<trackbot> Date: 24 March 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0078.html

<scribe> scribeNick:jamesn

Thanks to task force for ARIA 1.0

RS: has become like Kleenex in the a11y space
... glad we got it out

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/2014/03/aria.html.en

RS: waiting on hackathon results
... Comcast using ARIA in their STB which is cool
... want to thank Janina and everyone for putting the special aknowledgements in
... back to work
... first thing want to talk briefly on the UAIG
... we have eager people so how soon can we get the coordination going

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/

<jongund> I will be back in a minute

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_role_table

MC: first want to start a conversation with the editors and get questions about the source format done
... ready to start that soon. That will help us decide how easy it will be to divide the docs up
... then would come to the structural discussion. Made some progress a the F2F but still have some work to do

<mattking> anyone else having trouble with conf bridge?

MC: can getr to a place where we have preliminerary docs within a month. For now clown and JC can work on the existing docs

RS: want to get some decisions before I go on vacation
... we have a very agressive schedule. every day we lose is a problem

MC: us having not completely solidifed this doesn't stop you starting work

RS: I dopn't like duplicating work. are we going to use github, will it be respec etc.

MC: want to revisit some decisions with the editors

RS: we also need Steve in the conversations

JC: we don't need to move all of the documents over

JS: should deal with our own docs first

MC: we have never even sorted out if we want to take the HTML5 document over

JS: I think we did. Maybe we need to log a resolution
... I thinnk it would be a TF deliverable that is joint with HTML and PF

MC: need to make sure we have the same decision with the SVG WG
... I don;ty think the format matters at this stage. It would mostly be copy/paste
... doesn't have to stop you getting started

<mattking> bend, OR

RS: I would really like to make a decision
... I was asking can we have a meeting b4 i go on vacation

clown: I have a standing meeting at 1 EDT on Wed. Could we use that

<clown> #pf-editors

MC: has been some time since we have used it
... will send a starter email to the relevant people

<debate on meeting time>

JC: can't speak as to how easy it is to break the document up using respec
... I almost always reference the single page document
... anecdotaly i don't see much benefit splitting up the document
... It is not super long like HTML5

MC: lets get a proposal and then bring it back to the group
... hopefully can have a proposal by next monday and then can start thinking about the break up of the moduls
... will then maybe be able to resume that discussion. My sense we haven't fully agreed where the modules will be broken up
... I think we can start that
... should also include steve and mark + PF editors

process discussion. Domininc has been looking at ewb components.

RS: with web components cannot reference content within web components
... wants to propose an effort which would allow aria-activedescendent to reference something in the sub DOM
... what is the process for doing this? I don't know if there is precedence
... we want to encourage people to do additional work to expand on the docs

JC: when and how did he mention this?

RS: was in conversation with me in the Google room at CSUN

JC: have him send what he is thinking about to one of the lists or get it in bug tracker somehow
... I added a response to the agenda for this topic as we have been thinking about this for a while
... It could be possible to get to shadow dom using vvarious selectors

JS: lets clear up the process soncerns

RS: not the technical issue i am concerned about but the process

MC: 1st of all web components is a w3c technology - I would not expect to corrdinate directly with WHATWG
... on the basis of JC comments. One could be a question of how you would support it. We could come back with a proposal etc. 2nd is looking at a corrdination request and if so wouyld need to open up a channel with the web apps group
... I think we should do this with the relevant W3C groups

RS: He made no mention of doing things with the web apps group

<jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0080.html

<bgaraventa1979> Is this related to spanning document objects? E.G reference a node in an iframe document from a parent document using aria-activedescendant? If not, it might be good to think about too

RS: that would not work. would have to find a way around that.

JC: I think BG is proposing that the solution could include a solution for that
... shadow DOM components are like a mini iframe but it executes in the same domain and process.
... cross-domain references could have potential security risks and performance issues

RS: he didn't mention iframes
... I'll send a note to the list

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0071.html

Meaty issues

<MichaelC> action-1397?

<trackbot> action-1397 -- Jon Gunderson to Create proposal to fill out aria semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) -- due 2014-03-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1397

JG: went through the HTML spec and looked at the table stuff and tried to map the aria roles into a format that would work in the aria spec
... about 10 new roles
... about 4 new properties

JC: I think we can do it with 2 or 3 more roles
... need table. Grid should be a sub class of table
... I don;t think we need cpation
... col and colgroup I'm not sure we need. perhaps can come back to them
... TR and TH we have with row and row and col headers
... TD we currently have as gridcell. Had proposed to add a cell role and gridcell becomes a synonym for grid
... tables would be the same as grids except would use a table role.
... don't need aria-headers as aria-labelledby

JG: headers is different from labelledby

<jcraig> roles: table, cell.

JG: if you use the currenty algorithm it replaces the text

JC: we need that the cell should calculate its value from its contents not its label

<Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask about Table Summary ... Should we use ARIA-DescribedAt on Tables to restore Table Summary?

<jcraig> attributes: aria-colspan and aria-rowspan

JS: missing from the list in my estimation is whatever we need to do to restore table summary
... had looked at describedat to be allowed
... describedby or describedat would be used for summary

<jcraig> I think these roles are already covered in ARIA 1.0: caption, tbody, thead, tfoot, tr, td. th

MK: was looking from an inheritance perspective and see that column headers has section headers apparent
... tables will be structure whereas grid is a widget

<jcraig> these attrs are already covered in aria 1.0 aria-headers (via labelledby), aria-scope (via columnheader, rowheader roles)

MK: do we run into anything if we use columnheader in a structural table

<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#row

JG: this is why i proposed new roles due to the inheritance

MK: we need to look at things like selection etc.
... how do you represent the difference in inheritance depending on the context

RS: the localized role descriptions - will have to pick certain attributes which are not inherited
... what we don't currently do in 1.0 is say that a specific state or property is not inherited. Am going to want to do that with the localized roleised role descriptioin. It is related to the table topic aS we may need the saME SOLTUion for tables

MK: the role of one of the parents determines things. If you are a cell within a role within a grid then you may be different than if you are within a table.

CS: I am also worried from an implementation perspective

MK: I hate having dups in the spec but my gut reaction is that we may be better to have different roles as it may make implementation less expensive

JC: If you put role of grid on a table then you don't have to put roles on the th and td etc
... one of the things that bugged me about the current spec is that we use html tag name ONLY for IMG. I don't think we want to do that for these. Role of TH and TR are not my first choice especially as we have row etc.
... we would have row and gridrow etc. in 1.0 row is specific to grid and to keep the 1.0 convention would have to change that

MK: you could have a conformance checker for that kind of thing
... could change requried context for row and that could get a conformance checker to find those issues

JC: we would potentially make 1.1 not backwrads compatible

<jcraig> role="gridrow row"

JC: would work with the current 1.0 fallback mechanism

<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say that a minor release should be backwards compatible with the major release it came from

RS: I don't want to break what we have

JC: I think the fallback role would allow it to be backwards compatible
... this would work in 1.0 capable browsers

RS: here is the other thing

<richardschwerdtfeger> role=“gridrow”

RS: would have row=gridrow. On a TR that would default to row too

MK: what happens in the HTML mappings as html doesn't have gridrow or gridcell
... if you have implied roles then would everything have to be explicit inside it. would a TR in a grid context automaTICALLY IMply a grid context

JC: i think the HTML5 a11y mapping document can specify that
... we have somoe prose in the spec which details this scenario for tables and lists
... we won't getg it for free but I think we can make it work

MK: in the spec wouldn't have to worry about this multiple inheritance. but if you are a browser manufacturer you would have to consider the context of cells before mapping to roles. ut now I think about it the a11y apis don't have any distinction bewteen 2 kinds of cells

JC: but they know how to expoise the cells based on the context. Most of the heavy lifting in the browser. depending on properites on cells the AT can know more about it
... in the grand scheme it is trivial to remap based on its context in the rendered tree
... not convinced we need it but if it makes it easier for us then ok. But may be worth doing the spec work if it makes it easier for authors

RS: I think the contextual piece would be a better way of doing this.

<bgaraventa1979> +q

JC: I think we can take JG proposal. col and colgroup are what I am not sure about
... I think it is just used for styling. I think there are perhaps some other contexts. Can probably get away with just table and cell
... would either keep it or keep it as an alias

JG: there are some default algorithms to figure out headers

JC: already have columnheader and rowheader

JG: do you need the new properties

JC: I think colspan and rowspan are necessary in some form

RS: do we need scope?

<bgaraventa1979> only one concern for me regarding having different roles between table roles vs grid roles, in that authors may mix incorrectly. Just something to keep in mind, not sure if it's relevant.

JN: other values for scope colgroup and rowgroup

<bgaraventa1979> -q

JN: not always possible to rework tables sometimes very complex like pivot tables

JC: lets see if we can make it work without scope

JN: would be nice if you could mix and match the headers and scoping mechanism

<jcraig> s/lets see if we can make it work without scope/lets see if we can make it work without scope b/c we have row/colheader roles and we're adding rowspan/colspan attrs/

JC: 2 actions. to make sure the value computation works in the spec
... seems like an oversight\

<jcraig> ACTION: spec value computation for table cells and grid cells (make sure label and labelledby don't trample the cell contents) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Error finding 'spec'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

JC: 2nd one is to add role for table and cell and the attributes for colspan and rowspan

<jcraig> ACTION: add table/cell roles, rowspan/colspan attrs, related taxonomy changes, and suggestions for HTML mapping document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

MK: there is a scenario where aria-label on a column header should trample the contents
... like using abbr on a column header

good point MK

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to spec value computation for table cells and grid cells (make sure label and labelledby don't trample the cell contents) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1402 - Spec value computation for table cells and grid cells (make sure label and labelledby don't trample the cell contents) [on James Craig - due 2014-03-31].

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add table/cell roles, rowspan/colspan attrs, related taxonomy changes, and suggestions for HTML mapping document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1403 - Add table/cell roles, rowspan/colspan attrs, related taxonomy changes, and suggestions for html mapping document [on James Craig - due 2014-03-31].

MK: want screen reader users to be able to hear something brief. So on a column header or row header then aria-label should override in the label of the cell in the table but not when reading the actual row or column header

JC: the abbr attribute on TH

MK: I'm thinking the equivalent would be aria-label on a columnheader

JC: will have to think about that for a while
... if we used aria-label there would seem like strange behaviour to return one thing in one place. I don't think aria-label is the right chocie

mk: we should have a way of doing that with aria markup

<jcraig> <th abbr="Date">Date of Service</th>

<jcraig> <div role="columnheader" aria-label="Date">Date of Service</div>

MK: yes that is what I was proposing

JC: strikes me as strange
... seems like we could do it.

JN: would it be easier to add a new property

JC: thinking it may be
... will write a new action for this one

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to investigate ARIA equivalent of html:th@abbr <th abbr="Date">Date of Service</th> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1404 - Investigate aria equivalent of html:th@abbr <th abbr="date">date of service</th> [on James Craig - due 2014-03-31].

<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to point out that in html5.1 mapping guide, <table> has no mapping.

<clown> http://rawgithub.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html#el-table

JC: this will help with that mapping

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/526

<jcraig> issue-526?

<trackbot> issue-526 -- Allow non-global states and properties to be used without an explicit ARIA role, when the element has an implict ARIA semantic corresponding to an appropriate role - ARIA 1.1 -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/526

ISSUE-526?

<trackbot> ISSUE-526 -- Allow non-global states and properties to be used without an explicit ARIA role, when the element has an implict ARIA semantic corresponding to an appropriate role - ARIA 1.1 -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/526

RS: do we state that yet?

JC: If there is no action item then I probably haevn't done it yet
... I know that the html document allows this
... don't know if referencing something in our spec or not

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig for Issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global roles to apply to host language elements having the correct ARIA semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1405 - For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global roles to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics [on James Craig - due 2014-03-31].

<jcraig> action-1405

<trackbot> action-1405 -- James Craig to For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global roles to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics -- due 2014-03-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1405

<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1405 with issue-526

<trackbot> action-1405 (For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global roles to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics) associated with issue-526.

<jcraig> trackbot close issue-526

<trackbot> Closed issue-526.

<clown> issue-605?

<trackbot> issue-605 -- menuitem role does not allow use of aria-selected -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/605

ISSUE-605?

<trackbot> ISSUE-605 -- menuitem role does not allow use of aria-selected -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/605

MK: confusing selection and focus

JD: can't highlight a button
... if you tab to a button it gets a dashed rectangle. there is a selection thing

MK: underneath it is just focus not selection

JC: selection in main menus changes based on different events
... it is different from regular focus
... It changes the selection state based on me moving over it which is not the same as focus. It is like focus if only using keybaord or hover if only using mouse

MK: i would hate to be seeing everyone having to put aria-selected on menuitems when it is not necessary

RS: could say that selection follows focus if aria-selected isn't sepficied

JC: i'll ook for the wording

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_events_selection

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<jcraig> ACTION: add any necessary language for issue-605 (aria-selected on menuitem and subroles), and reference UAIG #mapping_events_selection [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add any necessary language for issue-605 (aria-selected on menuitem and subroles), and reference UAIG #mapping_events_selection [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1406 - Add any necessary language for issue-605 (aria-selected on menuitem and subroles), and reference uaig #mapping_events_selection [on James Craig - due 2014-03-31].

<jcraig> trackbot associate issue-605 with action-1406

<trackbot> action-1406 (Add any necessary language for issue-605 (aria-selected on menuitem and subroles), and reference uaig #mapping_events_selection) associated with issue-605.

<jcraig> trackbot, close issue-605

<trackbot> Closed issue-605.

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/EST/EDT/
Succeeded: s/IFrames would have potential security risks/cross-domain references could have potential security risks/
Succeeded: s/local/localized role/
Succeeded: s/local descriptions/localized role descriptions/
Succeeded: s/roe/row/
WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/lets see if we can make it work without scope/lets see if we can make it work without scope b/c we have row/colheader roles and we're adding rowspan/colspan attrs/
Found ScribeNick: jamesn
Inferring Scribes: jamesn
Default Present: janina, Bryan_Garaventa, James_Nurthen, joanie, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Michael_Cooper, [Microsoft]
Present: janina Bryan_Garaventa James_Nurthen joanie Jon_Gunderson Rich_Schwerdtfeger Joseph_Scheuhammer Michael_Cooper [Microsoft]
Regrets: Stefan_Schnabel
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0078.html
Found Date: 24 Mar 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/03/24-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: add for issue-526 jcraig modify spec spec.

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.