Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

05 Sep 2014

See also: IRC log


Shawn, AnnaBelle, +, Sylvie, EricE, Jon, Bim, kevin, PaulSchantz, +1.562.256.aabb, Shadi, wayne, +1.512.797.aacc, Sharron, Wilco, metzessive


<trackbot> Date: 05 September 2014

tracbot, start meeting

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#5_September_2014_teleconference

WCAG-EM Report Tool

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#5_September_2014_teleconference has specific questions

<shawn> report tool page 2 http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/#/audit/explore

<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/

Shadi: First is the cosideration of the fact that the tool follows WCAG_EM verbatim. So Step 2 is the Exploration part, where you determine what is to be included in the sample.
... if you find for example that HTML5 is in your site, then you know you must select pages that contain that technology. Similarly with Flash video players or something. But the common pages - site map, Home page, etc - will always be inlcuded.
... So in Step2 you have the option to make notes to yourself about your selection process, etc
... Then is Step 3 you have your sample pages as well as the notes, but also allows you to add the additional pages. There is concern about the complexity of this process. For those of us who are very familiar with WCAG-EM it is clear but maybe not as much as the remaining 6 billion people in the world.
... The suggestion is to keep Step 2 but leave only the introduction and link to Step2 in WCAG-EM for the detail.

<paulschantz> keep it the way it is

Shadi: it has the advantage to keep Step2 within the tool, consistent with the methodology. The disadvantage is that it is a bit of a disconnect, nd makes Step 3 very long and with references to both Step 2 and 3

<paulschantz> +1 sharron

<Wilco> +1 :D

Paul: I see it in step 3

Shadi: Yes it is in both that is the problem

Paul: It makes complete sense to me

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to comment on the multiple web page entry points

Shawn: Did anyone ask others to do this, informal usability testing?

Paul: No but that is an excellent suggestion.

<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

Kevin: It is including the idea of adding pages to the sample in multiple places which adds to the complexity.

Shadi: We have not put this into the hands of evaluators and gotten their feedback.

Paul: We have a universal design center that monitors tools and I could ask them to look, but have no guarantee of time

Shadi: I would be very interested in asking them to do that. The tool has a particular audience and that sounds like a good test group

Sharron: I asked folks at Texas state agencies (web accessibility monitors) and that feedback did not come up.

Jon: I have a group I could ask and get feedback by next week

Shawn: Yes we would love that. If you have people who are familiar with WCAG it would be most useful.

<shadi> [[Following the steps of WCAG-EM and using this tool to carry out a comprehensive accessibility evaluation of a website requires experience in evaluating accessibility using Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 2.0]]

Jon: People with a range of technical abilities I know would be very interested in doing this

Shadi: But note the introductory explanation of the audience, knowledgable about WCAG not expert consultants or anything but really must have knowledge of WCAG

<metzessive> I have a job because people are aware of WCAG, to a point of knowing it exists and what it's for.

<paulschantz> CSUN Universal Design Center uses WCAG 2.0 in web accessibility evals

Shadi: information outside of this core group is less useful
... This is the time to use it in practice. I have asked some of the folks from the Task Force to use this tool as they do their own evaluations. Time is really important, if you need more time let me know

<paulschantz> I'll try to get feedback by next Thursday

Jon: I will try to get that by Wednesday but for sure by Friday

Bim: I have used the tool for doing evaluations the one thing I missed on the heading for instruction for sample pages there was no link to more informaiton about that. I happened to know because of my experience with WCAG-EM but otherwise would not know

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say an inbetween possibility

Shadi: Good suggestion

Shawn: Here is a brainstorm what if we keep it like this to more closely match WCAG-EM and also address the usability issues. Add on step 2 that is visible all the time sayin something like here you can enter information about the essential functionality, next you will add specific pages

Shadi: The reason the notes show first is to give you reminder of how to elect pages that address the things you ahve found
... we missed the technologies relied upon because it is something that I need to know
... let's keep this open, see what input we get, and see if we need to do a major change

Shawn: If we decide to leave it, it will still be important to let people know on page 2 that they will be able to add more pages

Shadi: Sure that doesn't take a lot of effort and maybe add clarifiers to address Bim's experince as well and then see what feedback comes from usability testing

Wayne: Did I read wrong? I thought when you discover a certain functionality on step 2 you add the page there?

Shadi: Yes it is one of the confusing things in WCAG-EM and now the tool continues that
... OK for now we will make the minor edits for clarification and see what comes out of the testing
... please let me know when you have collegues using the tool so we can gauge the responses and know what to expect

Wayne: Looks great at 300% too

Shawn: Yes I am super impressed by so much about the tool, inlcuding this
... in terms of the timing. Last week Sharron sent the deadline info in an email. If at all possible get comments in by Wednesday, so we can review them on Thursday and preparein advance of the meeting on Friday

Shadi: Would that work that EO people can get feedback in by Wednesday and if you need more time just let me know
... Sharron will you send a reminder

Sharron: Yes

Shadi: In step 1 when you select your conformance target, only those SCs that match your selection will be displayed. But if you want to evaluate to Level2 but wish to inlcude some of AAA SCs there is a suggestion to be able to select beyond your conformance selection.
... at this time we do not have a way to do this except to ask for a higher level of confomrnace
... can show them all all the time, could have a toggle to say I want level2 conformance but show all.

Shawn: So the evaluator wants to report on some AAA but the conformance Level is only AA, how to report?

Shadi: Conformance target vs evaluation target

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#step1b

<shadi> [[Part of initiating the evaluation process is to define the target WCAG 2.0 conformance level ("A", "AA", or "AAA") for evaluation. WCAG 2.0 Level AA is the generally accepted and recommended target.]]

<shawn> Sharron: a lot of times people will say we want Level AA conformance, but we think it will be easy to do some parts of AAA. I've had several people ask for AA+ (a few of AAA).

Wilco: Seems to me that the conformance target term is confusing. Renaming it evaluation target does not match WCAG-EM. But in the final reports, we could make the distintion

<Wilco> WCAG-EM has "Additional evaluation requirements" for this

Sharron: My experience is that some companies pick and choose from higher levels than the conformance level.

<shawn> +1 for any solution that encourages people to look at all the SC ;-)

Shadi: My suggestion would be to have all of them in and then you would remove the ones you are not using

Kevin: When you are in the define scope phase what would the selct conformance level do?

Shadi: Yes

Kevin: I don't agree with that because it will add tremendous visual complexity

<paulschantz> +1 to Kevin's comment

Kevin: it changes the way people can concentrate and focus on what they actually need to do
... additionally the difference between the conformance level and the evaluation level

<Wayne> +1 with Kevin

Kevin: the evaluation is really what the tool focuses on and the terms are confusing rather than clarifying

<Wilco> Kevin pretty much said it all

Shadi: We have a selection by level but people may want to add a few items from a highr level

Wayne: I agree with Kevin and I think it should be additive rather than having to remove the ones you don't want to use

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say now plus

Shawn: In the usablity testing, it seemed to require a person to cheat the tool. I woould have to select AAA as my conformance target and then go back and edit the report

Shadi: How often did the issue arise? We are asking for something more finer grained?

Shawn: Sharron does. But for now lets define something we want in the future but accept certain limitations in version 1. So in future I coudl choose like = all A, all AA and cherry pick a few AAA

<Wilco> I'll make sure that feature is added to github

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to suggest "Hide 'Not Checked' in report"

Shawn: but for now, we need another solution

Kevin: To a certain extent we have that ability. It is not as clearly straightforward. A quick solution might be to simply hide not checked in the report

Shawn: One concern about that is that a person makes a mistake and it would not be found

Bim: Could tere be an addiitonal option in the combo box that will say "out of scope"

<kevin> Unless there is an 'Out of Scope' section in the report?

Shadi: You could mistakenly choose that as well and it could be give misleading results

Bim: If it only says that this SC was out of scope in the report

Wilco: I like Kevin's solution. Also a filter that allows you to choose SCs in process. When you choose AA it sets up those SCs and then in the following step you would add a function that allows you to add

Shadi: What I like about Bim and Kevin's suggestion to cherry pick is that it addresses partial conformance of higher levels

<paulschantz> The conformance level filter would not necessarily be obtrusive

Shadi: so let's say I select AA and in step 4 perhaps only the titles of AAA SCs are here and can be opted into.

Sharron: Can I ask about beta testing the tool at the AccessibilitySummit?

Shawn: With the caveats that it has not been announced or leaked, maybe but lets follow up later

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say (later) still keep all SC in the report? and to say what ex-col for each SC, it's just one line so not as cluttering? and to say nice to simplify step 4,

Shadi: We can come up with a solution but must balance resources

<yatil> +1 Shawn :-)

Shawn: Comments about doing stuff and deleting from the report seems too complex. I love the idea that on Step 4 you see the text of all SCs with the ones you ahve slected expanded. But an allowance is made to add the others - I love it!

Sharron: +1

Paul: 2 things. A conformance level filter would fit well on Step 4. The evaluator sets the target at the very start. so why would you need this?

Shadi: But you may want to let the web site owner know about a few other SCs, so I am in favor of the opt in/ opt out
... one other thing is in doing a usabilty test - what happens when you click "New report"
... it opens a new window landing on the start page
... was that what you expected?

Shawn: If I click new report, it goes back to the page, no new windo. In FF I do get a new window

Shadi: What do you expect?

<paulschantz> What platforms & browsers are we targeting? Current version minus one, or something else?

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask what happens to data in any existing report?

Shawn: New window is good, would have expected to be at step 1

Eric: I would expect a new tab and I wonder what happened to the things I entred before. I expected a confirmation message - do you really want to srat over - and get to Step 1 with all filds reset

Kevin: I wondered what happens to the data in your current report. Can you have mulitple reports with multiple window and multiple sets of data?

<metzessive> shouldn't it warn you that you are opening a new window?

Wilco: yes absolutely. You get a clean slate and the other one is sustained

<Wayne> that behavior is what I expected

Shadi: So OK some like it, Eric was surprised

<Zakim> EricE, you wanted to say that an indicator is needed on which page shows what

Shawn: Can we simply give the instruction about what till happen "opens a new window"

<paulschantz> +1 to Eric's comment

Eric: Yes it should have a title bar with the name of the different ones

<kevin> +1 to Eric

<paulschantz> very good

Shadi: When did you come across start a new report?

Shawn: I did not, it was only when I was investigating function.

Shadi: We will look at clarification of labeling. OK are there any other things to discuss?
... if you go to "Explore Web Site" there are common pages, type in short name and web address. You can add a new page and it jumps. Shawn has suggested more of a cycle which will improve the experince of adding pages one by one. Any thoughts on this from keyboard users?

<Wilco> +1

Bim: Yes it is something that I wanted as an ask. Taking the focus back to the new short name is useful, they are unlikely to be doing it all in a block
... I had to tab backwards three times so this would be an improvement

Shadi: We really need that feedback at this time, will bring in more questions and perhaps an updated tool.

Implementation Planning

Shadi: Kevin has been busily hammering away , got great comments from Paul thank you for those

<shawn> +1 to Paul's comment that the new organization works well with the key topics being ex-col

Shadi: especially like for people to look at Introduction section it is being rewritten to address framing and emphasize the iterative aspect of accessiiblity. Let's look at that and see if it helps positioning the approach and how to use it.

<shawn> [minor: mention the Improving doc, too?]

<shawn> Sharron: going in right direction. gives sense much better.

<shawn> ... so many people get handed the responsibility for accessibility, and this will be really helpful. I'd like to go through it in more detail

<paulschantz> It's REALLY different

<paulschantz> ...in a good way

Shadi: Areas where Key actions are expandable those are the sections ready for review

<shawn> Sharron: much improved

AnnaBelle: Thanks for the changes to the Intro it is a huge improvement, I REALLY like the rearrangement

<shawn> minor: "You may be planning to create a new website, have already begun the process and now need to consider accessibility, or looking to improve your organizational processes and policies." -- move new website last since that's least common? [I think Sharron will have good input on this text when she reviews it]

Shawn: The new organziation is beautiful

<shawn> [minor - key action "bullets" I think could be left aligned]

Shadi: For those who haven't reviewed it yet, consider the clarity of the intro, the ease of skimming, the flexible use of the docuemnt understanding that it will be used in various environments to support people in very different circumstances and nvironments

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say ex-col all button placement

Shawn: Placement of expand all buttons may be presented below the intro text so that it comes just before the first set of expandable buttons

Kevin: yes we can consider placement no final decisions were made

Shadi: Do people ge tthe sense of expand collapse from these buttons? Any design questions or comments?

Shawn: It underlines the whole line, which is great and teaches me right away that i don't have to just click on the little box

Wayne: Using this document is to make the point that it is circular, that you will come back to various steps

Sharron: +1

Bim: I've got three buttons for each point before the text. They are not all in the tab order, but are found with arrowing down

Shadi: Thanks for this input, Shawn back to you.

Shawn: Kudos to Kevin, would it be easy to put the headings ready for review easy to find?
... Any other questions on the implementation plan?
... on the tool saving, do we need more discussion?

WCAG-EM Report Tool

<paulschantz> can the tool auto-save similar to Google Docs?

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/#/

Shadi: For simplicity we called the landing page "Start" but in reality the Start occurs at Step 1. Suggestion to change the word

<paulschantz> New?

Bim: Introduction?

<paulschantz> Go?

<yatil> +1 to introduction or overview

<shawn> Sharron: agree to find another word. introdcution probably most useful. so what if it's boring

Shadi: Is Start just that bad that it needs changing?

Shawn: There are 2 start buttons

Shadi: If we rename the button, and consider design changes, does Start still work?

Shawn: Then I am fine calling it Start

<shawn> [ Shawn doesn't feel strongly either way]

Shadi: What do people feel about using the actual name (recognition) vs shortening?

Eric: I just noticed that the WCAGs are not the same but it is not confusing in the context. How about not using the subtitle in How to Meet?

<shawn> "How to Meet WCAG 2.0: A customizable quick reference"

Shawn: We might want to put more in the title

<yatil> +1 to shawn

Bim: That particular control is brilliant and accessible
... it even collapses when you use the ESC key

Shawn: Thanks for the extra time, anything else

Wayne: Magnificatin issue in knowing were I am, will take it up with Wilco

Shawn: Thanks for all the good considertion and problem solving today.

<metzessive> bye!

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

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Found Scribe: Sharron
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Default Present: Shawn, AnnaBelle, +, Sylvie, EricE, Jon, Bim, kevin, PaulSchantz, +1.562.256.aabb, Shadi, wayne, +1.512.797.aacc, Sharron, Wilco, metzessive
Present: Shawn AnnaBelle + Sylvie EricE Jon Bim kevin PaulSchantz +1.562.256.aabb Shadi wayne +1.512.797.aacc Sharron Wilco metzessive

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Found Date: 05 Sep 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/05-eo-minutes.html
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