15:56:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc
15:56:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:56:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:56:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:56:59 <trackbot> Date: 06 November 2013
15:57:30 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:12 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:58:14 <Zakim> +pfps
15:58:19 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:00 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:19 <Zakim> +Guus
15:59:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:30 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:59:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Guus, [IPcaller]
15:59:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, gavinc, davidwood, Arnaud, gkellogg, yvesr, sandro, trackbot, manu, ericP
15:59:34 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:59:34 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:51 <Zakim> +??P3
15:59:58 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:59:58 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:00:21 <Zakim> +GavinC
16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P6
16:00:42 <AZ> Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:00:42 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:01:25 <Zakim> +David_Wood
16:01:44 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:02:05 <Zakim> +??P10
16:02:09 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P10
16:02:09 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
16:02:13 <Guus> we need a scribe!!
16:02:23 <Guus> chair: Guus
16:02:41 <Guus> zakim, pick a scribe
16:02:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr
16:02:53 <Guus> zakim, pick a scribe
16:02:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
16:02:54 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:34 <yvesr> sorry, scribed last week :)
16:03:40 <sandro> scribe: sandro
16:04:27 <Zakim> +??P14
16:04:30 <Guus> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:
16:04:34 <markus> zakim, ??P14 is me
16:04:34 <Zakim> +markus; got it
16:05:21 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:31 <sandro> action: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings
16:05:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].
16:05:40 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:05:40 <AZ> +1 accept minutes
16:05:50 <Arnaud> sorry I'm late
16:05:56 <Guus> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:
16:06:04 <Zakim> +PatH
16:06:12 <sandro> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon
16:06:43 <sandro> guus: closing 4 action items on which ericP claimed vistory
16:07:13 <pfps> yes, I contacted Michael
16:08:29 <pfps> q+
16:08:40 <pfps> q-
16:08:41 <AndyS> q+ to mention licensing issues.
16:08:44 <sandro> guus: Hopefully everyone saw the announcements for RDF 1.1 CR and JSON-LD PR.     Congrats and thanks to everyone.
16:08:50 <gavinc> Thanks sandro for talking care of the publishing issues!
16:09:02 <sandro> *nod* your welcome...
16:09:26 <sandro> guus: I'll be announcing to various listsa.
16:09:30 <Zakim> +EricP
16:09:44 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:10:11 <sandro> ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists
16:10:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - Draft announcement emails for other lists [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].
16:10:29 <Zakim> -EricP
16:10:33 <Zakim> +EricP
16:10:47 <sandro> sandro: might start with my w3.org homepage news, but more emphasis on changes for rdf folks
16:10:57 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:10:58 <sandro> guus: I already requested pub of rdf-json for tomorrow.
16:11:30 <AndyS> q-
16:11:38 <sandro> topic: Antoinne's draft note on Dataset Semantics
16:12:15 <sandro> AZ: Goal is to provide a formal account of the various formal semantics that people have discussed in this group
16:12:44 <sandro> az: current state -- there are comments from Peter that require changes which I still have to do, but it would be good if other people look at the document.
16:12:54 <sandro> .. it would also be good to have advice on how to structure the document.
16:13:11 <pfps> I think that the document could be published as a first version as is - first versions are often missing bits, etc.
16:13:12 <PatH> q+
16:13:39 <Guus> ack PatH
16:13:48 <sandro> PatH: Sorry for not commenting on this earlier.
16:14:03 <sandro> .. I have some wording niggles, which I'll send in.
16:14:14 <sandro> .. Is it thought desirable to publish such a note?
16:14:38 <sandro> .. At one point we had consensus that the smart thing to do was to let the world decide what the semantics are, to see what emerges.
16:14:50 <sandro> .. If patterns emerge, they could be provided with semantics
16:15:14 <sandro> .. What bothers me a little is that idea that this document will be understood as a kind of limit or constraint on datasets, which I think might not be a good thing to do.
16:15:24 <Guus> q+
16:15:31 <sandro> .. It's a problem with something that perports to survey the possibilities
16:15:36 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:15:46 <Zakim> +Souri
16:16:02 <sandro> guus: We resolved as a group that we'd publish some alternative ideas, as a NOTE.
16:16:07 <sandro> q+
16:16:31 <sandro> guus: The intent, in discussions, was that we'd publish different alternative semantics.
16:16:44 <Guus> ack Guus
16:16:50 <Guus> ack sandro
16:17:10 <AZ> q+
16:17:15 <pfps> +1 to make the situation explicit in the document abstract and introduction
16:17:19 <PatH> +1 sandro
16:17:20 <sandro> sandro: Maybe we can make sure the title, intro, abstract make clear this is a starting point for the discussion, not an ending point.
16:17:38 <sandro> guus: Sandro, what about the conceptual material you wrote?
16:17:48 <AZ> q-
16:18:36 <sandro> sandro: Sorry, I haven't read it yet, so it's hard to tell
16:19:40 <sandro> az: In the beginning of what I wrote, I'm saying that in addition to any mathematical definition, it is also possible to interpret named graphs in reference to the architecture of the Web.    That is the name of the graph has to be understood to be what you get when you dereference the URI.  But I didn't get very far in this direciton.
16:19:43 <sandro> guus: I think that would be useful, but it doesn't need to block publication.
16:19:52 <sandro> guus:We do need two WG reviewers.
16:19:54 <PatH> I will review it in detail
16:20:12 <PatH> It will take me a week or so.
16:20:35 <sandro> guus: review by next Wednesday?
16:20:38 <PatH> OK by next week
16:20:46 <PatH> sure
16:21:00 <sandro> action: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document
16:21:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-11-13].
16:21:07 <sandro> action: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document
16:21:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-324 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].
16:21:17 <sandro> gavin: I'll try to do it as well.
16:21:26 <sandro> guus: I'll try to see if some of sandro's text would fit in as well.
16:21:57 <sandro> guus: I suggest you wait for this first review, and see what parts you take on board.    Plan to publish in 2 weeks  (20 Nov)
16:22:47 <sandro> guus: then we'll republish when we go to REC
16:22:55 <PatH> can we take the fox and the cabbage over the river?
16:23:03 <sandro> :-)
16:23:32 <sandro> sandro: actually, the plan to go to REC is 20140204 (since we need to wait for patent exlusion period)
16:23:56 <sandro> guus: The director was satisfied with how we handled the transition, by the way.
16:24:19 <sandro> guus: As long as we get in PR decision this calendar year, we should be okay.      Either a formal short extension, or not.
16:25:21 <sandro> topic: Semantics Tests
16:25:32 <sandro> guus: Any responses, Peter?
16:25:35 <sandro> pfps: No.
16:25:42 <sandro> pfps: I don't understand the process.
16:25:56 <sandro> pfps: I have a list of people to send the message to.
16:26:18 <sandro> gkellogg?
16:26:36 <sandro> pfps: We need help with the EARL stuff
16:26:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:26:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri
16:26:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, zwu2, PatH, markus, AZ, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, TallTed, gavinc, davidwood, Arnaud, gkellogg, yvesr, sandro, trackbot, manu, ericP
16:26:47 <sandro> pfps: Michael Schneider said he'd run the tests.
16:26:55 <sandro> pfps: a test harness would be great
16:27:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:27:14 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:27:14 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
16:27:15 <sandro> gkellogg: I've offered to help.  We have a sample report there.
16:27:16 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:27:17 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:27:40 <sandro> gkellogg: in the Implementation Report
16:27:46 <sandro> sandro: It's linked from the spec as "IMplementation Report"
16:27:47 <AndyS> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite#Turtle_Tests
16:28:03 <gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/index.html
16:28:07 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/
16:28:18 <gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html
16:28:23 <sandro> scroll down to Implementation report:
16:28:23 <sandro>     https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html
16:28:42 <sandro> pfps: instructions, instructions, instructions
16:29:00 <sandro> gkellogg: The report is automatically generated based on the collected results -- of which we don't have any yet.
16:29:08 <sandro> gkellogg: It uses the manifest to create this document.
16:29:18 <sandro> gkellogg:We can add more instruction if you want
16:29:31 <sandro> pfps: I'll take a look
16:30:12 <sandro> gkellogg: YOu can change the markdown, or just mail it to me.
16:30:22 <ericP> q+ to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests
16:30:42 <sandro> pfps: Is there a model earl file?
16:30:51 <sandro> gkellogg: Look in the nquads or trig directories.
16:32:16 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/
16:33:00 <sandro> gkellogg: we might be having the HTTPS problem here, breaking respec
16:33:39 <sandro> pfps: I'll give it a try.
16:33:57 <sandro> gkellogg: I don't know what it would actually take to run a semantics test.
16:34:44 <gavinc> AC messaged as well
16:35:15 <sandro> sandro: Basically at this point, signal-boost and signal-refine the announcements made yesterday on w3.org
16:35:47 <sandro> pfps: I have a list of folks to email
16:36:06 <sandro> pfps: guus will produce a general email, and I'll forward that on with a little intro
16:36:07 <sandro> +1
16:36:25 <sandro> pfps: ... tailored to semantics implementators.
16:36:57 <sandro> pfps: OWL Reasoners will have a lot of trouble with this, since it's mostly not OWL DL.
16:37:16 <sandro> pfps: Michael Schneider at least should be able to run these
16:37:34 <sandro> pfps: We should decide about AZ's tests.   They're great, but perverse.
16:38:27 <sandro> sandro: How about including them as "Proposed" tests and see how folks do on them.
16:38:38 <sandro> pfps: Sounds good, I'll mention that in the documentation.
16:38:58 <sandro> pfps: Hopefully the setup will work if someone submits an extra test.
16:39:04 <sandro> pfps: Okay, we'll try this.
16:39:50 <sandro> guus: I'd like to include in the CFI one paragraph about how to submit tests.
16:40:07 <sandro> sandro: in the stuff I wrote, I said the Impl. Rep. has the instructions.
16:40:14 <sandro> guus: I leave that up to Gregg.
16:40:25 <sandro> gkellogg: This info has been adequate for folks so far.
16:41:07 <sandro> gkellogg: I just don't know if there's something about semantics that needs to be different
16:41:16 <sandro> sandro: peter said he's review the instructions
16:41:22 <sandro> peter: I'll do that today
16:41:28 <sandro> guus: so I can get things out by Friday
16:41:37 <sandro> guus: Thanks!
16:41:56 <sandro> gkellogg: Often the impl reps need some back and forth.
16:42:02 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ has LICENSE README TESTS.{tar.gz,zip} manifest.ttl
16:42:03 <sandro> topic: Turtle Tests
16:42:38 <sandro> ericP: I suggest copying this structure
16:43:03 <sandro> ericP: There are some controvercial bits, like canonical bnodes and triple ordering
16:43:40 <sandro> .. Also a commenter asked us to annotate any tests that are outside the basic multilingual plane (> FFFD) but I don't think you'll have any of those.
16:43:54 <sandro> s/topic:/subtopic:/
16:44:12 <gkellogg> q+
16:44:31 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR comments
16:44:48 <Guus> ack ericP
16:44:48 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests
16:44:57 <Guus> ack gkellogg
16:45:17 <sandro> gkellogg: test issues.   N-Quads calls for running two manifests.     Maybe we should copy n-triples tests into n-quads.
16:45:49 <sandro> gavinc: Yes, please copy them.
16:45:58 <sandro> gkellogg: Okay, will do.
16:46:18 <sandro> gavinc: Do we have much coverage for N-Triples things that have changed?
16:46:45 <sandro> gkellogg: I don't know.   I tried to be thorough, but I may have missed areas.
16:47:27 <sandro> gkellogg: I think we test the various escape sequences.   THere may be whitespace variations we dont have coverage on.
16:47:45 <sandro> ericP: I did a coverage report on Turtle which might be helpful for Trig.
16:47:57 <AndyS> Sorry - sound probs
16:47:58 <sandro> gavinc: AndyS, who did you feel about the coverage?
16:48:04 <sandro> s/who/how/
16:48:13 <AndyS> I don't know - I just run the tests - haven't looked in a long time :-)
16:48:49 <sandro> markus: In your review of Concepts, you asked if we should update our pointing to RDF Test Cases.
16:49:36 <sandro> guus: Yeah, hard question.    Maybe put it in as a point to fix?
16:49:49 <sandro> gkellogg: Didn't the RDF Test Cases turn into the rdf11-mt tests?
16:49:58 <sandro> guus: True.
16:50:43 <sandro> markus: We don't have an index for the test suites.
16:50:50 <sandro> guus: Let's make one, and then point to it.
16:51:38 <sandro> Things like http://www.w3.org/2013/rdf-mt-tests/
16:51:49 <sandro> gkellogg: EARL URLs issue...
16:53:07 <sandro> gkellogg: We change the URLs when we move the test suite
16:53:38 <sandro> gavinc: Can we just use @base at the top of the manfiest?
16:53:57 <AndyS> Does not work - need to fetch the test by GET.
16:54:25 <sandro> ericP: In the turtle tests, we felt guilty moving it, but no one complained.
16:54:42 <sandro> gkellogg: It'd be good to people a heads up.
16:55:08 <gavinc> yay sed!
16:55:12 <gavinc> sed can save us ;)
16:55:22 <sandro> sandro: Don't want to throw away results
16:56:16 <sandro> markus: proxy?
16:56:18 <gavinc> Proxying HTTPS to HTTP is a no no ;)
16:56:21 <sandro> sandro: technical problems with that
16:57:03 <sandro> eric: n-triples & turtle overlap ?     trig and turtle overlap?
16:57:23 <AndyS> Too late to get too clever.
16:57:32 <sandro> gavinc: We could make the Trig test suite include the turtle tests and n-triples tests.
16:57:44 <AndyS> We need to give people time to execute the tests and report.
16:58:03 <sandro> gkellogg: We might have done that for Turtle.
16:58:20 <sandro> guus: Make sure it's done by the end of the week, if it's being done.
16:58:46 <sandro> action: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests
16:58:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-325 - Make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [on Gregg Kellogg - due 2013-11-13].
16:59:12 <sandro> topic: Turtle CR Comments
16:59:18 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR
16:59:24 <AndyS> GT
16:59:33 <AndyS> GTG - bye
17:00:08 <sandro> ericP: (summarizes ...)
17:02:43 <sandro> guus: I made a page for CR comments, and moved our deferred comments there.
17:03:17 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
17:03:32 <sandro> gavinc: Comment on N-Triples....    is that a new comment on CR?
17:03:41 <sandro> eric: Yes?
17:04:20 <sandro> gavinc: (Please dont do UTF8)
17:04:21 <Guus> CR comments page for the 5 RDF 1.1 docs: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_comments_Concepts_Semantics_TriG_N-Triples_N-Quads
17:05:54 <Arnaud> I need to drop off
17:05:59 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:06:32 <gavinc> tah dah http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_Comments
17:07:15 <sandro> topic: RDFS
17:07:40 <sandro> guus: The plan is to make RDF Schema be an Edited Recommendation, so no technical content changes.
17:07:56 <sandro> .. yesterday I did a respec version
17:09:01 <sandro> .. not sure about the diff
17:09:02 <gavinc> Best bet that I've tried in the past was produce HTML from both, and then use pandoc to produce Markdown from both, and then compare those ;)
17:09:24 <sandro> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-schema/index.html
17:09:46 <sandro> eric: Do we want Turtle to go to PR early?
17:09:49 <sandro> guus: No.
17:10:33 <sandro> guus: Should we add the new datatypes in the RDF namespace?
17:10:46 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
17:10:47 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
17:10:50 <sandro> ... rdf:langString and rdf:HTML
17:11:07 <sandro> sandro: I think that's fine since it's just including changes made elsewhere.
17:11:25 <sandro> ted: I have a user who wants language tag and datatype
17:11:33 <sandro> sandro: not allowed to do that in xml schema
17:11:46 <sandro> guus: Should we make plainLiteral as being obsolete?
17:11:57 <sandro> guus: editors?
17:12:28 <sandro> sandro: No, it can't be obsolete because it's used by OWL 2
17:12:56 <sandro> sandro: and can't even be 'deprecated' if other stuff we don't think people should use can't be deprecated.
17:13:03 <sandro> ADJOURN
17:13:03 <Zakim> -Souri
17:13:05 <Zakim> -PatH
17:13:09 <Zakim> -David_Wood
17:13:10 <Zakim> -TallTed
17:13:10 <Zakim> -pfps
17:13:11 <Zakim> -AZ
17:13:11 <Zakim> -gkellogg
17:13:13 <Zakim> -GavinC
17:13:13 <Zakim> -EricP
17:13:14 <Zakim> -markus
17:13:15 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:13:16 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:13:27 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
17:13:27 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:13:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri, TallTed
17:13:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:13:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:13:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:13:36 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [1]
17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-05-31
17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists [2]
17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-10-11
17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document [3]
17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-00
17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document [4]
17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-21-07
17:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [5]
17:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-58-46
17:13:44 <TallTed> s/who wants language tag and datatype/who says Jena is producing "string"@lang^^xsd:string which isn't clearly forbidden in current writing/