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<trackbot> Date: 27 February 2014
<scribe> Scribe: Cameron
<scribe> ScribeNick: heycam
krit: I checked two different venues in Leipzig
birtles: takagai-san also found one venue
krit: there are different possibilities
birtles: KDDI have offered to help with the cost of hosting for the meeting room
krit: there are different meeting rooms that we/KDDI can choose from
birtles: some people have already travel assuming those dates we originally decided on
krit: 10th or 9th?
heycam: Monday-Thursday, whatever those dates were
birtles: he would like to keep those dates
heycam: I think it's fine to leave those dates
ed: do we have a name of the venue that KDDI found?
krit: I will pass on my finds to takagi-san, and will update the wiki page when we've decided
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Leipzig_2014
heycam: I can bring teleconference equipment
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to set up Leipzig meeting questionairre [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/27-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3596 - Set up leipzig meeting questionairre [on Cameron McCormack - due 2014-03-06].
ed: I was reading through the
matrix things and found this one, which is defined in SVG
differently from how it's defined in the new DOMMatrix
spec
... was wondering if this was something we might change in our
spec, or if we should just reference DOMMatrix from SVG 2
krit: the idea is that we replace
SVGMatrix with DOMMatrix
... which of course depends on how fast we can progress
DOMMatrix
... there is some pushback form other orgs
... we can update the SVGMatrix for now, to use the definition
we have in DOMMatrix
... the reason why SVGMatrix has the issue is that it is a
division by zero for certain rotations
... I think we should just change it
ed: the y parameter you don't really need to divide by 0
<ed> ISSUE-2457?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2457 -- Why does svgmatrix.rotatefromvector(x,y) throw on y=0? -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2457
heycam: what do we do for (0, 0)?
krit: DOMMatrix says the matrix
is unmodified
... we treat that as angle 0
<ed> the issue link has links to the various spec defintions (and atan)
heycam: I think it's fine to just update SVG 2 with this change and wait to reference DOMMatrix once it's more stable/accepted
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to define SVGMatrix.rotateFromVector(0,0) in SVG 2 not to throw [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/27-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3597 - Define svgmatrix.rotatefromvector(0,0) in svg 2 not to throw [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-03-06].
ThomasSmailus: I've broken out
some things I talked about at the F2F
... still working with some of the graphics engineers here at
Boeing for some more precise examples
... closer to be able to nail down a concrete explanation of
the features
... what I wanted to get from the group was some guidance on
the right process to propose the additions to the spec to make
this happen
... also objections/issues with the use cases, would be glad to
hear those
heycam: can you summarise the features which aren't supported currently?
ThomasSmailus: text height, as an
analog to the textWIdth="" attribute
... this isn't as critical, but it's a nice to have, where more
precise control of text height would be important
... next is non-scaling line widths, dash/line patterns, and
hatch patterns
... where the displayed pattern/stroke appears the same at any
zoom level
... finally the engineering line types/definitions
<ed> (for reference, this is the document discussed: https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/images/d/d8/Features_needed_in_SVG2_for_Technical_Diagrams.pdf)
ThomasSmailus: talking with folks
here, some of the line types they can be done with
stroke-dasharray
... some you can't, since they have some unique
characteristics
... coming up with an enhanced way to define line styles than
implementing an enumerated set of line styles
heycam: I agree with having a general mechanism
Tav: variable stroke width would work for the curved and zig-zag lines
heycam: yes if we allow the "both sides of the stroke go to one side of the stroke middle"
ThomasSmailus: if the various line styles are not defined in a consistent way it makes it difficult to import/export
ed: do you have any insight into which of these new things would be more important? a priority list?
ThomasSmailus: I'm still working
on that
... I'm trying to get some concrete examples from within
Boeing, and to get a feel of which of these are truly
important
... and which happen rarely
... I suspect the patterns and line styles would be most
important
ed: as long as there's some information coming on that, that's fine
krit: for most of these things
it's important to have uniform scaling, horiz/vert axis scaling
the same
... how do we define if that's not the case?
... or if you have skew?
heycam: I think that's an open question for the non-scaling stroke that we already have
ThomasSmailus: my gut feeling is
that for hatch pattern they'd also be non-rotating
... there's a legend those goes with them, and that pattern
should match even after rotation
krit: ok, so no transformation at all
Tav: you can already do that with patterns can't you?
krit: not really, they're in the coordinate space of the element
heycam: you can't say userSpaceOnUse and choose the root coord system
ed: not without ref() transforms or something like that
Tav: so we'd add a third option? to use the root coordinate system?
krit: should we go extreme and allow the user to select the user coordinate system?
heycam: that's one thing I didn't like about ref(svg) from SVG Tiny 1.2, would rather allow selecting the target coord system
ThomasSmailus: any opposition to any of these proposals?
Tav: the only one I might
question is the text, might be hard to do
... the other ones I think we should do
krit: what's the problem with text?
Tav: the text height
... the boxed-cap, boxed-all ...
krit: why is that difficult?
ed: doesn't canvas already have that?
heycam: don't think so?
... I don't think that feature should be too hard
krit: do you feel these should be
implemented in the browser?
... there might be viewers which implement certain features,
and browsers that implement a different set of features
ThomasSmailus: our vision is that
all viewers/browsers would implement the features
... if some don't implement, it's not a feature we want to
use/rely on
krit: we need to specify what
happens when you have a non-uniform scale
... it's not an issue for you, since you're always doing a
uniform scaling with your schematics
ThomasSmailus: not hearing any opposition, so I'll proceed to gather more precise examples, and prioritise them
<shepazu> q+
ThomasSmailus: then based on that come up with some proposed behaviour
Tav: would you have resources to add these to a browser?
ThomasSmailus: no :)
shepazu: I don't want there to be
features in SVG that aren't in the browser
... I think we're all on board with there being one SVG
heycam: yes
krit: yeah
IOW, what happens with <canvas><p> ... </p></canvas>
richardschwerdtfeger: in HTML we
assume fallback content is HTML, of course, and what we're
doing is using that to populate the accessibility APIs that
corresponds to content that is drawn on canvas
... what do we want to do for fallback content under SVG's
<canvas>, and how do we support HTML in there?
... namespaced in the fallback content?
... I don't think it's quite addressed
shepazu: I'd like to understand more about fallback canvas content
richardschwerdtfeger: the
fallback content is used to populate the accessibility tree,
and there's a one-to-one matching between fallback content and
the significant objects in the canvas
... also, in HTML, the fallback content goes into the tab
order
<ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/embedded.html#CanvasElement
richardschwerdtfeger: so the
question I have is, what do we want to do with SVG on
this?
... if we're using <canvas> to render something, we have
to make it accessible, can we put HTML in the fallback
content?
... saw this when I was going through the "intrinsic host
language semantics for SVG elements in ARIA"
heycam: do we require <foreignObject> child of <canvas> to put HTML in there?
krit: sounds like <canvas>
is a bit like <div>, given you can tab right into
it
... we could make <canvas> a grouping element, so
similar
heycam: those children aren't going to be rendered though
krit: which would allow <foreignObject> as well
richardschwerdtfeger: so <canvas><foreignObject><p> ... ?
krit: either that or SVG children directly
heycam: I think that would be the
most logical thing given how we allow HTML in SVG content
currently
... so Dirk if you make it a "grouping element" in terms of the
content model allowed in <canvas>, that makes sense
shepazu: at one point we were
discussing allowing an <html> element, rather than
<foreignObject>
... what's the fallback for canvas in HTML?
... if we have canvas in SVG, we don't want to have one set of
best practices for making accessible fallback in HTML and one
in SVG
... should be the same
... if you have a <canvas> element in HTML, there's going
to be a set of guides on how to make fallback content for
that
... and typically it would be HTML fallback content
... I would expect they'll have a richer toolkit in HTML than
in SVG
krit: we wouldn't disallow it,
but we could still do various fallback things in SVG --
tabindex, aria, etc.
... but you could also choose to use HTML with
<foreignObject>
shepazu: there are going to be
authoring tools that help you make accessible content for
canvas
... I seriously doubt those tools will also do SVG
equivalents
... so while I don't think SVG has the full range of
characteristics -- you can't reproduce all of HTML in SVG just
using aria
krit: we just add one more step, you have to use <foreignObject>, then all the HTML content would be allowed in there
shepazu: if we're importing these
things one piece at a time, I think we should answer the
question soon, what are we doing about HTML
... and foreignObject is not a good solution
... it's an ugly element, and it doesn't allow you to simply
use HTML in there, you have to use namespaces, etc.
... I think to address Rich's question, which is how we handle
accessibility fallback in canvas in SVG, we should answer the
question of how to handle HTML in SVG in general
... so why not have <html> instead of
<foreignObject>
krit: given you still need to add
one more element, does it make it easier for the authoring
tool?
... I am sympathetic to the <html> element
... but I think it makes no difference for this accessibility
case
... I feel this is independent of this issue
... as <html> would just be another element we'd support
everywhere
shepazu: so we don't want to do anything special here
krit: yes
shepazu: I think addressing how
we handle HTML in SVG means we don't have to go into a special
solution for <canvas>
... foreignObject is harder to use, that's my point
... let's not keep avoiding the issue of HTML in SVG
... then issues like this won't come up
krit: so should we agree to allow the SVG content model within <canvas>? and in the future if we add <html> it would be allowed in there?
shepazu: yes
<richardschwerdtfeger> yes
RESOLUTION: We will allow the standard container element content model within SVG <canvas>.
Tav: what happens if you put a <rect> inside a <canvas>?
heycam: it wouldn't be rendered
cabanier: unless the canvas rendering is turned on
shepazu: so there are somethings
you can do in SVG you can't do in canvas. elements that are
clickable. they're in the DOM.
... a canvas element in SVG might have some interesting
possibility for combining SVG/HTML stuff to make the canvas
more accessible
... I could imagine making a rect/circle for hit testing
... and they're rendering that thing in canvas, but the hit
testing is done in the fallback content
... I think we should think more about that
cabanier: I think that is already supported
richardschwerdtfeger: there are
hit regions in canvas, what happens if you're trying to use
both that and the fallback content providing the hit
regions
... in HTML they're DOM elements, but if they have a location,
then there are spatial things to be concerned about as well
shepazu: I think there are interesting possibilities here
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to change the content model of <canvas> in SVG to allow the same child elements as <g>. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/27-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3598 - Change the content model of <canvas> in svg to allow the same child elements as <g>. [on Cameron McCormack - due 2014-03-06].
krit: CSS Masking is back in WD
again
... it has already been for 2 weeks, and would like to ask for
a new LCWD soon
... but would like as much review before that as possible
<krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-masking-1/
krit: if anyone who has time, please look over the current WD
ed: is there a date for comments?
krit: a lot of things
changed
... end of next week, but willing to delay if there are
requests for longer view period
trackbot, end telcon
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/ThomasSmailus/krit/ Succeeded: s/ed: I agree// Succeeded: s/next week/end of next week/ Found Scribe: Cameron Found ScribeNick: heycam Default Present: Thomas_Smailus, krit, [IPcaller], ed, stakagi, birtles, heycam, Tav, nikos, Doug_Schepers, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, cabanier Present: Thomas_Smailus krit [IPcaller] ed stakagi birtles heycam Tav nikos Doug_Schepers Rich_Schwerdtfeger cabanier Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Feb/0091.html Found Date: 27 Feb 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/02/27-svg-minutes.html People with action items: cameron erik[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]