edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 20 November 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Fabien Gandon, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Zhe Wu
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Markus Lanthaler
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. accept minutes of last week's telecon link
Topics
16:00:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-rdf-wg-irc

16:00:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:00:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

16:00:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

16:00:39 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:00:39 <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2013
16:02:04 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394

16:02:04 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:02:08 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

16:02:22 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see ericP, David_Wood, [IPcaller], Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ericP, David_Wood, [IPcaller], Guus

16:02:29 <AndyS> zakim,ipCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim,ipCaller is me

16:02:29 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:02:38 <Guus> chair: Guus
16:02:41 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

16:02:41 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

16:02:43 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

16:02:47 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

16:02:51 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P6

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P6

16:02:51 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

16:02:56 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

16:02:59 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

16:03:32 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

16:03:34 <markus> zakim, ??P12 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P12 is me

16:03:34 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

16:03:35 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:04:28 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:05:18 <Zakim> +FabGandon

Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon

16:05:33 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

16:05:46 <AZ> Zakim, ??P14 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P14 is me

16:05:47 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:06:04 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:06:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see ericP, David_Wood, AndyS, Guus, Ivan (muted), gkellogg, markus, Sandro, PatH, FabGandon, AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ericP, David_Wood, AndyS, Guus, Ivan (muted), gkellogg, markus, Sandro, PatH, FabGandon, AZ

16:06:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Guus, markus, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, AndyS, FabGandon, ivan, TallTed, manu, Arnaud, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, Guus, markus, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, AndyS, FabGandon, ivan, TallTed, manu, Arnaud, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, sandro, ericP

16:07:30 <markus> scribe: markus

(Scribe set to Markus Lanthaler)

16:07:43 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:07:54 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:07:58 <markus> guus: propose to accept the minutes of last week's telecon

Guus Schreiber: propose to accept the minutes of last week's telecon

16:08:09 <markus> RESOLVED: accept minutes of last week's telecon

RESOLVED: accept minutes of last week's telecon

16:08:27 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

16:08:42 <markus> guus: there are 3 actions...

Guus Schreiber: there are 3 actions...

16:08:55 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

16:09:26 <markus> ... all three actions are now done

... all three actions are now done

16:09:33 <markus> ... objections?

... objections?

16:10:12 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:10:14 <markus> ... we'll put ACTION-98 on the agenda next week

... we'll put ACTION-98 on the agenda next week

16:10:21 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:10:21 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

16:10:23 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:10:23 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

16:10:49 <markus> davidwood: I hope to have something for the next telecon regarding ACTION-193

David Wood: I hope to have something for the next telecon regarding ACTION-193

16:11:31 <markus> guus: closing ACTION-268 (actions are for concrete actions)

Guus Schreiber: closing ACTION-268 (actions are for concrete actions)

16:13:17 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

16:14:45 <PatH> I should be able to attend (from the USA)

Patrick Hayes: I should be able to attend (from the USA)

16:15:07 <markus> guus: antoine, I suggest you include Sandro's boxed datasets to section 4 to your note

Guus Schreiber: antoine, I suggest you include Sandro's boxed datasets to section 4 to your note

16:15:09 <AZ> yes, please send the link

Antoine Zimmermann: yes, please send the link

16:15:25 <markus> ... section 3 looks very complete but section 4 needs more work

... section 3 looks very complete but section 4 needs more work

16:15:48 <markus> TOPIC: CR implementations

1. CR implementations

16:16:53 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

16:16:54 <markus> gkellogg: nothing new but the traffic on the mailing list suggests that people are working on implementations

Gregg Kellogg: nothing new but the traffic on the mailing list suggests that people are working on implementations

16:17:02 <pchampin> zakim, ??P25 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P25 is me

16:17:02 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

16:17:41 <markus> ... we are also waiting for a couple of tests from, e.g., Peter Ansell

... we are also waiting for a couple of tests from, e.g., Peter Ansell

16:18:16 <markus> ... the reports haven't been updated yet

... the reports haven't been updated yet

16:18:38 <markus> ... they don't contain the new tests

... they don't contain the new tests

16:19:00 <markus> ... we have no implementations which pass the new tests yet

... we have no implementations which pass the new tests yet

16:19:23 <markus> ... will re-generate the reports as soon as andy and I updated our implementations

... will re-generate the reports as soon as andy and I updated our implementations

16:19:44 <markus> guus: ok.. the only problem I see is the semantics test suite

Guus Schreiber: ok.. the only problem I see is the semantics test suite

16:19:55 <markus> ... peter approached a number of people

... peter approached a number of people

16:20:09 <markus> ... we could have a timing problem here.. we need to get this done till middle of december

... we could have a timing problem here.. we need to get this done till middle of december

16:20:52 <markus> ... someone willing or planning to do an implementation for the semantics tests?

... someone willing or planning to do an implementation for the semantics tests?

16:22:54 <markus> ... if we make no progress till next week we may need to do some emergency actions, i.e., work ourselves on implementations

... if we make no progress till next week we may need to do some emergency actions, i.e., work ourselves on implementations

16:23:27 <markus> TOPIC: CR comments

2. CR comments

16:23:40 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:24:06 <markus> ericP: it's difficult to get reponses from commenters

Eric Prud'hommeaux: it's difficult to get reponses from commenters

16:25:09 <AndyS> Also reply re ISSUE-172

Andy Seaborne: Also reply re ISSUE-172

16:25:52 <PatH> +1 to not changing anything now.

Patrick Hayes: +1 to not changing anything now.

16:29:04 <markus> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#dfn-rdf-term

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#dfn-rdf-term

16:30:49 <AZ> Henry Story has just sent RESOLVED

Antoine Zimmermann: Henry Story has just sent RESOLVED

16:32:51 <AndyS> TriG / Bare collections http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0080.html

Andy Seaborne: TriG / Bare collections http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0080.html

16:33:20 <markus> ACTION for davidwood to describe how SPARQL datasets relate to RDF datasets in RDF Concepts

ACTION for davidwood to describe how SPARQL datasets relate to RDF datasets in RDF Concepts

16:33:20 <trackbot> Error finding 'for'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'for'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

16:33:25 <markus> ACTION on davidwood to describe how SPARQL datasets relate to RDF datasets in RDF Concepts

ACTION on davidwood to describe how SPARQL datasets relate to RDF datasets in RDF Concepts

16:33:25 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

16:33:32 <markus> ACTION davidwood to describe how SPARQL datasets relate to RDF datasets in RDF Concepts

ACTION davidwood to describe how SPARQL datasets relate to RDF datasets in RDF Concepts

16:33:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-326 - Describe how sparql datasets relate to rdf datasets in rdf concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-11-27].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-326 - Describe how sparql datasets relate to rdf datasets in rdf concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-11-27].

16:34:25 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#c3 marked resolved. now to pester David Robillard...

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#c3 marked resolved. now to pester David Robillard...

16:39:04 <markus> gregg: I think TriG compatiblity with N3 is more on the syntactic level not semantic

Gregg Kellogg: I think TriG compatiblity with N3 is more on the syntactic level not semantic

16:39:17 <markus> andys: not sure.. it talks about provenance etc.

Andy Seaborne: not sure.. it talks about provenance etc.

16:39:19 <PatH> Peter, do you have any news of progress on semantics text suite implementations?? We were discussing this earlier.

Patrick Hayes: Peter, do you have any news of progress on semantics text suite implementations?? We were discussing this earlier.

16:39:26 <Guus> this is not a WG requirement, so let's not spend too much time on it

Guus Schreiber: this is not a WG requirement, so let's not spend too much time on it

16:39:42 <PatH> text/test

Patrick Hayes: text/test

16:39:47 <markus> gregg: a solution would be to disallow bare graphs

Gregg Kellogg: a solution would be to disallow bare graphs

16:40:16 <PatH> graph modesty should be accepted by all civilized people.

Patrick Hayes: graph modesty should be accepted by all civilized people.

16:40:20 <markus> guus: how much time do we wanna spend on this? it's not a WG requirement

Guus Schreiber: how much time do we wanna spend on this? it's not a WG requirement

16:40:37 <markus> andys: I propose we do no nothing.. it's too late

Andy Seaborne: I propose we do no nothing.. it's too late

16:41:01 <markus> sandro: we are not doing N3 so compatibility to Turtle is most important

Sandro Hawke: we are not doing N3 so compatibility to Turtle is most important

16:41:14 <markus> ... we are moving towards SPARQL-style

... we are moving towards SPARQL-style

16:41:32 <markus> ... at some point we should deprecate the other forms

... at some point we should deprecate the other forms

16:41:36 <PatH> bare graphs and now content sniffing? This is getting out of hand.

Patrick Hayes: bare graphs and now content sniffing? This is getting out of hand.

16:42:02 <pfps> I haven't heard back from anyone on entailment implementations, except for initial ACKs.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I haven't heard back from anyone on entailment implementations, except for initial ACKs.

16:42:09 <markus> gregg: a problem in practice is that sometimes it becomes very difficult to tell what format a file is in by just looking at its content

Gregg Kellogg: a problem in practice is that sometimes it becomes very difficult to tell what format a file is in by just looking at its content

16:42:10 <PatH> OK tnx.

Patrick Hayes: OK tnx.

16:44:30 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0090.html

Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0090.html

16:44:31 <markus> guus: TriG compatibility with N-Quads

Guus Schreiber: TriG compatibility with N-Quads

16:44:55 <markus> andys: there's a proposed reply here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0090.html

Andy Seaborne: there's a proposed reply here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0090.html

16:45:18 <markus> ... not really what the commenter asked for but should resolve the issue

... not really what the commenter asked for but should resolve the issue

16:45:37 <PatH> Is there a less squirrely change to the grammar that would get the quads he wants?

Patrick Hayes: Is there a less squirrely change to the grammar that would get the quads he wants?

16:46:03 <markus> ... TriG and Turtle are "human-readable" formats.. N-Quads/N-Triples are intended for data dumps

... TriG and Turtle are "human-readable" formats.. N-Quads/N-Triples are intended for data dumps

16:46:11 <markus> guus: I can live with this proposed response

Guus Schreiber: I can live with this proposed response

16:46:51 <markus> gkellogg: I agree with andy

Gregg Kellogg: I agree with andy

16:47:25 <markus> path: I agree to but think we talk about "human readable" etc. in the response

Patrick Hayes: I agree but think we talk about "human readable" etc. in the response

16:47:39 <markus> s/agree to but/agree but/
16:48:02 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0094.html

Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0094.html

16:48:49 <markus> andys: "Escaped characters in N-Triples" indirectly affects all syntaxes

Andy Seaborne: "Escaped characters in N-Triples" indirectly affects all syntaxes

16:49:08 <markus> ... I'm wondering if the change was intentional or if it was an editorial mistake

... I'm wondering if the change was intentional or if it was an editorial mistake

16:49:17 <markus> ... if we don't know.. we have to make a decision

... if we don't know.. we have to make a decision

16:50:18 <markus> ... we can be liberal.. counterargument: it introduces more ways to write the same thing

... we can be liberal.. counterargument: it introduces more ways to write the same thing

16:53:39 <markus> guus: we should be consistent across our syntaxes and we shouldn't introduce major design changes

Guus Schreiber: we should be consistent across our syntaxes and we shouldn't introduce major design changes

16:53:47 <markus> ... I'll go with the majority

... I'll go with the majority

16:53:59 <markus> andys: I don't care.. I don't believe in canonical N-Triples

Andy Seaborne: I don't care.. I don't believe in canonical N-Triples

16:54:38 <markus> ... if we remove it it's a change to the CR docs so it's probably better to leave it as-is

... if we remove it it's a change to the CR docs so it's probably better to leave it as-is

16:55:23 <markus> gregg: should we add a syntax test or be completely silent on it?

Gregg Kellogg: should we add a syntax test or be completely silent on it?

16:55:34 <FabGandon> ok

Fabien Gandon: ok

16:55:52 <markus> andys: we should do nothing (it should have been a negative syntax test)

Andy Seaborne: we should do nothing (it should have been a negative syntax test)

16:56:13 <markus> TOPIC: RDF/XML

3. RDF/XML

16:56:50 <FabGandon> Status

Fabien Gandon: Status

16:56:51 <FabGandon> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-RDF-XML

Fabien Gandon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-RDF-XML

16:57:27 <AndyS> AndyS: do not want to add a negative syntax test for \' if we decide to not have \' formally in NT and Nq

Andy Seaborne: do not want to add a negative syntax test for \' if we decide to not have \' formally in NT and Nq [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:57:43 <markus> FabGandon: 1-4 are done

Fabien Gandon: 1-4 are done

16:57:56 <markus> ... 5-6 are open errata

... 5-6 are open errata

16:58:10 <markus> ... I need someone else to take a look to make sure I don't make a mistake

... I need someone else to take a look to make sure I don't make a mistake

16:58:52 <markus> ... 7 should probably not be done

... 7 should probably not be done

16:58:54 <markus> ... 8 is done

... 8 is done

17:00:54 <markus> ACTION guus to review proposed changes in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-RDF-XML

ACTION guus to review proposed changes in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-RDF-XML

17:00:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-327 - Review proposed changes in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/tf-rdf-xml [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-27].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-327 - Review proposed changes in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/tf-rdf-xml [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-27].

17:01:29 <markus> guus: we can only do this if we publish this as revised proposed recommendation in december

Guus Schreiber: we can only do this if we publish this as revised proposed recommendation in december

17:01:31 <Arnaud> sorry, got to go

Arnaud Le Hors: sorry, got to go

17:01:35 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:02:16 <markus> TOPIC: Primer

4. Primer

17:02:29 <markus> guus: any reviewers for primer?

Guus Schreiber: any reviewers for primer?

17:02:47 <pchampin> I volunteer to review it

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I volunteer to review it

17:02:50 <PatH> I volunteer. Can I make some suggested edits to it?

Patrick Hayes: I volunteer. Can I make some suggested edits to it?

17:03:49 <PatH> Thats where I will bite first :-)

Patrick Hayes: Thats where I will bite first :-)

17:04:15 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

17:04:34 <Zakim> -FabGandon

Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon

17:04:59 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:05:11 <markus> TOPIC: RDF Schema

5. RDF Schema

17:05:13 <markus> guus: RDF schema document is in good shape

Guus Schreiber: RDF schema document is in good shape

17:05:25 <markus> ... there's a link with a diff to the previous version

... there's a link with a diff to the previous version

17:05:35 <markus> zakim, who is making noise?

zakim, who is making noise?

17:05:47 <Zakim> markus, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (19%), PatH (82%)

Zakim IRC Bot: markus, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (19%), PatH (82%)

17:05:52 <markus> zakim, mute PatH

zakim, mute PatH

17:05:52 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

17:06:16 <markus> guus: I did a number of edits... could someone review them?

Guus Schreiber: I did a number of edits... could someone review them?

17:06:45 <markus> davidwood: I'll do as soon as I'm done with my other actions

David Wood: I'll do as soon as I'm done with my other actions

17:07:17 <markus> guus: adjourned

Guus Schreiber: adjourned

17:07:20 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:07:22 <pfps> I looked over the initial set of edits to RDF Schema, and they all looked OK, I think.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I looked over the initial set of edits to RDF Schema, and they all looked OK, I think.

17:07:23 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

17:07:24 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

17:07:24 <Zakim> -David_Wood

Zakim IRC Bot: -David_Wood

17:07:25 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

17:07:26 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

17:07:28 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

17:07:29 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:07:32 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

17:07:34 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

17:07:36 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

17:07:45 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

17:07:45 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:07:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ericP, David_Wood, Guus, AndyS, Ivan, gkellogg, markus, Sandro, PatH, FabGandon, AZ, Souri, Arnaud, TallTed, zwu2, pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been ericP, David_Wood, Guus, AndyS, Ivan, gkellogg, markus, Sandro, PatH, FabGandon, AZ, Souri, Arnaud, TallTed, zwu2, pchampin

17:07:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:07:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

17:07:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:07:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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