<trackbot> Date: 13 January 2014

I can scribe today?

<lizadaly> I hear plenty of beeping

<dauwhe> Is the conference line actually working? I've heard no human voices.

<lizadaly> I just say 'hello' but heard nothing back

<lizadaly> so I guess that's a 'no'

<dauwhe> I've heard nothing.

Other than beeps

<ivan> heh neither do I

<mgylling> /me its a tibetan-style concall this week

<Luc> neither do i

<lizadaly> I assume Markus is just bored

<ivan> :-)

<lizadaly> Zakim has a case of the Mondays

<mgylling> ivan, should we restart or sth?

<lizadaly> Hear that!

<Bill_Kasdorf> I can hear now

<lizadaly> How do I tell it which line I'm on?

<Bill_Kasdorf> I mute and unmute locally. Since I can hear, do I need to unmute on Zakim?

<scribe> scribe: azaroth

<Liza> BOOM

<Bill_Kasdorf> How?

<Bill_Kasdorf> 60#

Markus: As we decided last week, another week on LatinReq focus. We ended the last call thinking we scratched the surface, so will continue another week
... before we do that we need to approve previous meetings minutes
... Approved

Ivan: An admin thing before we start, I just want to warn you that we had a security breach at W3C.
... at some point you may be asked to change your password.
... When you try to log in to a member restricted area, you'll be asked to change. We're testing the system now with the team.

fjh: When we see that, we should just go ahead and change it?

Ivan: Yes, you can postpone for two weeks, but will need to do it at some point

Markus: Dave, can you give a quick recap of what we covered last week to get back into the mode?

dauwhe: I droned on about dropcaps for a while, some low hanging fruit for CSS. talked about some issues people are having in ebook systems, such as hyphenation and justification
... We talked about image and caption sizing, quite a bit about various efforts to bring typographic sophistication to the web.
... On Sunday I updated latinreq document, alan sent a nice intro text on grids. Added a section about justification and hyphenation, as a concern for a lot of us.
... so I thought today we could talk about that this week, and about grids and underlying issues they may solve
... Just sent the list a detailed email about table alignment.
... Anything I forgot to mention?

Markus: We had email thread from last week where ben and luke posted some issues. Felt to me like if we cover table alignment and so on today, that's a good amount
... tell us about H. and Justi~n and where we should end up?

<astearns> dauwhe: could you post latinreq URL? The task force wiki page has the wrong link.

Dave: A couple of things. I wonder if we're at the point where we or some other group need to be detailed about what we want to see. What does it mean for a book reading system to do a good job with the text

<dauwhe> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html

<tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

Dave: so one possibility on Hypenation... a lot depends on dictionaries. Had experience with good and bad ones. Is it possible to say which is good or not so good with various languages?
... could contribute best practices on how to build it into rendering engine

Bill_Kasdorf: In a lot of disciplines there are specialized dictionaries needed, due to terminology

<liam> +1

Bill_Kasdorf: some way to accommodate this is important, esp for medical.

Dave: At individual title level, exception dict is important
... per file or copy, the dictionary is a critical piece to supply hyphenation exceptions

Markus: To understand, the document provider should declare which dict to use?

Bill: In addition to the built in, should use Steadman's medical dictionary as authority for hypen~n
... sometimes a publisher will have an individual list of words it knows will be problematic in a title and provide list of dozen such terms

Markus: So not in a dictionary, local to the particular title

Dave: various systems have ways to enter new terms to override

Markus: Sounds like 2 clear requirements to formulate

Tzviuya: Same as BIl, but as we get into more advanced fields, need expanded on. Medicine is broad, but grad level chemistry things get complicated

<Zakim> Liam, you wanted to note it may vary within a document

Liam: Live in a multilingual web, and multidiscipline. Might need multiple dictionaries for a single document
... saw this with print publications in 80s

Markus: Any effort in W3C in this area so far?

Liam: Nothing beyond what we did in XSL FO.

Dave: Is there a standard for even describing hypen~n like TeX style that aren't easy to understand

Liam: Not aware of any
... eg words in German that change spelling when you hypenate them
... might be in OpenOffice

Luc: Proper way to solve this is perhaps to rely on hypen~n inside the text
... in a limited environment could be possible to prepare text with the special words / preferred hypenation

<astearns> so far, all CSS says about hyphenation dictionaries is that the user agent must choose a language appropriate resource

Luc: question may be to find a good composition engine that takes into account the preferred places in the words
... as in EPUB with fixed content document, could be prepared in advance
... so not to rely on external dictionaries

<Zakim> Liam, you wanted to note trend is away from inline resources and towards separate resources; also, browsers today *do* do hyphenation, just don't support per-page or per-site

<astearns> +1 to Liam's point

Liam: Trend is away from inline and towards external, like CSS and fonts
... when people look at 2 or more pages, is better
... but don't support hyphenation. Search in page stops working etc.
... More that needs to be specified

Bill: Almost always a dict is used in tandem with an algorithm as it doesn't provide all possible words
... if present in dict it takes precedence

<Luc> +1

Dave: Using dict in a very broad sense

<astearns> dauwhe: you can encode prioritization in some systems (two dischys for a better break, for example)

Bill: In all languages many examples of limitations where you can't do it without context, eg pres/ent and pre/sent

Dave: Situation out there in the wild is bad, we want to improve it, but not going to get perfection

Bill: Yes, not attainable

Dave: There's a lot we can do in this area for requirements
... perhaps moving on to justification

Luc: Main question remains, if dictionaries used for exceptions, on algorithms used in OWP to calculate line length and breaking
... or declare them?
... Don't know which should be used but would like to know which are available? Does each browser have their own?

<liam> [document providers will be able to say they prefer a particular algorithm from a well-known list; I hope to see at least two supported (first-fit as now, and n-line) ]

Dave: It becomes a bit intertwined with justification at that point to decide

<Zakim> astearns, you wanted to mention ladders

<azaroth_> Markus: Okay, moving on...

<azaroth_> Dave: Should we talk about tables a bit?

<azaroth_> ... I think this a good and interesting topic

<ivan> mail sent just now

<azaroth_> ... Ben has done a tremendous amount of research into automated rendering for HE texts

<azaroth_> Ben: I sent a mail to the list. Higher level -- line on character support, but can be on any character often decimals

<azaroth_> Second is support for flush left center. Not sure there's a standard term.

<azaroth_> ... FLC is a common variation on FL and FC, not supported in things even like InDesign

<azaroth_> Ivan: What does it do?

<azaroth_> Ben: What's the difference? FLC says look at the column, find the longest line in the entries, center that line, and then take all the other lines and flush left on that longest, centered line

<Bill_Kasdorf> That is used in poetry as well as tables

<azaroth_> Markus: Flush meaning align the left most character with the base

<azaroth_> Ben: Yup, align left

<azaroth_> Bill: Also done in poetry

<azaroth_> Ben: Third is preventing line wrap if you have cells aligning on a character or word

<mgylling> important point re poetry, means this is not table-specific alignment behavior

<azaroth_> ... Fourth, table widths. Lots of notes about requirements. Ask group if I should document?

<azaroth_> ... idea is that tables don't size to some arbitrary dimension, set by fixed width

<azaroth_> ... idea partially aesthetics and relationships between tables

<azaroth_> ... 4 tables that showed similar data and should be considered together

<azaroth_> ... if rendered at diff sizes may be hard to see they're related

Dave: can't preset the width, so have to be able to set table to some choice of width that is provided
... those are the high level points so far
... Alan? you replied on list, can you read it back to discuss?

Alan: You had steps for aligning on a character eg decimal. didn't seem right
... centering portion can't be part of the algorithm sometimes

Ben: Circumstance?

Alan: Gave some sample data in reply.
... Can result in case where nothing is centred and that's appropriate

Ben: Yes, true.

\me notes scribe isn't understanding discussion

Alan: Focus more on discussion and less on an algorithm. Could be a faster algorithm. Just talk about requirements not necessarily steps

Ben: Fair enough. I think in this case I think we want to stay away from implementation details
... trying to give examples that there's additional details to consider
... agree that when more digits on one side in one cell, and more on the other side in another cell, but no individual cell would be centered

Markus: Shall we go through Q?

Tzviya: Snapping to width is relevant, often related to trim size. Data relevant to a section needs to be presented in the same way.
... also spans and straddles -- can be difficult to achive with CSS, esp with centre the content within a span. In HE content often see vertical text, not sure if we want to mention in high level reqs but will come up

Ben: Agreed

<Bill_Kasdorf> Do you mean vertical text or rotated text?

<astearns> I think we should definitely mention Latin vertical text requirements

Liza: To what extent do we want to consider tables in mobile devices where there's no room

<tzviya> +100

Liza: problem with basic html in reading systems

+100 from me too

scribe: Do we want to dictate what the behaviour should be when the reading system can't fill the space

Markus: Something that Tzviya has talked about as well. The most basic things not working. A separate cluster of requirements?

Dave: First thought is it sounds like a separate cluster of fallbacks for tables in limited screen real estate, how tables should degrade. Haven;t thought about it a lot
... expect other people have spent more time

Markus: What task force? Tzviya, under adaptive?

Tzviya: I mentioned it. If we talk about tables in this document, we should mention it. That it won't render everywhere. Also Bill was considering -- not everything can function as a table in mobile
... not sure a fallback would be the way we define it

Dave: Just using to mean some simplified arrangement

Liza: Not to increase the scope, but need a position on it as a real issue

Markus: Agreed, been up before and we need to cover it

Dave: latinreq might be the place to describe the high end use case, what we want to do with tables, but not the place to work on more restrictive circumstances

Markus: Natural home? Tzviya?

Tzviya: Still trying to figure out what my area is :)
... do have a use case, so can bring it up. Sure.

Bill: Just to point out that there's an obvious behaviour that compensates -- the ability to hide rows or columns. Typically not reading everything, just looking something up
... don't care about columns 2-4 to look up something in column 5
... so if you can hide them, you can see it on your phone

Tzviya: Don't necessarily agree. Sometimes need everything to do a comparison.

Bill: If it's a table, then given the ability to look at portions is useful. Not a complete solution

Markus: Where were we with alignment in columns

Ben: I'll clean up the language to correct hte language. Screenshots ... how to provide?

Dave: I can put them in the doc if you email them to me
... next comment was can we have some illustrations

Markus: Sounds like we had unanimous agreement was requirements, not to mandate algorithms

Dave: Some sort of tricky example to align on character, describing these kind of arrangements

<Zakim> astearns, you wanted to comment on algorithms

Dave: in scope for this doc

Alan: Algorithm the computer has to go through seems out of scope. Manual algorithm for print production, those steps are very useful to describe

Dave: Yes, this is how we think about it, the concepts we apply to get the desired end result. Agree those are good

Markus: Dave, you also mentioned grids as a topic

<dauwhe> http://alistapart.com

Dave: Thanks to Alan for the text. Provided a lovely example of the problem
... Something I mentioned last week, the idea of the grid seems important, also trying to get at the underlying principles. Alignment goals that grids implement
... trying to get to a more fundamental aspect of the problem. Looking at the example there, what is supposed to align with what, that would make it look less horrible
... at bottom, there's a section more from alistapart, 3 articles with varying structures so nothing aligns
... main text isn't on the same grid, varying numbers of lines. all over the place

Alan: One of the things I'm planning to do is put some screenshots together to show before and after, what controls you'd need to achieve the after effect
... been considering for grids are theoretical, only work on the tools. for ppl using baseline grids, they have some manual steps, would be good to get feedback for requirements

Dave: Love to see some examples of grids in use. Can point out that grid enables this to work. Underlying design principles to codify
... what grids need to achieve

Bill: Makes me think of related use case- ability to set a vertical marker that other things are aligned with
... not a pre existing grid, just an alignment point. On the list?

Dave: Applies to lots of things. Side by side text, side note.

Bill: translations for example

Dave: Yeah
... way to go is if you have examples, then send them along

Bill: Yes not a grid, just made me think of it

Dave: Larger issue of alignment. How does this object relate to that object
... whole subject has lots of diff manifestations. As many examples as possible to let us come up with what we need to do

Markus: Bill, I thought you were going to talk about alignment in 2 page spread. points sometimes cross page boundaries.

Bill: That's true. More universal than that. DOn't want people to focus on page based rendering, relevant in reflowable
... good question though, would the same mechanism work for both use cases

<Luc> +1

Dave: Sent the list another big question on equation alignment on = signs
... even though unrelated html structure

<liam> +1 alignment

Dave: one of the big, fundamental issues when laying out pages

Markus: Need to decide what to do next week
... where do you see yourself going in terms of grids?

Dave: Would like to get illustrations, examples in here. See where they go.
... can start writing up more on hyphenation. WOuld like to start collecting egs and screenshots
... maybe go into a phase where actively working on a few parts with lots of input from people with what trying to achieve

Markus: Alan, does that work for you?

Alan: Certainly

Markus: Great. For next week, we need another task force, unless you disagree Dave?

Dave: I need a break :)

Markus: Tzviya, shall we move to your group?

Tzviya: Don't have a lot pulled together, but could review what we have now

Markus: Still a bit fuzzy where the edges are, need to clarify where to go.
... AOB?

Dave: Several of us will be at digital book world this week

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Found Date: 13 Jan 2014
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