Observer from TTA

yosuke: approve his participation in this call

tta: TTA is a telecom tech association in Korea

kaz: we can invite him to this specific call based on Yosuke's approval

yosuke: also simple liaison with them would be good
... so that we can invite them to the IG meeting at TPAC 2014

Use Cases discussion

<yosuke> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#Use_Cases

yosuke: walked through the new use case descriptions

- UC2-1 Audio Fingerprinting/UC2-2 Audio Watermarking

<kaz> UC 2-1

<kaz> UC 2-2

yosuke: let's begin with uc2-1
... added "Gaps" section
... three gaps
... no standard for syntax for Web APIs yet
... next feature for accessing hash generators
... hash modules for client devices
... may be proprietary algorithm
... we don't have I/F for that
... the third point is in-browser capability to generate hashes
... those are three potential gaps
... Daniel is the submitter of this UC
... so would like Daniel's opinion

ddavis: possibly the last one might not be implemented in browsers
... the first one could be important
... the second one could be related to EME
... could be used for not only fingerprinting but also other services

yosuke: so you mean we should concentrate on the second point?

ddavis: I think they all have potential but maybe "Feature to access proprietary hash generators." is the one that has most potential

yosuke: agree

ddavis: It could have more impact as it looks like it could be used for other algorithms as well, not just audio fingerprinting.

yosuke: if we carefully design external module for EME, we can reuse it for audio fingerprinting as well
... a generic API would be useful for both the use cases
... helpful for Web developers

paul: But I think watermarking is used when listening to content in a separate device.

yosuke: you can use that module for multiple devices
... not depending on concrete devices

paul: watermarking depends on device architecture, doesn't it?

yosuke: could be implemented independent from devices

paul: my understanding was watermarking was high frequency codes
... decoded by client devices

CyrilRa: You could also use a client-server structure for watermarking

paul: evidence-based and information-based

yosuke: we can clarify the models of watermarking
... might need help of proprietary modules
... if we create some new I/F, we should not define different I/F for fingerprinting and watermarking
... we should try to have generic architecture for both purposes
... that's my opinion
... make sense?

paul: could do that

ddavis: good to hear broader range of opinions

yosuke: this kind of modular model could be problematic
... users might be able to access the core module, e.g., EME
... but this time, even if we have proprietary modules, it's just generating hash data
... not directly related to the content
... so this modular system could be safer

paul: client-server mechanism?

ddavis: mainly thinking of client-side browser

paul: we should recommend using server-side approach

yosuke: basically this modular-based approach is safer
... but if there is anybody who cares, should we ask TAG or HTML-WG?

ddavis: the media tf of the HTML-WG

paul: thinking about something like XML HTTP Request
... local microphone captures sounds for apps

ddavis: APIs expose modules
... for external servers

paul: implementation could use XYZ server
... presentation generated by themselves (local-side)

ddavis: one more HTTP Request

yosuke: that sounds like the first gap

<yosuke> Client-server web interface (e.g. RESTful API) for fingerprinting services, both queries and returned results.

ddavis: yes

yosuke: interesting
... think we should ask actual audio fingerprinting providers for opinions
... good I/F between existing fingerprinting systems and Web services

ddavis: good idea

yosuke: after this call, the co-Chars and the Team Contacts should contact actual fingerprinting providers
... also should talk with related W3C groups, e.g., HTML WG Media TF
... what do you think?

(no objections)

<kaz> ACTION: yosuke to work with Kaz/Daniel and contact wartermarking/fingerprinting providers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webtv-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-206 - Work with kaz/daniel and contact wartermarking/fingerprinting providers [on Yosuke Funahashi - due 2014-09-10].

<kaz> ACTION: yosuke to talk with related W3C groups about possible architecture for watermarking/fingerprinting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webtv-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-207 - Talk with related w3c groups about possible architecture for watermarking/fingerprinting [on Yosuke Funahashi - due 2014-09-10].

yosuke: maybe not only the HTMLWG but also SysApps WG

ddavis: maybe WebApps and Audio as well

kaz: maybe VBWG as well

yosuke: yes

- UC2-3 Identical Media Stream Synchronization

<kaz> UC 2-3

<ddavis> scribenick: ddavis

kaz: Identical stream synchronization gaps have been identified as:
... "No ability to use existing synchronization data within a stream. "
... "No way to accurately synchronize the presentation of media elements on multiple devices (with the same media source)."
... We thought this use case is for related multiple streams as well (the next use case).
... There is a lack of synchronization mechanism for multiple streams (identical or not)

<kaz> scribenick: kaz

yosuke: media capability of HTML5 doesn't have accurate synchronization mechanism
... we should dig into that issue
... from a fundamental viewpoint
... not only for TV industry but also various Web apps
... during the upcoming IG f2f meeting at TPAC, we'll talk about a possible CG for media stream synchronization
... already have second screen CG, but no group for media synchronization in general
... at the same time, need to know synchronization mechanism outside W3C
... e.g., HbbTV, Hybridcast (IPTVF-Japan), etc., have their own approach
... so would suggest we talk about generating a possible CG or a TF within this IG for that topic
... what do you think?

kaz: myself like creating a TF within this IG
... but would ask all for opinions

yosuke: several possible solutions
... a TF within this IG
... a new CG
... or a TF within the HTML-WG
... which would be the best for us?

<bill> I agree - leveraging and aligning other standards is especially relevant. ALso note AllPlay.

yosuke: would talk about that during TPAC
... CG has a strong point and a weak point
... we should talk about those points carefully

kaz: so you want to add this topic to the TPAC f2f agenda?

<Paul_Higgs> sorry, I have to leave now

yosuke: we can even ask related groups for opinions before TPAC
... might be going to hold a joint session with other groups, e.g., the HTML-WG
... because this is related to media element
... any objections?

(no objections)

<Geun_Hyung_Kim> I

- UC2-3 Identical Media Stream Synchronization

-> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-4_Related_Media_Stream_Synchronization UC 2-4

yosuke: this has some unique gaps from the previous one

<ddavis> scribenick: ddavis

kaz: This use case is related to the previous one.
... Gaps identified so far:
... "No ability to use existing synchronization data within a stream."
... "No way to accurately synchronize multiple media elements in a single document (with different but related media sources)."
... "No way to deal with timestamp differences in related media streams. Note that the timestamp formats may differ in the streams, e.g. if one is 24 fps and one is 60 fps."
... This third gap is quite unique and different to the previous use case.

<kaz> scribenick: kaz

yosuke: yes, the third one is most important
... how to deal with synchronization?
... would note that and move on

ddavis: time stamp format question

yosuke: current work doesn't include this kind of capability
... we can ask their interest

kaz: who do you mean by they?

yosuke: media in-band CG and TTML WG
... synchronization between text track and media track

yosuke: any other questions?

(nothing)

yosuke: let's move forward

- UC2-5 Triggered Interactive Overlay

-> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-5_Triggered_Interactive_Overlay UC 2-5

ddavis: overlay on the top of TV and overlay itself
... lot of things done
... HTML dialog could be used
... and this use case should focus on TV use cases
... when something changes, e.g., commercial or channels
... the UC talks about binding and content
... no way for binding outside TV area
... label element
... no binding between elements

[[

Extended media events to notify of things like section and scene changes (e.g. commercial break) and change of media source (e.g. change of channel).

No standard to bind video content with in-browser objects.

]]

bin: the gap is pretty much inline with the requirement of the TV Control CG
... fine-tune events
... for interactive overlay
... based on pre-defined schedule

<ddavis> https://www.w3.org/community/tvapi/wiki/Main_Page/Technical_Requirement#Triggered_Interactive_Overlay_Requirements

bin: conditions of triggering events
... dispatched based on different conditions
... the gap analysis is inline with what we have been discussing
... in-band method and out-band method

yosuke: sounds like it's relevant to bring this UC to the TV Control API CG
... any other comments?

(nothing)

- UC2-6 Clean Audio

-> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-6_Clean_Audio UC 2-6

yosuke: clarified two gaps

[[

No way to accurately synchronize multiple media elements in a single document (with different but related media sources).

No way to equalize content-protected (e.g. with EME) audio tracks.

]]

yosuke: even service providers, e.g., Netflix and YouTube, provide clean audio in addition to ordinary track
... synchronization mechanism is needed
... we should work on that
... we can deal with this kind of important feature (synchronization) within one new group/tf
... the second one
... using Web APIs, we can equalize ordinary audio track
... using Web Audio APIs
... but impossible for users to change the tone
... we should ask the Accessibility TF guys to deal with this
... also with the HTML Media TF
... ask them about their opinions on the gaps
... what do you think?

ddavis: sounds like good idea
... at least good starting point
... asking the a11y tf and the media tf

yosuke: we can talk about this topic and other accessibility issues during the f2f meeting at TPAC
... maybe we can have a brief talk during our IG meeting with them (a11y tf)
... also talk about how to deal with this use cases

kaz: during the a11y tf's meeting?

yosuke: accessibility tf should be going to hold their meeting at TPAC
... and so I think we should invite them to our IG meeting

kaz: so we'll invite the A11Y TF guys to the Web&TV IG meeting on Monday
... and some of the Web&TV IG participants will visit the A11Y TF on Thu/Fri
... ok
... I'll talk with Janina about the possible slots

yosuke: tx
... on Monday we'll have a joint session with the A11Y guys during the IG meeting
... the IG meeting will be held on Monday
... their meeting will be held on Thu/Fri
... we should announce the agenda to the IG meeting participants
... the sooner, the better

kaz: +1

<scribe> ACTION: kaz to talk with Janina about the joint session slot during TPAC 2014 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-webtv-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-208 - Talk with janina about the joint session slot during tpac 2014 [on Kazuyuki Ashimura - due 2014-09-10].

yosuke: any other questions?

(nothing)

yosuke: will summarize today's discussion and update the wiki based on the discussion
... also will draft agenda for TPAC f2f
... will put it on the wiki
... and share the information with the co-Chairs and the IG participants
... we've started to think about the agenda, so need to finalize the possible joint meeting with the A11Y TF

Next call

yosuke: in 2 weeks, i.e., Sep. 17th
... will talk about TPAC agenda during the call
... might be going to have an unconference style

kaz: the TV Control CG will use the morning sessions

bin: will finalize it soon

<Zakim> ddavis, you wanted to remind about second screen questionnaire

<ddavis> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/secondscreen/ (Member-only)

Second Screen Presentation WG

ddavis: please ask your AC Rep. to respond the questionnaire by Sep. 22

yosuke: any other business?

skim13: given we'll talk about the TPAC agenda, can we invite TTA guys to the next call on 17th as well?

yosuke: would like to talk with the other co-Chairs as well first
... would some more information from you and TTA
... we should handle this carefully

[ adrjouned ]