Meeting Record

Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

Minutes of 20 June 2007

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0020

Seen

Alessio Cartocci, Mark Birbeck, Richard Schwerdtfeger, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Susan Borgrink, Tina Holmboe, Toshihiko Yamakami, Unknown Dialer, Unknown yamx

Regrets

Susan Borgrink, Alessio Cartocci

Chair

Steven Pemberton

Scribe

Steven Pemberton

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Chair
Roadmap
Wiki/Blog
Vote on last call for Role and Access
Name and namespace
URL is overspecified

There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.

It may be helpful to

13:50:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-irc ←

13:50:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

13:50:47 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml ←

13:50:47 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes ←

13:51:01 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

13:51:33 <Steven> Regrets: Susan, Alessio

13:51:55 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0020

13:52:04 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0020

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0020 ←

13:52:52 <Steven> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0019.html Previous

Steven Pemberton: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0019.html Previous ←

13:59:47 <Steven> zakim, call steven-617

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: zakim, call steven-617 ←

13:59:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

13:59:49 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started ←

13:59:50 <Zakim> +Dialer

Zakim IRC Bot: +Dialer ←

13:59:51 <Zakim> -Dialer

Scribe problem: the name 'Dialer' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Dialer ←

13:59:55 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:00:29 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

14:00:47 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

14:02:25 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←

14:02:28 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, i am ? ←

14:02:29 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←

14:03:31 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←

14:03:44 <yamx> this is yam

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: this is yam ←

14:04:05 <yamx> zakim, i am ??P17

Unknown yamx: zakim, i am ??P17 ←

14:04:05 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

14:04:10 <Steven> zakim, ??P17 is yamx

Steven Pemberton: zakim, ??P17 is yamx ←

14:04:10 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as yamx, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P17 as yamx, Steven ←

14:06:43 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

14:06:56 <Steven> Topic: Chair

1. Chair

14:07:07 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18 ←

14:08:20 <Steven> zakim, ??P18 is Rich

zakim, ??P18 is Rich ←

14:08:20 <Zakim> +Rich; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Rich; got it ←

14:08:32 <Steven> Steven: Roland Merrick of IBM will be joining me as co-chair

Steven Pemberton: Roland Merrick of IBM will be joining me as co-chair ←

14:09:15 <Steven> Topic: Roadmap

2. Roadmap

14:10:55 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/ ←

14:11:38 <Steven> Here is the latest one: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XHTML2-WG-charter

Here is the latest one: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XHTML2-WG-charter ←

14:16:25 <Steven> Shane: There is a mismatch between the documents section and the milestones

Shane McCarron: There is a mismatch between the documents section and the milestones ←

14:16:33 <Steven> Steven: All the more reason to update the roadmap document

Steven Pemberton: All the more reason to update the roadmap document ←

14:17:05 <Steven> Mark: It looks like the documents section is OK, only the milestones are missing some

Mark Birbeck: It looks like the documents section is OK, only the milestones are missing some ←

14:17:13 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to update the roadmap document

ACTION: Steven to update the roadmap document ←

14:17:30 <Steven> Topic: Wiki/Blog

3. Wiki/Blog

14:20:42 <Steven> Steven: DO we think this is a good idea?

Steven Pemberton: Do we think this is a good idea? ←

14:20:47 <Steven> ... example: http://www.w3.org/International/

... example: http://www.w3.org/International/ ←

14:21:23 <Steven> Shane: It's a good idea

Shane McCarron: It's a good idea ←

14:21:28 <Steven> s/DO/Do/

14:21:50 <Steven> ACTION: Steven investigate starting a blog and wiki

ACTION: Steven investigate starting a blog and wiki ←

14:22:36 <Steven> Topic: Vote on last call for Role and Access

4. Vote on last call for Role and Access

14:23:03 <Steven> Steven: I saw this as an action from last week

Steven Pemberton: I saw this as an action from last week ←

14:23:29 <Steven> Shane: The final version of role is not ready, sorry

Shane McCarron: The final version of role is not ready, sorry ←

14:24:05 <Steven> Tina: I had an action item to review the role document

Tina Holmboe: I had an action item to review the role document ←

14:25:56 <Steven> ... I'm not convinced wee need it

... I'm not convinced wee need it ←

14:26:23 <Steven> ... I don't like representing semantics in attributes rather than elements

... I don't like representing semantics in attributes rather than elements ←

14:26:44 <Steven> Steven: But it offeres extensibility in semantics without having to constantly revise the language

Steven Pemberton: But it offers extensibility in semantics without having to constantly revise the language ←

14:26:51 <Steven> s/offeres/offers/

14:29:51 <Steven> Tina: I'm worried that people will create semantics with <div role=

Tina Holmboe: I'm worried that people will create semantics with <div role= ←

14:30:13 <Steven> Steven: Agreed we have to talk about best practices

Steven Pemberton: Agreed we have to talk about best practices ←

14:30:38 <Steven> Rich: You can't stop people doing the wrong thing; at least we now have a way to extract the real semantics, rather than having to guess

Richard Schwerdtfeger: You can't stop people doing the wrong thing; at least we now have a way to extract the real semantics, rather than having to guess ←

14:32:34 <Steven> Steven: The nice thing that this offers is a link to the semantic web way of defining semantics

Steven Pemberton: The nice thing that this offers is a link to the semantic web way of defining semantics ←

14:33:40 <Steven> Tina: For people who don't understand h1, rdf doesn't give them any value

Tina Holmboe: For people who don't understand h1, rdf doesn't give them any value ←

14:33:51 <Steven> Mark: I think you are missing the point

Mark Birbeck: I think you are missing the point ←

14:34:03 <Steven> .... you don't have to understand rdf

.... you don't have to understand rdf ←

14:34:11 <Steven> ... there are values you can use

... there are values you can use ←

14:34:40 <Steven> ... so we have the best of both worlds: a predefined list, and hooks into rdf which makes it extensible for the future

... so we have the best of both worlds: a predefined list, and hooks into rdf which makes it extensible for the future ←

14:35:06 <Steven> Tina: I'm worried that people will ad semantics with role

Tina Holmboe: I'm worried that people will ad semantics with role ←

14:36:43 <Steven> ... if someone makes up their own semantics, there is no way to get out the real meaning

... if someone makes up their own semantics, there is no way to get out the real meaning ←

14:37:21 <Steven> Steven: Yes there is! That's the nice thing about semweb tools: you can define the relationship between different semantics ('ontologies')

Steven Pemberton: Yes there is! That's the nice thing about semweb tools: you can define the relationship between different semantics ('ontologies') ←

14:38:26 <Steven> Rich: The nice thing about this apporach is that you don't need 'skip to' links for instance, and the browser still offers a shortcut to the main content

Richard Schwerdtfeger: The nice thing about this apporach is that you don't need 'skip to' links for instance, and the browser still offers a shortcut to the main content ←

14:40:45 <Steven> Steven: Are you going to do a review, or was this it Tina?

Steven Pemberton: Are you going to do a review, or was this it Tina? ←

14:40:58 <Steven> Tina: THe document is fine, I'm just worried about the principle.

Tina Holmboe: THe document is fine, I'm just worried about the principle. ←

14:41:51 <Steven> Topic: Name and namespace

5. Name and namespace

14:41:54 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

14:42:16 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0018.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0018.html ←

14:43:57 <Steven> Shane: You know my opinion; they should  not calll it XHTML unless they use modularization

Shane McCarron: You know my opinion; they should not calll it XHTML unless they use modularization ←

14:44:36 <Steven> Tina: There are two markup languages, HTML and XHTML. I'm not sure that HTLM5 is even HTML, but that is a different discussion

Tina Holmboe: There are two markup languages, HTML and XHTML. I'm not sure that HTLM5 is even HTML, but that is a different discussion ←

14:47:30 <Steven> Rich: I'm worried about the confusion. I have no problems with HTML5/xml or so

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I'm worried about the confusion. I have no problems with HTML5/xml or so ←

14:47:43 <Steven> ... but not XHTML5

... but not XHTML5 ←

14:48:07 <Steven> Mark: I don't see why they need two names. They have HTML5, with two serializations. No need for two names

Mark Birbeck: I don't see why they need two names. They have HTML5, with two serializations. No need for two names ←

14:48:17 <Steven> Tina: I agree with the problem of confusion

Tina Holmboe: I agree with the problem of confusion ←

14:48:30 <Steven> ... I've already seen it amongst developers.

... I've already seen it amongst developers. ←

14:49:23 <Steven> Rich: ALl existing XHTMLs have been modular, and HTML5 is not. Its's a mess.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: ALl existing XHTMLs have been modular, and HTML5 is not. Its's a mess. ←

14:50:00 <Steven> S/ALl/All

S/ALl/All ←

14:50:19 <Steven> Yam: It doesn't make any sense for them to produce something called XHTML5

Toshihiko Yamakami: It doesn't make any sense for them to produce something called XHTML5 ←

14:51:17 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0017.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0017.html ←

14:53:11 <Steven> Steven: And now the namespace

Steven Pemberton: And now the namespace ←

14:53:34 <Steven> ... we were criticised in the past for having a different namespace, and therefore we changed it back (correctly in my view)

... we were criticised in the past for having a different namespace, and therefore we changed it back (correctly in my view) ←

14:53:43 <ShaneM>  I concur.

Shane McCarron: I concur. ←

14:53:50 <Steven> Rich: I think HTML5 is not backwards compatible

Richard Schwerdtfeger: I think HTML5 is not backwards compatible ←

14:54:01 <Steven> Tina: Agreed, especially with elements changing meaning

Tina Holmboe: Agreed, especially with elements changing meaning ←

14:55:43 <Steven> Steven: I believe that XHTML2 is more backwards compatible than HTML5

Steven Pemberton: I believe that XHTML2 is more backwards compatible than HTML5 ←

14:56:16 <Steven> Rich: If the browser manufacturers are going to have to make lal these changes for au=dio, video, canvas and so on, what''s the problem with a new namespace?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: If the browser manufacturers are going to have to make lal these changes for au=dio, video, canvas and so on, what''s the problem with a new namespace? ←

14:56:22 <Steven> Steven: Good point

Steven Pemberton: Good point ←

14:56:58 <Steven> Topic: URL is overspecified

6. URL is overspecified

15:00:02 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

15:00:03 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

15:00:04 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

15:00:06 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

15:01:09 <Steven> StevenL If I understand the point of view being expressed, just because URLs go over the wire in ascii, there is no reason to demand the URL in the XHTML source to be ascii; we can allow the international form of domain names etc in the source, and require the browser to udo the conversion to ascii

Steven Pemberton: If I understand the point of view being expressed, just because URLs go over the wire in ascii, there is no reason to demand the URL in the XHTML source to be ascii; we can allow the international form of domain names etc in the source, and require the browser to udo the conversion to ascii ←

15:01:13 <Steven> Yam: Quite agree

Toshihiko Yamakami: Quite agree ←

15:01:18 <Steven> Mark: Sounds like a good idea

Mark Birbeck: Sounds like a good idea ←

15:01:37 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to get advice from I18N group about international form of URIs

ACTION: Steven to get advice from I18N group about international form of URIs ←

15:01:50 <Steven> s/StevenL/Steven:/

15:02:00 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here? ←

15:02:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Rich ←

15:02:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markbirbeck, krijnh

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markbirbeck, krijnh ←

15:02:08 <Steven> zakim, drop rich

zakim, drop rich ←

15:02:14 <Zakim> Rich is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Rich is being disconnected ←

15:02:16 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended ←

15:02:20 <Zakim> Attendees were Dialer, Steven, ShaneM, Tina, markbirbeck, yamx, Rich

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Dialer, Steven, ShaneM, Tina, markbirbeck, yamx, Rich ←

15:02:45 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:02:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:03:24 <Steven> Chair: Steven

15:06:13 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:06:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

Formatted by CommonScribe