Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 19 Sep 2014


  1. alt text in table tutorials
  2. WCAG support materials survey
  3. EOWG f2f - CSUN
  4. Developing Organizational Policies on Web Accessibility - discuss comments from review
  5. Forms tutorial - discuss comments from review
  6. (moved to next week) WCAG-EM Report Tool] - follow-up from previous discussion


Shawn, Shadi, AnnaBelle, Andrew, Wayne, Jon, Eric, Kevin
Denis, Vicki, Sylvie, Helle, Sharron
Kevin, Andrew


alt text in table tutorials

Background: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-minutes#item03

<shawn> wayne's idea http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2014JulSep/0072.html

Wayne: Not had an opportunity to pick up with Jon this week

Jon: These aren't quite what I was thinking of

Shawn: Jon and Wayne will you have a chance to look at this today?

Wayne, Jon: Yes, we will pick up this up by phone today and feedback

Shawn: Would be good to fix as soon as possible as original commenter is awaiting response
... Some people are still of the view that these are decorative images and should have no ALT.
... Hope is that we can come up with a succinct enough ALT that would meet all needs.

WCAG support materials survey

Shawn: Found out this week that WCAG WG is interested in improving the usability of Understanding, Techniques and How to Meet quick reference.
... They want to do a survey looking for user feedback.
... They were updated about the upcoming How to Meet improvements from EO.

<yatil> Background: http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/

Shawn: ... Would be good to do some informal user testing at TPAC.

<shawn> draft: https://adobeformscentral.com/?f=kzSSzvx-o7ASHXEbMduEIQ# -- but Shawn suggested different text for first page *and* you don't see alll the text unless anser yes

AnnaBelle: Is this going to come from Adobe? Shouldn't it come from W3C?
... It disturbs me a bit that we are using an Adobe platform

Shawn: There were concerns that the W3C tool wouldn't provide conditional questions
... The Adobe tool does have some accessibility challenges that are of concern

Andrew: Do they have a purpose for this survey?

Shawn: Not as such, which is part of the aim of the survey

<shawn> front page suggestion:

<shawn> This survey gathers information and ideas to help improve the usability of WCAG 2.0 support material. It is part of a broader project that includes usability testing. The survey focuses on three documents:

<shawn> 1. Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/)

<shawn> 2. Understanding WCAG 2.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/)

<shawn> 3. How to Meet WCAG 2.0 (http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/)

<shawn> The survey does not cover WCAG 2.0 itself (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/) because it is a stable, referenceable standard that does not change.

<shawn> The survey briefly asks at the end about some of the other supporting material: WCAG Overview, WCAG 2 at a Glance, The WCAG 2.0 Documents, Accessibility Principles, and Web Accessibility Tutorials.

<shawn> [@@ use of data +]

<shawn> Thank you for your assistance!

Kevin: Are they actively seeking feedback on the survey?

Shawn: WCAG WG reviewed the survey. Brought it to WAI coordination group Wednesday.
... EO is considerably busy at the moment so it would be up to the individual
... there may have been a desire to not include EO to avoid slowing the process down
... Ideally if time allows there is the chance to raise big things but avoid lots of minor issues

Kevin: It is likely that the usability community would consider a survey not to be the most ideal way to gather useful usability feedback

<yatil> [I Agree]


Shawn: Quick poll as to who may or may not attend CSUN?

Jon: I am definitely going to TPAC, not sure about CSUN

<Andrew> tentative (not expecting organizational funding)

AnnaBelle: Would like to attend a f2f, but not sure at the moment about CSUN

Jon: TPAC is great as what is happening is well advertised
... CSUN is harder to get approval as there is little advertised in advance about what is happening

Developing Organizational Policies on Web Accessibility

<Andrew> scribe: Andrew

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/pol.html

Kevin: was an older document, really just bringing up to date and making more consistent
... hasn't been through same level of review as some other, but ready for lots of review now
... trying to make the Intro similar to other docs
... a bit more of a step-by-step guide than Planning (less section, more instructions)
... wanting to pull out and highlight the examples
... simple one and more comprehensive one for each section
... so - what is missing, or not clear

slh: who has had a chance to look at it?

AB: just seen today - like having the egs differentiated

Andrew: just seen today too - looking good overall, but still need to read closely

Jon: find the shadows under EGs distracting (like Andrew) - haven't had a chance to read fully

SLH: please take a look this week

all: agree to look more closely

SLH: fairly polished draft, so please look at anything at any level
... including wordsmithing

Wayne: two things - idea of developing local policy and need to differentiate between that (org policy) and the gudeline (TR)
... be good to draw out more how to include reference to WCAG in their policy and how they will implement, monitor, etc
... and solicit comment/input to ensure buy-in for the organisational policy

slh: maybe the is doc should point to Implementing for that aspect (e.g. getting buy-in)
... also wonder if we're assuming people know too much - maybe we should start with 'what is a policy' and purpose
... with a simple example maybe
... to give more context

AB: where do I put feedback?

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Work_for_this_week

SLH: different places accepted - https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Work_for_this_week

Shadi: debating whether a policy is internal or external or both or publicized in different place

Wayne: in a university context, you would make it clear that this is a structural policy and wouldn't impinge on academic freedom
... completely external to WCAG, but needs to address procedural and cultural impacts

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say some orgs have longer internal policy, and shorter extrnal policy

Shadi: so is this for deeloping an internal policy (might be partly communicated externally) -or is it for developing a public policy? or both?

SLH: many have a detailed internal policy and a shorter external statement
... need to differentiate
... need to be clear with our intent

kevin: geared towards an interanl policy

<shawn> ack

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about Your policy is likely to reference particular standards or guidelines by version number,

Andrew: many have a detailed internal policywith responsibilities, time frames, priorities etc and then have a simple external statement of intent (to minimise liability and being held to much to account)

SLH: thanks for taking a look and providing more comment soon

Kevin: shadow change - thoughts?


All: much better :)

Forms tutorial

<shawn> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/forms/

<kevin> Scribe: Kevin

Eric: Front page and general organization feedback would be good
... Is the content good on the front page
... what do you think of the titles?

[2 min reading break]

Shawn: If there are any wordsmithing these can be added separately
... Bigger things would be useful now

AnnaBelle: Appears that CSS hyphenate is being used and I am seeing loads of these. Is this something new?

Eric: No this is something that I wanted to explore but it looks like it doesn't work as well as I might like.
... It will be removed

Andrew: Chrome doesn't do this at all

Eric: No, not supported by Chrome

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to mention support

Andrew: Comment overall, this particular tutorial seems to introduce a lot more ARIA/HTML5.
... Make me wonder if we should be looking to get a lot more of the support information into the accessibility support database

Shadi: Yes, this was the idea but the Accessibility Support Database doesn't have as much data as we would like yet
... Although it is the intention that it will

Andrew: Concern that someone will use techniques in the tutorial that might not have the appropriate support

Shadi: We are aiming to add a note about possibilities of lack of support.
... Might also put it into a 'miscellaneous' tutorial
... Generally though until the Accessibility Support Database is more complete people will need to check themselves as to what will work

Eric: I have tried to make it clear where some techniques are less well supported. If there are any examples where this is not clear it would be good to have feedback

Wayne: Developers in general are abandoning the FORM element as it comes with so much baggage

Shawn: Do we need to address that?

Wayne: A person trying to use this to teach may run into people who will simply say I won't use a FORM element
... "show me how to do it without that"

Shadi: We don't mention the FORM element much in the tutorial

<shawn> [ /me wonders if the tutorial mostly applies in the case Wayne states ?]

Shadi: There is some discussion about custom controls but with advice to use standard controls as much as possible

Eric: Doesn't align with my experience on forms
... I have seen the FORM element used more widely
... Bootstrap for example uses FORM element

Shawn: For the situation that Wayne metioned, how much of the tutorial would still be relevant?

Eric: Probably about 95%... not a lot about the FORM element specifically

<shawn> Kevin: question about the title for various sections. make those shorter?

<shawn> ... labeling controls -> lableing... Form instructions -> Instructions (etc.)

<shawn> ... disability groups - what about older users

<shawn> Shadi: need to shorten?

<shawn> Kevin: maybe over tersifying I think "Validation" is common. "Lableing" says what it needs to say. adding "controls is clutter

Andrew: No strong feeling about having two words over one

Shawn: Anyone else have any strong feelings?

All: No other comments

<Andrew> re older people - some info at http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-age-literature/#designforms (and http://www.w3.org/WAI/older-users/developing.html)

Eric: Wasn't deliberate to not include older people. Does it make sense to include them as a specific group?

Shawn: So far, we tend not to have a separate group for older people.
... Tend to mention them in relation to other groups

Andrew: There are some aspects in the literature review that might be worth reviewing re: older audiences

Shawn: There is plenty for the group to do, should we close the meeting now to allow more time to review?

EO Review - wonderful editor work!

AnnaBelle: I just want to say that I really love what we are creating here!

Wayne: Sometimes I am just overwhelmed with the quality... I just don't know where to start with criticism!

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments

Shawn: As a group it is great to appreciate the good work.
... It is good to have note that you have reviewed in the wiki or github.

AnnaBelle: With regard to the EM Report Tool, the issue I had was that the tool seemed to be for more experienced people
... it is not because I didn't feel the interface wasn't good that I didn't have more coments

<Zakim> metzessive, you wanted to respond/extrapolate upon AnnaBelle's perspective

Shawn: In this case it is fine to say in the feedback channels

Jon: Just to expand on your comments AnnaBelle
... Part of my role is to train people to be better at accessibility
... Feedback on how these benefit people as they are learning is extremely helpful

Shawn: Any other questions?
... Have forms tutorial and reporting tool. If you review them and have nothing to add, please do note that

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2014/10/01 15:32:58 $