq]
- +q
- 18:27:52 [kcoyle]
- ... huge call for validation with sparql
- 18:28:41 [michel]
- +q
- 18:28:45 [SumitPurohit]
- SumitPurohit has joined #shapes
- 18:28:50 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 18:28:51 [hknublau_]
- hknublau_ has joined #shapes
- 18:28:54 [Arnaud]
- ack ralphtq
- 18:29:19 [kcoyle]
- ralphtq: does recursion using spin; but not sparql
- 18:29:21 [Arnaud]
- ack DeanAllemang
- 18:30:42 [kcoyle]
- DeanAllemang: Another kind of requirement: "OWL is a dirty world" why? How many new technologies do you make users learn? "relationship capital"
- 18:31:38 [kcoyle]
- ... = social capital" - costs a lot to bring in anything new; "adoption barrier"
- 18:31:58 [kcoyle]
- ... requirement: can get it adopted - "adoptability"
- 18:32:33 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 18:33:03 [SumitPurohit]
- Hi All, I am Sumit Purohit. Trying to connect remotely...IS "742737#" valid code ?
- 18:33:15 [kcoyle]
- Arnaud: "try to keep it simple"
- 18:33:19 [Arnaud]
- ack michel
- 18:33:40 [simonstey]
- 26633#
- 18:33:46 [simonstey]
- @sumit
- 18:33:56 [Zakim]
- + +1.509.372.aabb
- 18:33:58 [kcoyle]
- michel: language should be concise, but not so concise as to be arcane; and should be familiar to existing practioners; comprehensible
- 18:33:59 [SumitPurohit]
- got it...Thanks
- 18:33:59 [Arnaud]
- ack AxelPolleres
- 18:34:19 [SumitPurohit]
- Thanks @simonstey
- 18:35:01 [kcoyle]
- AxelPolleres: add to cover relational database data requirements? surface language may need relational requirements
- 18:35:20 [kcoyle]
- ... unqiueness isn't there
- 18:36:19 [kcoyle]
- ... references, foreign keys... can these be covered? for RDBMS to RDF (and reverse) should make these simple to do
- 18:36:35 [ralphtq]
- +q
- 18:36:44 [Arnaud]
- ack ralphtq
- 18:37:22 [kcoyle]
- ralphtq: what is a good story? protagonist, revelation of pain point, a challenge or barrier, and a happy ending :)
- 18:37:30 [Arnaud]
- ack DeanAllemang
- 18:38:09 [kcoyle]
- DeanAllemang: protagonists: modelling team; pain point: because it's a new tech, people say "the model is broken" -- what does that mean?
- 18:39:46 [kcoyle]
- ... sometimes it does mean that the model is broken; need to run the model through tests
- 18:40:29 [kcoyle]
- ... resolution: need a standard way to test and validate
- 18:42:10 [kcoyle]
- pfps: you're saying that the documents you want to validate are representations of the models themselves
- 18:43:26 [kcoyle]
- [people start speaking sparql and rdfs -- oh let's move on]
- 18:43:59 [michel]
- q+
- 18:45:07 [kcoyle]
- pfps: you want to generate a language model; coming into that are many entities; with their types and names
- 18:45:36 [kcoyle]
- ... just saying that an entity has a name not enough: every THING has to be provided a name that is a string
- 18:46:01 [kcoyle]
- ... we don't want to say that there is only one name
- 18:46:14 [Arnaud]
- ack michel
- 18:46:19 [kcoyle]
- michel: we have three main use cases:
- 18:46:46 [kcoyle]
- ... w3c health care group; community profile for data sets
- 18:47:38 [kcoyle]
- ... group each said what data elements they had; these were collected and vocabularies were studies, so people would use the same elements
- 18:48:44 [kcoyle]
- ... argument for interoperability; has usual ones, but have to look at what is in the data itself; discoverability; wanted more documentation; and for the data
- 18:48:47 [ralphtq]
- +q
- 18:48:50 [kcoyle]
- ... to work when aggregated
- 18:49:01 [Arnaud]
- ack ralphtq
- 18:49:17 [michel]
- http://tinyurl.com/hcls-dataset-description
- 18:49:29 [kcoyle]
- ralphtq: owl import - brings in everything or nothing; you are asking to partially import something
- 18:51:26 [kcoyle]
- michel: showing diagram from ttp://tinyurl.com/hcls-dataset-description
- 18:51:32 [kcoyle]
- http://tinyurl.com/hcls-dataset-description
- 18:52:15 [kcoyle]
- michel: need versioning which was not in void; and also didn't have all rdf data sets
- 18:53:37 [kcoyle]
- ... serves as an element guide
- 18:55:08 [kcoyle]
- ... check if identifiers are valid or not; check patterns (regex); url access pattern
- 18:56:50 [kcoyle]
- ralphtq: can be done as mergeable graphs or layers of graphs
- 18:58:00 [kcoyle]
- ericP: different validation levels
- 18:58:04 [kcoyle]
- q+
- 19:00:08 [kcoyle]
- michel: can implement at different levels depending on what data you have and what you can provide
- 19:01:16 [Arnaud]
- ack kcoyle
- 19:02:55 [Nick]
- +q
- 19:03:58 [Arnaud]
- ack Nick
- 19:05:12 [Zakim]
- -Anamitra
- 19:05:16 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 19:05:30 [Zakim]
- -simonstey
- 19:05:55 [SumitPurohit]
- what time do we resume ? 1 PM ?
- 19:06:59 [Zakim]
- - +1.509.372.aabb