- Minutes -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

15 Aug 2014


The majority of today's meeting was spent in consideration of the progress on the WCAG-EM Report Tool, specifically on the text content. Shadi asked that the group consider all text content, including how buttons are labeled, the content of the info boxes, and the introductory sentences. EO participants appreciated the succint nature of the content and had additonal suggestions for brevity and clarity. One suggestion that had support was to introduce each paragraph on the first page with a bold short phrase to denote a kind of inline sub-heading. Three things were called out for emphasis - the fact that the tool does not do automated evaluation, the fact that you can continue to test without internet connectivity, and the fact that you can save and print at any point. It was noted that many phrases are transferred directly from within the text of the WCAG-EM Note. A more active voicing was suggested and less formal tone in some cases. Discussion of the title included observation that we refer to it as WCAG-EM Report Tool - why not use that name explicitly? A discussion of the Next button placement (placed right or centered) included these points:

Sharron agreed to research and report on Best Practice for this. Praise was given for the icon interaction and animation. The second page was considered to have too much introductory text and the suggestion was made to boil down to one clear sentence and eliminate the rest. General agreement for this page and to use this technique on all following pages. Contrast questions for text and icons were raised. A suggestion was made to link to additional WAI resources when it made sense to so and Shadi asked the group to brainstorm in the wiki for link text. as possible these changes will be implemented by mid-week and Shadi asked to keep comments coming in the wiki.

Next the group got a first peek at the Accessibility Support Database and was asked for first reaction. Most said it was confusing and needed some explanation of what it is, what it's for. Finally we took a look at current and upcoming reviews of documents in development. In the next 6 weeks we will have substantial materials to review and comment on. Please try to get in the practice of setting aside time early and mid week so that comments are registered and we use conference time to discuss and resolve any issues that arise. Thanks all.



Shadi, Shawn, Sharron, Jonathan, AnnaBelle, Andrew, Jan, Helle
Vicki, Eric, Denis, Howard, Paul
Sharron, Andrew


WCAG EM report tool

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/#/

<shawn> [ shawn notes the font size is still too small -- especially in comparison to the Tutorials & WAI website ]

Shadi: Wilco and I have been working on several things. Trying to close the bug list. Will come back to the functions mentioned earlier. For today, however I would like to focus on text - ALL of the text. Please look at text included in labels, button, info boxes, intro materials and all. What needs more explanation. Remember that it is a balancing act. We want the tool to be most targeted to somewhat experienced people and yet want it to be useful and basically comprehensible to everyone.

Sharrron: Earlier, you said you wanted to keep text to a minimum. Is that still the case?

Shadi: Yes, with a good blanace between too much and too little.
... so let's start on the first page. From the link in the agenda, the first page is an h1 WCAG-EM...Generator. Everyone there? This is where a user when land when using the tool. Tried to set expectation and allow users who are experienced to use the startt function.

Annabelle: It is good to see how succinct it is. I would suggest to further break up the text, maybe with a bold phrase and a colon to show the sectional paragrpahs. Even though the text is short, people may skim. If you have a bold summary phrase they can know what they are skipping.

Shadi: I like that idea.

<Andrew> did Jan mean like "generate a report" / "following WCAG-EM" / "runs locally" ?

<Andrew> +1 to just bolding an opening phrase

Shadi: Do people have preferences with inline headings, not really headings but a bolded phrase...would that be sufficiently picked up?

Jan: People may not read all this text even though it is very well done and succinct, but there are a few key things that I think should be emphasized - the fact that it does not do the eval, the fact that you can continue without internet connectivity, and that you can save and print at any point.
... those three things that popped out to me as being importnat about how you use it.

Shadi: I wonder if for different readers there would be other important things,..

Jan: I am not saying these need to be bolded, just that these are the things that stood out to me.

Shadi: Is the text short enough that you need way-finding markers or would you want ways to find a point you are trying to recall?

<Helle> the link from the agenda shows an empty page on my laptop

Jan: I personally like bulleted lists, but it would be good to hear from others who do not see the whole thing .

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to mention reading

Shadi: So I am hearing that both Jan and AB think the text is short enough with AB's point that perhaps a bolded phrase to help.

Andrew: Yes it is well written and quite clear. I rather like AB's suggestion for a bolded phrase but not sure it is entirely needed. It would be good for the first time through but after that would not be needed.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest active voice, e.g., "Following the steps of WCAG-EM and using this tool to carry out a comprehensive accessibility evaluation of a website requires

<Jan> Is WCAG-EM supposed to be the acronym for "Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology?"

<Andrew> yep

<Jan> The way it's written it appears as though that is the intent, but the letters don't align.

Shawn: I wonder about using more active language, I noticed the use of "you" which is good. But some sentences, especially the second one, could be changed to ssomething like "in order to follow a comprehensive eval using WCAG-EM you will need...."

Shadi: You will find that often the phrases here are directly from WCAG-EM. We spent a lot of time OKing the text in WCAG-EM. So I don't want to change the meaning and would like to hear what are the pros and cons of changing the language. Let's keep that in mind as we go through the other pages.

Shawn: OK but I am thinking that the WCSAG-EM is a published note but this has another purpose. There are likely to be instances where we can make language more active, but should maintain a high threshold for changing it.

AnnaBelle: I am all about having friendly text, I think in this case, the fact that it is a tool allows the text to be not quite as friendly.

<Andrew> +1 to AnnaBelle, but can't hurt to use more active language if obvious

Shadi: OK we will keep that in mind. Jan asked about the acronym.

Jan: Yes, usally the acronym follows the beginning initial of each word. It may just be me being an English teacher, but this is not quite the same. it would be WAC-EM if an acronym.

Shadi: Does anyone else stumble over this?

Shawn: 2 things: First this tool is designed for people who know and are using WCAG-EM. It's true that the short name is not an acronym but it is spelled out and I feel it is clear enough as it is, but that is not a strong feeling.

<AnnaBelle> terse is what matters most IMO

Shawn: Not advocating for "friendly" voice but active voice because it is easier to understand.

Shadi: Is the title too long, is it OK?

Jan Title is good

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments#Title

<shawn> WCAG Reporter {Wilco}

<shawn> WCAG-EM Report Tool {Shawn}

<shawn> WCAG Audit Reporter {Kevin White, 19-Jun-2014}

<Jan> There is a typo - "Also, efore evaluating an entire website ..." should be "before" evaluating ....

Shadi: We had a discussion about the name, but not sure that we need to spell it out anywhere. Do we need more, do we need less?

Shawn: The question is whether we have WCAG-EM or not?

Shadi: Maybe a subtitle "creating reports using WCAG-EM"

<AnnaBelle> +1 to shadi's subtitle

<Andrew> +1 to subtitle - emphasises WCAG-EM upfront

Shawn: I would like input on the question of whether the WCAG-EM Report tool is a preferable title?

AnnaBelle: I like it as a newbie that it is spelled out as a lead title

<Jan> +1 to Annabelle's title comment - I like having it spelled out.

<metzessive> I think you should title it what you guys refer to it as and use the long form for the title

Shadi: We can come back to this after we have looked at a few pages and see how relevant WCAG-EM actually is. We want to encourage people to use this methodology but do they need to know that it is, in fact, WCAG-EM?

<metzessive> *sub title

<metzessive> yes

<shawn> [ /me will suggest a few other minor wording tweaks in the wiki ]

Shadi: So the question of a subtitle seems to have positive response, then we need to determine which is title and which subtitle

Jon: I think it should it be titled as you refer to it which most often is "WCAG-EM Report tool" with a subtitle if needed. I also like the idea of breaking it into subheadings: What the Tool Does, What the Tool does not Do. Using headings to break up the text to an even greater extent. The sentence that Shawn called out is very wordy and could be broken into two sentences and made more focused.

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments

Shadi: We have a wiki page for comments. I would direct people to that page and ask that you put suggestions into the wiki or send to the list by email.
... I have a question about the heading text. So far we have gone in the direction of using an inline heading so each paragraph announces its intent. Would that address your concern?

Jon: yes I think that would help.
... regarding Jan's 3 things I think it would be so cool to have those three quick things jump out and have their awesome qualities made immediately clear.

<shawn> [ Shawn's suggestion will include to put the positive first " It helps you..." rather than " The tool does not..." (but I realize the first is an important point) ]

<AnnaBelle> short name may be good branding?

Shawn: About what it is called - remember that you recently did an overview with a document that did not have a short name and how difficult it was. Since people will refer to this as the WCAG-EM Report tool or something short. So if we can define that and recognize the use of a short name, it would be wise.

<Andrew> but WCAG is the givaway in "WCAG-EM Report Tool"

Shadi: My concern is if we call it WCAG-EM Report Tool, what will be the reaction of people who have not heard of WCAG-EM?

Andrew: WCAG is the give away and people will be familiar enough to make the connection.

<metzessive> +1 to branding

<shawn> +1 to Andrew that WCAG is recognizeable in WCAG-EM

AnnaBelle: It might be good branding to associate the two. Before we leave this page, wanted to note that the button is terrific, the design of it is just great. Kudos!

Shadi: To Wilco

Andrew: If using a magnifier, you may not see the button and will have to search around the page.

Shadi: But is it in an expected place for such a navigation element?

Shawn: On the start page, it is not as much of an issue, in my opinion. You are reading the text and it leads you right up to the button. On subsequent pages it could be an issue however.

<Andrew> that is usual practice - and it is always a problem for some!

Shadi: So what is the best practice? I see many conversations about this and don't think there has emerged a definitive solution. Is this predictable enough?

Shawn: On the following pages, even if I have the entire screen in the width, I am very strongly focused to the left so I wonder if centering the Next Step button might work just as well for those without as well as those with screen magnification.

<Andrew> yes - 'define scope' is very LHS oriented, so 'next' button on right gets even more lost

Shadi: How about the fact that it breaks convention? Where will people be looking for that?

Shawn: I think it will work well for everyone and not break the flow for anyone.

Shadi: Let's see where it is on the other pages and the flow of previous and next?
... I would not want to mix the way it is presnted

Shawn: Agreed

Shadi: Notice the clickable progress bar, so you can move through using the button or the progress bar. Moving on to the next page, please notice the info boxes, the text within them and consider if they describe well enough what the page is what it does. If you were here for the first time, are the instructions helpful?

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say (after others have) that I think can cut it down & link to WCAG-EM section

<metzessive> I LOVE the animation when you click the information icon.

Shawn: I think a whole lot of the info text could be shortened or eleiminated. The first is redundant, you can tell by skimming, etc

<AnnaBelle> +1 to shawn on redunancy

Shadi: The idea here is to use the show and hide function and there has been a question of doing even more explanation.

Shadi: the sentence you called out - should it be tossed or better explained?

<metzessive> Better explained. Keep it in laymen terms

Shawn: Tossed

Shadi: Then we have the dependency that someone would have to read WCAG-EM before using it.

<metzessive> I thought you needed to do that to use this tool though?

Shawn: That's a good question, but it I have not read it, I don't understand what this sentence is saying or what is its intention. Especially if not familiar with WCAG-EM, I don't understand what I am expected to get from the last few sentences.

Shadi: It means to say that in order to use the tool you must do some preliminary exploration of the website. Is that exploration something that should be explained better or how to address that?

<Helle> +1 to Shawn

Shawn: It is explicit in the next step so I don't think it is necessary at all.

Shadi: Does anyone feel that with improved wording that any part of this is relevant enough to wordsmith? What is important enough to say about this page?

<metzessive> Wow. I just got rid of it altogether in Chrome. I now agree just to eliminate it.

Andrew: I think we can cut down on the intro text

<Jan> I think the only really important sentence is the second sentence. The first sentence basically repeats the title and the information implied by the fields and the last sentence seems unnecessary.

Shadi: So what IS important as intro text?

Andrew: First is covered in info boxes, second sentence is good in some form, others seem redundant.

Shadi: OK and is there anything missing that should be here?
... the question of if you don't know some basics, you should not be here anywhere - is that the approach we want?

Andrew: If you explore the tool a bit, and feel that you don't understand, you should not be using the tool.

<Andrew> for newbies, then the hints should be sufficient

Shadi: But what about those who are trying to build expertise - what supports should we give to them?

Shawn: Even in that case, the information provided here does not seem useful.

Jon: I just omitted the intro paragraph entirely in Chrome and it was great - I now think we don't need it at all. The info boxes are brilliant and are useful. This is meant as a eval tool not a teaching tool. I am not an expert on the WCAG-EM but I could use the tool without all the redundant text. You could clearly get more if you ARE more familiar with WCAG-EM but a person who knows how to do evals can set it up and tweak it as needed and pass along to colleagues.

<shawn> kudos to Wilco for the (i)'s and to Shadi for the wording!

Shadi: The animation and all design aspects all credit to Wilco. I like your idea about linking to relevant parts of WCAG-EM and thanks for those comments.

<Andrew> note: info boxes fail contrast requirements (both text and close X)

Jan: The design is so nice, the basic steps are clear, if you need more info it is provided in the info boxes. Maybe the second sentence is all you need. I am confused by the term "evaluation commissioner" but that is the only sentence that seems not redundant with info box content.

Shadi: All of these terms and sentences are directly taken from WCAG-EM so do we need to just link to those definitions? or does sentence 2 need to be there?

Jan: Yes, I think it needs to be there.

Shawn: Jan's reaction is a good reason not to take text directly from WCAG-EM. You could effectively reduce all of it to one sentence and link to WCAG-EM for those who need more.

Shadi: I have a specific question for the group. If you expand the info box, can select to open in a new tab or window. We don't want people to inadvertantly leave the page. Does the new tab/window need to be more explicitly called out? Is it expected behavior or more of a suprise?

<Andrew> +1 to adding icon

Shawn: is there a reason not to?

Shadi: Visual grace, elegance and clarity

Shawn: Are the text boxes clear enough?

shawn: no border doesn't help

<Jan> The text boxes need to be darker

<metzessive> A thicker stroke would be better.

Jan: the text boxes need to be darker - ahainst the white background

<AnnaBelle> like the lighter border for aesthetic reasons, but agree that needs to change for folks with vision issues.

Andrew: also the text needs checking for contrast

<metzessive> good. on all points

Shadi: a box stays expanded if you expand another one
... however, if you move forward and then back it becomes closed
... is this a problem?

annabelle: it's fine

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask expand-collapse all (or not worth the clutter)?

Shawn: I think it is fine if I expand it it stays on the page, when I leave and come back it is collapsed. I wondered about "expand all"

<Andrew> I also wondered about expand all at top too

Shadi: I think it too much clutter, Wilco likes to add functionality

<Andrew> this is not a tutorial - it's for experienced users

AnnaBelle: I agree with Shadi, too much clutter.

<Andrew> +1 to (i) opening/closing feature

Shawn: I like the fact that when I open it, I can click on the i to close as well as he X

Shadi: Any other comment here?

<shawn> brainstorm: Key Resources

Shadi: Can we get a general response on where people are at about this suggestion?

Andrew: Many references that seem as though they could be supported by other WAI resources - should we cite them?

<shawn> +1 for "Resources"

Shadi: Terms like Key readings? Key resources? how would people understand what the lead is too?

<Jan> +1 to resources

<Andrew> resources / references seemed to have more meaning to me - not sure why 'important'

AnnaBelle: I like the icongraphy of the links and agree with Andrew

Shadi: Shall we dump some brainstorms into the wiki. I can do that after the call and people can add their votes and ideas in teh wiki.

<metzessive> if you want an indication of how it would look to collapse after you expanding a dropdown, see this page on "Technical Issues of Autism" from a functional perspective: http://theemergencesite.com/Tech/TechIssues-Autism-OCD-Aspergers-ADD.htm

Shawn: Yes agree

<metzessive> +1 to center it

Shadi: Now let us consider the Next button on the right. Imagine them differently.

Shawn: Why not try it with both centered and see how it lands for people?

Shadi: I expect to find it on the right, emphasizes the "Next" aspect and so would like to see where others are with this. Don't like it centered

AnnaBelle: I have a slight preference for how it is now

<Andrew> option for users to setup own preference? ;-)

<metzessive> lol

Shadi: I will check with Wilco on this. In the meantime, it would be great if people could look around at generally accepted practices and document it in the wiki. Most of the rest of the pages are analogous. After the call however, I would ask people to look at and comment on Step 4
... with that in mind, let's return to the Start page and consider the title.

<shawn> +1 to people wanting to use the tool and then getting motivated to learn WCAG-EM

Shadi: there is a strong tie-in between WCAG-EM and the tool however we want people to be able to use the tool and perhaps learn about WCAG-EM through palying with it. So do we want WCAG-EM Report Tool as the title with a more drawn out subtitle, or do we need to de-emphasize it wnad put WCAG-EM in the subtiutle?

Sharron: Strongly favor WCAG-EM Report tool

Shawn: One idea is to have the short names as the subtitle.

<Andrew> Sharron: I do feel strongly - the title should reflect what we call it and refer to it by

<shawn> Website Accessibility Evaluation Report Generator (WCAG-EM Report Tool)

<shawn> Website Accessibility Evaluation Report Generator: WCAG-EM Report Tool

<shawn> WCAG-EM Report Tool: Website Accessibility Evaluation Report Generator

<Andrew> WCAG-EM Report Tool / Website Accessibility Evaluation Report Generator

<Helle> agree with Sharron

<Andrew> suggest dropping the colon and just have line break

<shawn> +1 to Andrew

<shawn> ftr, I agree to have the "handle" in the title/heading, but I'm not sure about which should be first

Shadi: Conceptually, if we have WCAG-EM Report Tool as the front running title, is there anyone who wants to speak against that as the lead?

<Jan> +1 to WCAG-EM Report Tool: Website Accessibility Evaluation Report Generator

Andrew: If we will refer to it as WCAG-EM Report Tool as long as it is in the title or subtitle, it probably doesn't matter

Shadi: We suggested a number of changes today. Either we can implement them and allow EO to look at it or should we just keep comments coming in until Wednesday and then try to rework?

Shawn: We have gone through two pages, so maybe you can implement those changes and everyone will consider the remaining pages and put comments in the wiki?

Shadi: Let's say if you go to step 2 for example, and your reaction is to remove the intro section and replace with a brief sentence and a link to the WCAG-EM specifics, that is consistent wiht what we said today. So if you have contradictory feeling and want to put those into the wiki.

Jan: I can do the review before Wednesday - with a focus on text content.

<Helle> what date is next week

AnnaBelle: I can do it but not sure I have much more to add beyond what I said today.

<Helle> will try

<Helle> the text?

Jon: I can take a look and provide comments.

Shawn: Just comments on text at this point, not function. If it turns out that we are going to do something entirely different, may not be worth time to do fine wordsmithing. This is for ALL the text, including button labels, save report dialogues...all of the text

<Helle> ok for me

Sharron: You are not changing the buttons placement yet, are you?

Shadi: I will check with Wilco about the difficulty of making that change for review. But would prefer that EO find examples and design proactices that are favored in comtemporary design so we make a decision based on practice rather than personal preference.

Sharron: I'm willing to search for examples and best practice documentation. I tend to favor having Next button centered, but think it good to search for best practice. I will do that.

<shawn> ftr, I'm personally OK with it on the right, but am aware of the accessibility issues

Shadi: any closing comments?

Accessibility Support DataBase

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/

Shadi: This tool is very different and wanted EO to be aware of it. Not asking for detailed review or input but wanted EO to know that we are crowdsourcing the question of how well WCAG is supported in various browsers, AT, devices, platforms. it is meant for members of the public to contribute their findings. At this time, it is often disbursed on personal blogs and such and we are seeking a

central repository.

scribe: I am curious about people's reaction to this page. How do you understand the landing page?

Helle: It looks really wierd in the IE browser.

Shadi: What version?

Helle: an older one is what we are allowed to use here

Shadi: We did have to do a cutoff

<metzessive> I'm not sure what this thing is for

Sharron: just coming in cold, I am confused

<metzessive> LOL I was just thinking that

Shawn: it needs a sentence at least saying what is this?

<Andrew> +1 to overview sentence required

Sharron: When you introduced it I was excited to hear about the tool - very useful to the community. But the landing page is not intuitive about what to do, how to use.

Andrew: I understood it but still think it would be good to have an explanation of what it is , how to contribute etc

Shawn: and yes, brief, very brief into, 2 sentences max.

Shadi: Andrew if you know people who may wnat to contribute - we are not opening to the public yet, but welcome participation byt those you would recommend.

Shawn: Not announcing this yet, but encourage participation by those who might be prime users.

Current Reviews

<shawn> Media Accessibility User Requirements

Shawn: Media Acessibility User requirements. it is formally out for review. We wnat to sync it with "How PWD Use..." it is an interesting read and I would ask people to take a look and see who might be willing to do a full review.

Sharron: I will follow up with the group to see who might review

Upcoming reviews

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Coming_Soon

Shawn: In the next 6 weeks, we have a considerable amount of work to review. Shadi, Kevin and eric are working hard to get drafts with us by Tuesdays. Strongly encourage everyone to make time to review, make comments before the teleconference so that we can make the best use of the time.
... coming up is the Planning and Implementing..There are specific questions in teh wiki, please respond if you ahve opinions on those. They will have a revision by Tuesday so try to review the progress and be prepared to discuss.
... given the amount of items that we have for consideration, please try to review in advance prepare for focused discussion on the call. We are on a schedule of quick turnaround. We may only have one or two calls for discussion and will rely on your review during the week.
... any questions or comments.

<Helle> yes please

Shawn: Do peoplewant an email everytime things are ready for review?

<Andrew> +1 to email reminderwith link

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask where comments

Shawn: We have come up with various ways to make comments, wiki, GitHub, surveys, email, etc. Does anyone have strong feelings about any of those? Particularly about how well the surveys work?

<Andrew> WBS good for final publication - forces formal review

AnnaBelle: I LOVE GitHuband the way it is set up and easy to interact with. Not crazy about surveys but will do them.

<Jan> Bye everyone!

<metzessive> Bye

Sahwn: Andrew's point is important. and we are at the end of the hour. Additional questions or comments? Happy Friday stay alert to the review work and if you can log questions comments about WCAG-EM tool and Planning/Implementing today it would be great. Thanks all, bye

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014/08/19 18:43:17 $