edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 06 November 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Sandro Hawke
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon link
Topics
15:56:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc

15:56:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:56:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:56:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

15:56:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:56:59 <trackbot> Date: 06 November 2013
15:58:12 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

15:58:14 <Zakim> +pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps

15:59:19 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

15:59:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:59:30 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:59:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Guus, [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, Guus, [IPcaller]

15:59:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, gavinc, davidwood, Arnaud, gkellogg, yvesr, sandro, trackbot, manu, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, gavinc, davidwood, Arnaud, gkellogg, yvesr, sandro, trackbot, manu, ericP

15:59:34 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

15:59:34 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:59:51 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:59:58 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P3 is me

15:59:58 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

16:00:21 <Zakim> +GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: +GavinC

16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

16:00:42 <AZ> Zakim, ??P6 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P6 is me

16:00:42 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:01:25 <Zakim> +David_Wood

Zakim IRC Bot: +David_Wood

16:01:44 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:02:05 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

16:02:09 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P10

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P10

16:02:09 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

16:02:13 <Guus> we need a scribe!!

Guus Schreiber: we need a scribe!!

16:02:23 <Guus> chair: Guus
16:02:41 <Guus> zakim, pick a scribe

Guus Schreiber: zakim, pick a scribe

16:02:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr

16:02:53 <Guus> zakim, pick a scribe

Guus Schreiber: zakim, pick a scribe

16:02:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro

16:03:34 <yvesr> sorry, scribed last week :)

Yves Raimond: sorry, scribed last week :)

16:03:40 <sandro> scribe: sandro

(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)

16:04:27 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

16:04:30 <Guus> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:

Guus Schreiber: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:

16:04:34 <markus> zakim, ??P14 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P14 is me

16:04:34 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

16:05:31 <sandro> action: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings

ACTION: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings

16:05:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-321 - Write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

16:05:40 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

16:05:40 <AZ> +1 accept minutes

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 accept minutes

16:05:50 <Arnaud> sorry I'm late

Arnaud Le Hors: sorry I'm late

16:05:56 <Guus> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:

Guus Schreiber: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:

16:06:04 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:06:12 <sandro> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon

RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon

16:06:43 <sandro> guus: closing 4 action items on which ericP claimed vistory

Guus Schreiber: closing 4 action items on which ericP claimed vistory

16:07:13 <pfps> yes, I contacted Michael

Peter Patel-Schneider: yes, I contacted Michael

16:08:29 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

16:08:40 <pfps> q-

Peter Patel-Schneider: q-

16:08:41 <AndyS> q+ to mention licensing issues.

Andy Seaborne: q+ to mention licensing issues.

16:08:44 <sandro> guus: Hopefully everyone saw the announcements for RDF 1.1 CR and JSON-LD PR.     Congrats and thanks to everyone.

Guus Schreiber: Hopefully everyone saw the announcements for RDF 1.1 CR and JSON-LD PR. Congrats and thanks to everyone.

16:08:50 <gavinc> Thanks sandro for talking care of the publishing issues!

Gavin Carothers: Thanks sandro for talking care of the publishing issues!

16:09:02 <sandro> *nod* your welcome...

*nod* your welcome...

16:09:26 <sandro> guus: I'll be announcing to various listsa.

Guus Schreiber: I'll be announcing to various listsa.

16:09:30 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

16:10:11 <sandro> ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists

ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists

16:10:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - Draft announcement emails for other lists [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-322 - Draft announcement emails for other lists [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

16:10:29 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:10:33 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

16:10:47 <sandro> sandro: might start with my w3.org homepage news, but more emphasis on changes for rdf folks

Sandro Hawke: might start with my w3.org homepage news, but more emphasis on changes for rdf folks

16:10:57 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

16:10:58 <sandro> guus: I already requested pub of rdf-json for tomorrow.

Guus Schreiber: I already requested pub of rdf-json for tomorrow.

16:11:30 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

16:11:38 <sandro> topic: Antoinne's draft note on Dataset Semantics

1. Antoinne's draft note on Dataset Semantics

16:12:15 <sandro> AZ: Goal is to provide a formal account of the various formal semantics that people have discussed in this group

Antoine Zimmermann: Goal is to provide a formal account of the various formal semantics that people have discussed in this group

16:12:44 <sandro> az: current state -- there are comments from Peter that require changes which I still have to do, but it would be good if other people look at the document.

Antoine Zimmermann: current state -- there are comments from Peter that require changes which I still have to do, but it would be good if other people look at the document.

16:12:54 <sandro> .. it would also be good to have advice on how to structure the document.

.. it would also be good to have advice on how to structure the document.

16:13:11 <pfps> I think that the document could be published as a first version as is - first versions are often missing bits, etc.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I think that the document could be published as a first version as is - first versions are often missing bits, etc.

16:13:12 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:13:39 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

16:13:48 <sandro> PatH: Sorry for not commenting on this earlier.

Patrick Hayes: Sorry for not commenting on this earlier.

16:14:03 <sandro> .. I have some wording niggles, which I'll send in.

.. I have some wording niggles, which I'll send in.

16:14:14 <sandro> .. Is it thought desirable to publish such a note?

.. Is it thought desirable to publish such a note?

16:14:38 <sandro> .. At one point we had consensus that the smart thing to do was to let the world decide what the semantics are, to see what emerges.

.. At one point we had consensus that the smart thing to do was to let the world decide what the semantics are, to see what emerges.

16:14:50 <sandro> .. If patterns emerge, they could be provided with semantics

.. If patterns emerge, they could be provided with semantics

16:15:14 <sandro> .. What bothers me a little is that idea that this document will be understood as a kind of limit or constraint on datasets, which I think might not be a good thing to do.

.. What bothers me a little is that idea that this document will be understood as a kind of limit or constraint on datasets, which I think might not be a good thing to do.

16:15:24 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:15:31 <sandro> .. It's a problem with something that perports to survey the possibilities

.. It's a problem with something that perports to survey the possibilities

16:15:46 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

16:16:02 <sandro> guus: We resolved as a group that we'd publish some alternative ideas, as a NOTE.

Guus Schreiber: We resolved as a group that we'd publish some alternative ideas, as a NOTE.

16:16:07 <sandro> q+

q+

16:16:31 <sandro> guus: The intent, in discussions, was that we'd publish different alternative semantics.

Guus Schreiber: The intent, in discussions, was that we'd publish different alternative semantics.

16:16:44 <Guus> ack Guus

Guus Schreiber: ack Guus

16:16:50 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

16:17:10 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

16:17:15 <pfps> +1 to make the situation explicit in the document abstract and introduction

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to make the situation explicit in the document abstract and introduction

16:17:19 <PatH> +1 sandro

Patrick Hayes: +1 sandro

16:17:20 <sandro> sandro: Maybe we can make sure the title, intro, abstract make clear this is a starting point for the discussion, not an ending point.

Sandro Hawke: Maybe we can make sure the title, intro, abstract make clear this is a starting point for the discussion, not an ending point.

16:17:38 <sandro> guus: Sandro, what about the conceptual material you wrote?

Guus Schreiber: Sandro, what about the conceptual material you wrote?

16:17:48 <AZ> q-

Antoine Zimmermann: q-

16:18:36 <sandro> sandro: Sorry, I haven't read it yet, so it's hard to tell

Sandro Hawke: Sorry, I haven't read it yet, so it's hard to tell

16:19:40 <sandro> az: In the beginning of what I wrote, I'm saying that in addition to any mathematical definition, it is also possible to interpret named graphs in reference to the architecture of the Web.    That is the name of the graph has to be understood to be what you get when you dereference the URI.  But I didn't get very far in this direciton.

Antoine Zimmermann: In the beginning of what I wrote, I'm saying that in addition to any mathematical definition, it is also possible to interpret named graphs in reference to the architecture of the Web. That is the name of the graph has to be understood to be what you get when you dereference the URI. But I didn't get very far in this direciton.

16:19:43 <sandro> guus: I think that would be useful, but it doesn't need to block publication.

Guus Schreiber: I think that would be useful, but it doesn't need to block publication.

16:19:52 <sandro> guus:We do need two WG reviewers.

Guus Schreiber: We do need two WG reviewers.

16:19:54 <PatH> I will review it in detail

Patrick Hayes: I will review it in detail

16:20:12 <PatH> It will take me a week or so.

Patrick Hayes: It will take me a week or so.

16:20:35 <sandro> guus: review by next Wednesday?

Guus Schreiber: review by next Wednesday?

16:20:38 <PatH> OK by next week

Patrick Hayes: OK by next week

16:20:46 <PatH> sure

Patrick Hayes: sure

16:21:00 <sandro> action: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document

ACTION: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document

16:21:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-11-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-323 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-11-13].

16:21:07 <sandro> action: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document

ACTION: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document

16:21:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-324 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-324 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

16:21:17 <sandro> gavin: I'll try to do it as well.

Gavin Carothers: I'll try to do it as well.

16:21:26 <sandro> guus: I'll try to see if some of sandro's text would fit in as well.

Guus Schreiber: I'll try to see if some of sandro's text would fit in as well.

16:21:57 <sandro> guus: I suggest you wait for this first review, and see what parts you take on board.    Plan to publish in 2 weeks  (20 Nov)

Guus Schreiber: I suggest you wait for this first review, and see what parts you take on board. Plan to publish in 2 weeks (20 Nov)

16:22:47 <sandro> guus: then we'll republish when we go to REC

Guus Schreiber: then we'll republish when we go to REC

16:22:55 <PatH> can we take the fox and the cabbage over the river?

Patrick Hayes: can we take the fox and the cabbage over the river?

16:23:03 <sandro> :-)

:-)

16:23:32 <sandro> sandro: actually, the plan to go to REC is 20140204 (since we need to wait for patent exlusion period)

Sandro Hawke: actually, the plan to go to REC is 20140204 (since we need to wait for patent exlusion period)

16:23:56 <sandro> guus: The director was satisfied with how we handled the transition, by the way.

Guus Schreiber: The director was satisfied with how we handled the transition, by the way.

16:24:19 <sandro> guus: As long as we get in PR decision this calendar year, we should be okay.      Either a formal short extension, or not.

Guus Schreiber: As long as we get in PR decision this calendar year, we should be okay. Either a formal short extension, or not.

16:25:21 <sandro> topic: Semantics Tests

2. Semantics Tests

16:25:32 <sandro> guus: Any responses, Peter?

Guus Schreiber: Any responses, Peter?

16:25:35 <sandro> pfps: No.

Peter Patel-Schneider: No.

16:25:42 <sandro> pfps: I don't understand the process.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't understand the process.

16:25:56 <sandro> pfps: I have a list of people to send the message to.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I have a list of people to send the message to.

16:26:18 <sandro> gkellogg?

gkellogg?

16:26:36 <sandro> pfps: We need help with the EARL stuff

Peter Patel-Schneider: We need help with the EARL stuff

16:26:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:26:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri

16:26:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, zwu2, PatH, markus, AZ, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, gavinc, davidwood, Arnaud, gkellogg, yvesr, sandro, trackbot, manu, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, zwu2, PatH, markus, AZ, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, gavinc, davidwood, Arnaud, gkellogg, yvesr, sandro, trackbot, manu, ericP

16:26:47 <sandro> pfps: Michael Schneider said he'd run the tests.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Michael Schneider said he'd run the tests.

16:26:55 <sandro> pfps: a test harness would be great

Peter Patel-Schneider: a test harness would be great

16:27:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:27:14 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:27:14 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

16:27:15 <sandro> gkellogg: I've offered to help.  We have a sample report there.

Gregg Kellogg: I've offered to help. We have a sample report there.

16:27:16 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:27:17 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

16:27:40 <sandro> gkellogg: in the Implementation Report

Gregg Kellogg: in the Implementation Report

16:27:46 <sandro> sandro: It's linked from the spec as "IMplementation Report"

Sandro Hawke: It's linked from the spec as "IMplementation Report"

16:27:47 <AndyS> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite#Turtle_Tests

Andy Seaborne: e.g. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite#Turtle_Tests

16:28:03 <gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/index.html

Gavin Carothers: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/index.html

16:28:07 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/

16:28:18 <gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

Gavin Carothers: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

16:28:23 <sandro> scroll down to Implementation report:

scroll down to Implementation report:

16:28:23 <sandro>     https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

16:28:42 <sandro> pfps: instructions, instructions, instructions

Peter Patel-Schneider: instructions, instructions, instructions

16:29:00 <sandro> gkellogg: The report is automatically generated based on the collected results -- of which we don't have any yet.

Gregg Kellogg: The report is automatically generated based on the collected results -- of which we don't have any yet.

16:29:08 <sandro> gkellogg: It uses the manifest to create this document.

Gregg Kellogg: It uses the manifest to create this document.

16:29:18 <sandro> gkellogg:We can add more instruction if you want

Gregg Kellogg: We can add more instruction if you want

16:29:31 <sandro> pfps: I'll take a look

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll take a look

16:30:12 <sandro> gkellogg: YOu can change the markdown, or just mail it to me.

Gregg Kellogg: YOu can change the markdown, or just mail it to me.

16:30:22 <ericP> q+ to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests

16:30:42 <sandro> pfps: Is there a model earl file?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Is there a model earl file?

16:30:51 <sandro> gkellogg: Look in the nquads or trig directories.

Gregg Kellogg: Look in the nquads or trig directories.

16:32:16 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/

Gregg Kellogg: http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/

16:33:00 <sandro> gkellogg: we might be having the HTTPS problem here, breaking respec

Gregg Kellogg: we might be having the HTTPS problem here, breaking respec

16:33:39 <sandro> pfps: I'll give it a try.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll give it a try.

16:33:57 <sandro> gkellogg: I don't know what it would actually take to run a semantics test.

Gregg Kellogg: I don't know what it would actually take to run a semantics test.

16:34:44 <gavinc> AC messaged as well

Gavin Carothers: AC messaged as well

16:35:15 <sandro> sandro: Basically at this point, signal-boost and signal-refine the announcements made yesterday on w3.org

Sandro Hawke: Basically at this point, signal-boost and signal-refine the announcements made yesterday on w3.org

16:35:47 <sandro> pfps: I have a list of folks to email

Peter Patel-Schneider: I have a list of folks to email

16:36:06 <sandro> pfps: guus will produce a general email, and I'll forward that on with a little intro

Peter Patel-Schneider: guus will produce a general email, and I'll forward that on with a little intro

16:36:07 <sandro> +1

+1

16:36:25 <sandro> pfps: ... tailored to semantics implementators.

Peter Patel-Schneider: ... tailored to semantics implementators.

16:36:57 <sandro> pfps: OWL Reasoners will have a lot of trouble with this, since it's mostly not OWL DL.

Peter Patel-Schneider: OWL Reasoners will have a lot of trouble with this, since it's mostly not OWL DL.

16:37:16 <sandro> pfps: Michael Schneider at least should be able to run these

Peter Patel-Schneider: Michael Schneider at least should be able to run these

16:37:34 <sandro> pfps: We should decide about AZ's tests.   They're great, but perverse.

Peter Patel-Schneider: We should decide about AZ's tests. They're great, but perverse.

16:38:27 <sandro> sandro: How about including them as "Proposed" tests and see how folks do on them.

Sandro Hawke: How about including them as "Proposed" tests and see how folks do on them.

16:38:38 <sandro> pfps: Sounds good, I'll mention that in the documentation.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Sounds good, I'll mention that in the documentation.

16:38:58 <sandro> pfps: Hopefully the setup will work if someone submits an extra test.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Hopefully the setup will work if someone submits an extra test.

16:39:04 <sandro> pfps: Okay, we'll try this.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Okay, we'll try this.

16:39:50 <sandro> guus: I'd like to include in the CFI one paragraph about how to submit tests.

Guus Schreiber: I'd like to include in the CFI one paragraph about how to submit tests.

16:40:07 <sandro> sandro: in the stuff I wrote, I said the Impl. Rep. has the instructions.

Sandro Hawke: in the stuff I wrote, I said the Impl. Rep. has the instructions.

16:40:14 <sandro> guus: I leave that up to Gregg.

Guus Schreiber: I leave that up to Gregg.

16:40:25 <sandro> gkellogg: This info has been adequate for folks so far.

Gregg Kellogg: This info has been adequate for folks so far.

16:41:07 <sandro> gkellogg: I just don't know if there's something about semantics that needs to be different

Gregg Kellogg: I just don't know if there's something about semantics that needs to be different

16:41:16 <sandro> sandro: peter said he's review the instructions

Sandro Hawke: peter said he's review the instructions

16:41:22 <sandro> peter: I'll do that today

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll do that today

16:41:28 <sandro> guus: so I can get things out by Friday

Guus Schreiber: so I can get things out by Friday

16:41:37 <sandro> guus: Thanks!

Guus Schreiber: Thanks!

16:41:56 <sandro> gkellogg: Often the impl reps need some back and forth.

Gregg Kellogg: Often the impl reps need some back and forth.

16:42:02 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ has LICENSE README TESTS.{tar.gz,zip} manifest.ttl

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ has LICENSE README TESTS.{tar.gz,zip} manifest.ttl

16:42:03 <sandro> topic: Turtle Tests

2.1. Turtle Tests

16:42:38 <sandro> ericP: I suggest copying this structure

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I suggest copying this structure

16:43:03 <sandro> ericP: There are some controvercial bits, like canonical bnodes and triple ordering

Eric Prud'hommeaux: There are some controvercial bits, like canonical bnodes and triple ordering

16:43:40 <sandro> .. Also a commenter asked us to annotate any tests that are outside the basic multilingual plane (> FFFD) but I don't think you'll have any of those.

.. Also a commenter asked us to annotate any tests that are outside the basic multilingual plane (> FFFD) but I don't think you'll have any of those.

16:43:54 <sandro> s/topic:/subtopic:/
16:44:12 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

16:44:31 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR comments

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR comments

16:44:48 <Guus> ack ericP

Guus Schreiber: ack ericP

16:44:48 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests

16:44:57 <Guus> ack gkellogg

Guus Schreiber: ack gkellogg

16:45:17 <sandro> gkellogg: test issues.   N-Quads calls for running two manifests.     Maybe we should copy n-triples tests into n-quads.

Gregg Kellogg: test issues. N-Quads calls for running two manifests. Maybe we should copy n-triples tests into n-quads.

16:45:49 <sandro> gavinc: Yes, please copy them.

Gavin Carothers: Yes, please copy them.

16:45:58 <sandro> gkellogg: Okay, will do.

Gregg Kellogg: Okay, will do.

16:46:18 <sandro> gavinc: Do we have much coverage for N-Triples things that have changed?

Gavin Carothers: Do we have much coverage for N-Triples things that have changed?

16:46:45 <sandro> gkellogg: I don't know.   I tried to be thorough, but I may have missed areas.

Gregg Kellogg: I don't know. I tried to be thorough, but I may have missed areas.

16:47:27 <sandro> gkellogg: I think we test the various escape sequences.   THere may be whitespace variations we dont have coverage on.

Gregg Kellogg: I think we test the various escape sequences. THere may be whitespace variations we dont have coverage on.

16:47:45 <sandro> ericP: I did a coverage report on Turtle which might be helpful for Trig.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I did a coverage report on Turtle which might be helpful for Trig.

16:47:57 <AndyS> Sorry - sound probs

Andy Seaborne: Sorry - sound probs

16:47:58 <sandro> gavinc: AndyS, who did you feel about the coverage?

Gavin Carothers: AndyS, how did you feel about the coverage?

16:48:04 <sandro> s/who/how/
16:48:13 <AndyS> I don't know - I just run the tests - haven't looked in a long time :-)

Andy Seaborne: I don't know - I just run the tests - haven't looked in a long time :-)

16:48:49 <sandro> markus: In your review of Concepts, you asked if we should update our pointing to RDF Test Cases.

Markus Lanthaler: In your review of Concepts, you asked if we should update our pointing to RDF Test Cases.

16:49:36 <sandro> guus: Yeah, hard question.    Maybe put it in as a point to fix?

Guus Schreiber: Yeah, hard question. Maybe put it in as a point to fix?

16:49:49 <sandro> gkellogg: Didn't the RDF Test Cases turn into the rdf11-mt tests?

Gregg Kellogg: Didn't the RDF Test Cases turn into the rdf11-mt tests?

16:49:58 <sandro> guus: True.

Guus Schreiber: True.

16:50:43 <sandro> markus: We don't have an index for the test suites.

Markus Lanthaler: We don't have an index for the test suites.

16:50:50 <sandro> guus: Let's make one, and then point to it.

Guus Schreiber: Let's make one, and then point to it.

16:51:38 <sandro> Things like http://www.w3.org/2013/rdf-mt-tests/

Things like http://www.w3.org/2013/rdf-mt-tests/

16:51:49 <sandro> gkellogg: EARL URLs issue...

Gregg Kellogg: EARL URLs issue...

16:53:07 <sandro> gkellogg: We change the URLs when we move the test suite

Gregg Kellogg: We change the URLs when we move the test suite

16:53:38 <sandro> gavinc: Can we just use @base at the top of the manfiest?

Gavin Carothers: Can we just use @base at the top of the manfiest?

16:53:57 <AndyS> Does not work - need to fetch the test by GET.

Andy Seaborne: Does not work - need to fetch the test by GET.

16:54:25 <sandro> ericP: In the turtle tests, we felt guilty moving it, but no one complained.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: In the turtle tests, we felt guilty moving it, but no one complained.

16:54:42 <sandro> gkellogg: It'd be good to people a heads up.

Gregg Kellogg: It'd be good to people a heads up.

16:55:08 <gavinc> yay sed!

Gavin Carothers: yay sed!

16:55:12 <gavinc> sed can save us ;)

Gavin Carothers: sed can save us ;)

16:55:22 <sandro> sandro: Don't want to throw away results

Sandro Hawke: Don't want to throw away results

16:56:16 <sandro> markus: proxy?

Markus Lanthaler: proxy?

16:56:18 <gavinc> Proxying HTTPS to HTTP is a no no ;)

Gavin Carothers: Proxying HTTPS to HTTP is a no no ;)

16:56:21 <sandro> sandro: technical problems with that

Sandro Hawke: technical problems with that

16:57:03 <sandro> eric: n-triples & turtle overlap ?     trig and turtle overlap?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: n-triples & turtle overlap ? trig and turtle overlap?

16:57:23 <AndyS> Too late to get too clever.

Andy Seaborne: Too late to get too clever.

16:57:32 <sandro> gavinc: We could make the Trig test suite include the turtle tests and n-triples tests.

Gavin Carothers: We could make the Trig test suite include the turtle tests and n-triples tests.

16:57:44 <AndyS> We need to give people time to execute the tests and report.

Andy Seaborne: We need to give people time to execute the tests and report.

16:58:03 <sandro> gkellogg: We might have done that for Turtle.

Gregg Kellogg: We might have done that for Turtle.

16:58:20 <sandro> guus: Make sure it's done by the end of the week, if it's being done.

Guus Schreiber: Make sure it's done by the end of the week, if it's being done.

16:58:46 <sandro> action: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests

ACTION: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests

16:58:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-325 - Make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [on Gregg Kellogg - due 2013-11-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-325 - Make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [on Gregg Kellogg - due 2013-11-13].

16:59:12 <sandro> topic: Turtle CR Comments

3. Turtle CR Comments

16:59:18 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR

16:59:24 <AndyS> GT

Andy Seaborne: GT

16:59:33 <AndyS> GTG - bye

Andy Seaborne: GTG - bye

17:00:08 <sandro> ericP: (summarizes ...)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (summarizes ...)

17:02:43 <sandro> guus: I made a page for CR comments, and moved our deferred comments there.

Guus Schreiber: I made a page for CR comments, and moved our deferred comments there.

17:03:32 <sandro> gavinc: Comment on N-Triples....    is that a new comment on CR?

Gavin Carothers: Comment on N-Triples.... is that a new comment on CR?

17:03:41 <sandro> eric: Yes?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Yes?

17:04:20 <sandro> gavinc: (Please dont do UTF8)

Gavin Carothers: (Please dont do UTF8)

17:04:21 <Guus> CR comments page for the 5 RDF 1.1 docs: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_comments_Concepts_Semantics_TriG_N-Triples_N-Quads

Guus Schreiber: CR comments page for the 5 RDF 1.1 docs: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_comments_Concepts_Semantics_TriG_N-Triples_N-Quads

17:05:54 <Arnaud> I need to drop off

Arnaud Le Hors: I need to drop off

17:05:59 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:06:32 <gavinc> tah dah http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_Comments

Gavin Carothers: tah dah http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_Comments

17:07:15 <sandro> topic: RDFS

4. RDFS

17:07:40 <sandro> guus: The plan is to make RDF Schema be an Edited Recommendation, so no technical content changes.

Guus Schreiber: The plan is to make RDF Schema be an Edited Recommendation, so no technical content changes.

17:07:56 <sandro> .. yesterday I did a respec version

.. yesterday I did a respec version

17:09:01 <sandro> .. not sure about the diff

.. not sure about the diff

17:09:02 <gavinc> Best bet that I've tried in the past was produce HTML from both, and then use pandoc to produce Markdown from both, and then compare those ;)

Gavin Carothers: Best bet that I've tried in the past was produce HTML from both, and then use pandoc to produce Markdown from both, and then compare those ;)

17:09:24 <sandro> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-schema/index.html

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-schema/index.html

17:09:46 <sandro> eric: Do we want Turtle to go to PR early?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do we want Turtle to go to PR early?

17:09:49 <sandro> guus: No.

Guus Schreiber: No.

17:10:33 <sandro> guus: Should we add the new datatypes in the RDF namespace?

Guus Schreiber: Should we add the new datatypes in the RDF namespace?

17:10:46 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

17:10:47 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

17:10:50 <sandro> ... rdf:langString and rdf:HTML

... rdf:langString and rdf:HTML

17:11:07 <sandro> sandro: I think that's fine since it's just including changes made elsewhere.

Sandro Hawke: I think that's fine since it's just including changes made elsewhere.

17:11:25 <sandro> ted: I have a user who wants language tag and datatype

Ted Thibodeau: I have a user who says Jena is producing "string"@lang^^xsd:string which isn't clearly forbidden in current writing

17:11:33 <sandro> sandro: not allowed to do that in xml schema

Sandro Hawke: not allowed to do that in xml schema

17:11:46 <sandro> guus: Should we make plainLiteral as being obsolete?

Guus Schreiber: Should we make plainLiteral as being obsolete?

17:11:57 <sandro> guus: editors?

Guus Schreiber: editors?

17:12:28 <sandro> sandro: No, it can't be obsolete because it's used by OWL 2

Sandro Hawke: No, it can't be obsolete because it's used by OWL 2

17:12:56 <sandro> sandro: and can't even be 'deprecated' if other stuff we don't think people should use can't be deprecated.

Sandro Hawke: and can't even be 'deprecated' if other stuff we don't think people should use can't be deprecated.

17:13:03 <sandro> ADJOURN

ADJOURN

17:13:03 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

17:13:05 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

17:13:09 <Zakim> -David_Wood

Zakim IRC Bot: -David_Wood

17:13:10 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

17:13:10 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

17:13:11 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:13:11 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

17:13:13 <Zakim> -GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC

17:13:13 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

17:13:14 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

17:13:15 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

17:13:16 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:13:27 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

17:13:27 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:13:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri, TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri, TallTed

17:13:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:13:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

17:13:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:13:36 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [1]

ACTION: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [1]

17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-05-31

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-05-31

17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists [2]

ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists [2]

17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-10-11

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-10-11

17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document [3]

ACTION: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document [3]

17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-00

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-00

17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document [4]

ACTION: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document [4]

17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-07

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-07

17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [5]

ACTION: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [5]

17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-58-46

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-58-46

17:13:44 <TallTed> s/who wants language tag and datatype/who says Jena is producing "string"@lang^^xsd:string which isn't clearly forbidden in current writing/


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