edit

RDF Working Group

Minutes of 24 July 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Charles Greer, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Baker, Yves Raimond
Chair
David Wood
Scribe
Sandro Hawke
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
15:00:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/24-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/24-rdf-wg-irc

15:00:34 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF

David Wood: Zakim, this will be RDF

15:00:34 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

15:00:42 <davidwood> chair: David Wood
15:00:47 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

15:00:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see bhyland

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bhyland

15:00:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, gkellogg, PatH, gavinc, davidwood, TallTed, AndyS, trackbot, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP, mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, gkellogg, PatH, gavinc, davidwood, TallTed, AndyS, trackbot, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP, mischat

15:00:54 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me

David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me

15:00:55 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:00:58 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aaaa

15:01:27 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

15:01:34 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aaaa is me

15:01:35 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

15:01:36 <gkellogg> zakam, I a ??P9

Gregg Kellogg: zakam, I a ??P9

15:01:49 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P9

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P9

15:01:49 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

15:02:03 <AndyS> Agenda request -- process -- Status of the Turtle test suite - ready to announce? Actions for that?

Andy Seaborne: Agenda request -- process -- Status of the Turtle test suite - ready to announce? Actions for that?

15:02:15 <davidwood> ack

David Wood: ack

15:02:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:02:47 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

15:02:47 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:03:05 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:03:50 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

15:04:26 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P15 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P15 is me

15:04:26 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:04:32 <AndyS> How many telecons until the end of the WG?  14 and whatever in Dec?

Andy Seaborne: How many telecons until the end of the WG? 14 and whatever in Dec?

15:04:53 <sandro> counting down the minutes, Andy?  :-)

Sandro Hawke: counting down the minutes, Andy? :-)

15:05:25 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:05:37 <sandro> scribe: sandro

(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)

15:06:00 <Zakim> + +1.707.874.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.874.aabb

15:06:01 <AndyS> sandro - you raised the issue of dealing with comments and timescale.

Andy Seaborne: sandro - you raised the issue of dealing with comments and timescale.

15:06:23 <sandro> indeed.

indeed.

15:06:38 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:06:45 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 10 July telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 10 July telecon:

15:06:45 <davidwood>

David Wood:

15:06:45 <davidwood>    https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-07-10

David Wood: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-07-10

15:07:08 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 10 July telecon:   https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-07-10

David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 10 July telecon: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-07-10

15:07:49 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:08:12 <gavinc> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-07-10#NTriples_and_NQuads has a resolution, but was not recorded

Gavin Carothers: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-07-10#NTriples_and_NQuads has a resolution, but was not recorded

15:08:24 <gavinc> Original PROPOSED: The WG will pursue N-Triples/N-Quads as a Rec instead of a Note

Gavin Carothers: Original PROPOSED: The WG will pursue N-Triples/N-Quads as a Rec instead of a Note

15:08:49 <davidwood> Sandro is fixing.  Good catch, Gavin.

David Wood: Sandro is fixing. Good catch, Gavin.

15:09:06 <davidwood> Sandro has repaired the minutes

David Wood: Sandro has repaired the minutes

15:09:11 <davidwood> Review of action items

David Wood: Review of action items

15:09:11 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

15:09:11 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

15:09:18 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:09:24 <sandro> okay, minutes from last week fixed to include RESOLTION on N-Quads and N_triplles being Rec-Track.

okay, minutes from last week fixed to include RESOLTION on N-Quads and N_triplles being Rec-Track.

15:09:33 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:09:33 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

15:09:35 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:09:35 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:09:48 <sandro> action-256?

ACTION-256?

15:09:48 <trackbot> ACTION-256 -- Gavin Carothers to link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts -- due 2013-05-01 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-256 -- Gavin Carothers to link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts -- due 2013-05-01 -- OPEN

15:09:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/256

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/256

15:09:49 <davidwood> ACTION-256?

David Wood: ACTION-256?

15:09:49 <trackbot> ACTION-256 -- Gavin Carothers to link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts -- due 2013-05-01 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-256 -- Gavin Carothers to link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts -- due 2013-05-01 -- OPEN

15:09:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/256

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/256

15:09:56 <sandro> close ACTION-256

close ACTION-256

15:09:56 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-256 Link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-256 Link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts.

15:10:10 <sandro> issue-23?

ISSUE-23?

15:10:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- open

15:10:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/23

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/23

15:10:38 <davidwood> ACTION-270?

David Wood: ACTION-270?

15:10:38 <trackbot> ACTION-270 -- Gavin Carothers to write resolution text for issue-23 -- due 2013-06-12 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-270 -- Gavin Carothers to write resolution text for ISSUE-23 -- due 2013-06-12 -- OPEN

15:10:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/270

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/270

15:10:51 <sandro> davidwood: Gavin, how would you like to proceed on this?

David Wood: Gavin, how would you like to proceed on this?

15:11:16 <sandro> gavin: I'm happy to keep writing this until it doesn't change any more.

Gavin Carothers: I'm happy to keep writing this until it doesn't change any more.

15:11:29 <AndyS> ptr?

Andy Seaborne: ptr?

15:11:47 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

15:12:00 <sandro> gavin: Inside the TriG spec

Gavin Carothers: Inside the TriG spec

15:12:09 <sandro> gavin: taking it out of Concepts

Gavin Carothers: taking it out of Concepts

15:12:28 <sandro> gavin: never actually in Concepts, but might have gone there.

Gavin Carothers: never actually in Concepts, but might have gone there.

15:13:03 <sandro> action-280?

ACTION-280?

15:13:03 <trackbot> ACTION-280 -- Gavin Carothers to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-280 -- Gavin Carothers to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN

15:13:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/280

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/280

15:13:19 <sandro> gavin: Not done yet.

Gavin Carothers: Not done yet.

15:13:44 <sandro> andy: Do we have a resolution saying "This is the test suite:

Andy Seaborne: Do we have a resolution saying "This is the test suite:

15:14:00 <sandro> gkellogg: We need to send something to implementors

Gregg Kellogg: We need to send something to implementors

15:14:23 <sandro> AndyS: Yes, but we need to be clear what's stable and we're telling them.

Andy Seaborne: Yes, but we need to be clear what's stable and we're telling them.

15:14:29 <sandro> davidwood: next telecon is Aug 7

David Wood: next telecon is Aug 7

15:14:46 <gavinc> ARGH, can someone update http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite?

Gavin Carothers: ARGH, can someone update http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite?

15:15:26 <sandro> gavin, can you email me new text for that page, and I'll change it.

gavin, can you email me new text for that page, and I'll change it.

15:15:36 <davidwood> Topic: Semantics and Concepts

1. Semantics and Concepts

15:15:39 <davidwood> Published as LC: http://www.w3.org/News/2013#entry-9896

David Wood: Published as LC: http://www.w3.org/News/2013#entry-9896

15:15:51 <sandro> davidwood: Both documents published as Last Call!!!

David Wood: Both documents published as Last Call!!!

15:15:55 <sandro> +1

+1

15:15:56 <sandro> :-)

:-)

15:16:04 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to provide sandro text for http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite

Gavin Carothers: ACTION Gavin to provide sandro text for http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite

15:16:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-281 - Provide sandro text for http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-07-31].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-281 - Provide sandro text for http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ to NOT say it's the test suite [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-07-31].

15:16:19 <sandro> davidwood: Call for Exclusions went out

David Wood: Call for Exclusions went out

15:16:50 <sandro> PatH: Do I need to worry about that?

Patrick Hayes: Do I need to worry about that?

15:17:27 <sandro> sandro: Only if you have patents on technologies essential for implementing these specs.

Sandro Hawke: Only if you have patents on technologies essential for implementing these specs.

15:17:33 <davidwood> Topic: TriG / N-Triples / N-Quads

2. TriG / N-Triples / N-Quads

15:18:00 <sandro> yvesr: yes, people are.

Yves Raimond: yes, people are.

15:18:58 <davidwood> Topic: Status of the Turtle test suite

3. Status of the Turtle test suite

15:19:12 <davidwood> AndyS: ready to announce? Actions for that?

Andy Seaborne: ready to announce? Actions for that? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:19:41 <sandro> AndyS: I'd expected to see an announcement

Andy Seaborne: I'd expected to see an announcement

15:20:11 <sandro> gkellogg: People are discovering it on their own.

Gregg Kellogg: People are discovering it on their own.

15:20:36 <sandro> gavinc: I think the action is on me is to announce

Gavin Carothers: I think the action is on me is to announce

15:20:47 <sandro> gavinc: I have an action to announce this.   I haven't done it yet.

Gavin Carothers: I have an action to announce this. I haven't done it yet.

15:20:53 <sandro> action-280?

ACTION-280?

15:20:54 <trackbot> ACTION-280 -- Gavin Carothers to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-280 -- Gavin Carothers to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN

15:20:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/280

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/280

15:21:08 <sandro> davidwood: Happy Andy?

David Wood: Happy Andy?

15:21:19 <sandro> AndyS: I'd have expected it to come from Chairs.

Andy Seaborne: I'd have expected it to come from Chairs.

15:21:26 <sandro> davidwood: I'd prefer Gavin do it, please.

David Wood: I'd prefer Gavin do it, please.

15:21:40 <sandro> gavinc: I'll do it this week.

Gavin Carothers: I'll do it this week.

15:22:27 <sandro> gkellogg: Re comments on public-rdf-comments.    Okay for me to ack comments?

Gregg Kellogg: Re comments on public-rdf-comments. Okay for me to ack comments?

15:22:32 <sandro> sandro: How about 1 reply?

Sandro Hawke: How about 1 reply?

15:22:34 <AndyS> surely editors can reply for the routine

Andy Seaborne: surely editors can reply for the routine

15:22:44 <sandro> davidwood: Lets say: don't get into a long thread without talking to us.

David Wood: Lets say: don't get into a long thread without talking to us.

15:22:58 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:23:01 <sandro> davidwood: everyone cool with that?

David Wood: everyone cool with that?

15:23:02 <sandro> +1

+1

15:23:17 <PatH> The editors decide.

Patrick Hayes: The editors decide.

15:23:29 <PatH> sorry, the chairs decide

Patrick Hayes: sorry, the chairs decide

15:23:45 <sandro> gavin: jeremy's thread is in danger of this

Gavin Carothers: jeremy's thread is in danger of this

15:24:03 <sandro> sandro: I'm trying to keep Jeremy on www-archive

Sandro Hawke: I'm trying to keep Jeremy on www-archive

15:24:24 <sandro> davidwood: I propose we have a chairs to talk about Jeremy's thread soon.

David Wood: I propose we have a chairs to talk about Jeremy's thread soon.

15:25:14 <sandro> sandro: maybe after this call we can talk about it?

Sandro Hawke: maybe after this call we can talk about it?

15:25:26 <sandro> AndyS: maybe Sandro summarize to WG list?

Andy Seaborne: maybe Sandro summarize to WG list?

15:25:34 <sandro> sandro: Good idea, but I don't understand it yet.

Sandro Hawke: Good idea, but I don't understand it yet.

15:26:00 <sandro> sandro: I'll endeavor to do so.

Sandro Hawke: I'll endeavor to do so.

15:26:25 <AndyS> topic: TriG / N-Triples / N-Quads

4. TriG / N-Triples / N-Quads

15:26:34 <sandro> davidwood: Status of Turtle test suite: Gavin will announce shortly.

David Wood: Status of Turtle test suite: Gavin will announce shortly.

15:26:47 <davidwood> N-Quads as subset of TriG?

David Wood: N-Quads as subset of TriG?

15:26:47 <davidwood>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jul/0171.html

David Wood: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jul/0171.html

15:26:47 <sandro> davidwood: Some proposals

David Wood: Some proposals

15:27:29 <gkellogg> sandro: it would be better if the test format (N-Quads) be a subset of the full language (TriG)

Sandro Hawke: it would be better if the test format (N-Quads) be a subset of the full language (TriG) [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:27:38 <sandro> GRAPH <g> { s p o }

GRAPH <g> { s p o }

15:27:47 <gavinc> -1 to naming a line oriented "TriG" N-Quads

Gavin Carothers: -1 to naming a line oriented "TriG" N-Quads

15:28:01 <gkellogg> … shouldn't be called N-Quads, thought

Gregg Kellogg: … shouldn't be called N-Quads, though

15:28:09 <gkellogg> s/thought/though/
15:28:17 <gkellogg> andys: different content type?

Andy Seaborne: different content type? [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:28:37 <gkellogg> sandro: N-Triples has a different type than Turtle, so this should too.

Sandro Hawke: N-Triples has a different type than Turtle, so this should too. [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:28:54 <gkellogg> andys: each profile is a different content-type?

Andy Seaborne: each profile is a different content-type? [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:29:10 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

15:29:16 <gkellogg> … "profile" indicates there's some difference.

Gregg Kellogg: … "profile" indicates there's some difference.

15:29:17 <markus> zakim, ??P6 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P6 is me

15:29:17 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

15:29:51 <gkellogg> sandro: sub-types of other content types haven't worked so well.

Sandro Hawke: sub-types of other content types haven't worked so well. [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:30:06 <gkellogg> … However, the different types could be mapped to the same parser.

Gregg Kellogg: … However, the different types could be mapped to the same parser.

15:30:23 <gkellogg> ericp: people will commonly use the same parser when they can.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: people will commonly use the same parser when they can. [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:30:37 <PatH> +q

Patrick Hayes: +q

15:30:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:31:02 <gkellogg> … populating the media-type space, and mapping them to parsers are separate issues.

Gregg Kellogg: … populating the media-type space, and mapping them to parsers are separate issues.

15:31:17 <gkellogg> andys: the other thing would be to use the same content-type for all.

Andy Seaborne: the other thing would be to use the same content-type for all. [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:31:18 <yvesr> Zakim: [IPcaller] is me
15:31:27 <sandro> andy: Why have different media type for sublanguages?

Andy Seaborne: Why have different media type for sublanguages?

15:31:31 <yvesr> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

15:31:31 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:31:39 <gkellogg> ericp: the advantage is that there are subsets that can be parsed separately (e.g. Awk).

Eric Prud'hommeaux: the advantage is that there are subsets that can be parsed separately (e.g. Awk). [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:31:49 <sandro> AndyS: Is this N-Quads.

Andy Seaborne: Is this N-Quads.

15:32:21 <sandro> AndyS: dbpedia publishes n-quads.   it's out there in use.

Andy Seaborne: dbpedia publishes n-quads. it's out there in use.

15:32:38 <sandro> ericP: yes, but it's a small number of producers and would be an easy change.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: yes, but it's a small number of producers and would be an easy change.

15:32:55 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:32:55 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

15:32:56 <sandro> AndyS: data.gov.uk does, too

Andy Seaborne: data.gov.uk does, too

15:33:19 <sandro> eric: Now you're talking not about the naming, but about compatibilty with N-Quads.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Now you're talking not about the naming, but about compatibilty with N-Quads.

15:33:35 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

15:34:08 <sandro> AndyS: What problem is being solved?

Andy Seaborne: What problem is being solved?

15:34:14 <sandro> Sandro: too many languages

Sandro Hawke: too many languages

15:34:45 <sandro> eric: 2 lines of code to map to a parser, or several hundred lines to write an n-quads parser

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 2 lines of code to map to a parser, or several hundred lines to write an n-quads parser

15:34:59 <sandro> AndyS: I think it's 20 lines, since the tokenizer is the same.

Andy Seaborne: I think it's 20 lines, since the tokenizer is the same.

15:35:35 <gkellogg> sandro: in my mind, it's about brains, not machines. I don't want people to have to keep things separate in their heads, when things are so close together.

Sandro Hawke: in my mind, it's about brains, not machines. I don't want people to have to keep things separate in their heads, when things are so close together. [ Scribe Assist by Gregg Kellogg ]

15:35:48 <sandro> q?

q?

15:35:49 <gkellogg> … People can understand line-mode formats differently.

Gregg Kellogg: … People can understand line-mode formats differently.

15:35:50 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:37:03 <sandro> I don't think it helps the community for us to standardize on lots of things.

I don't think it helps the community for us to standardize on lots of things.

15:37:35 <gavinc> THERE isn't a difference: "A N-Quad document defines an RDF dataset composed of RDF graphs composed of a set of RDF triples. The statement production produces a triple defined by the terms constructed for subject, predicate and object. This RDF triple is added to the graph labeled by the production graphLabel, if no graphLabel is present the triple is added to the RDF datasets default graph."

Gavin Carothers: THERE isn't a difference: "A N-Quad document defines an RDF dataset composed of RDF graphs composed of a set of RDF triples. The statement production produces a triple defined by the terms constructed for subject, predicate and object. This RDF triple is added to the graph labeled by the production graphLabel, if no graphLabel is present the triple is added to the RDF datasets default graph."

15:38:24 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:38:24 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:38:52 <AndyS> nquads is not a test format. It's a DB dump format.

Andy Seaborne: nquads is not a test format. It's a DB dump format.

15:39:32 <gavinc> "Some RDF dataset implementations do not track empty named graphs. Applications can avoid interoperability issues by not ascribing importance to the presence or absence of empty named graphs."

Gavin Carothers: "Some RDF dataset implementations do not track empty named graphs. Applications can avoid interoperability issues by not ascribing importance to the presence or absence of empty named graphs."

15:40:56 <davidwood> ack gkellogg

David Wood: ack gkellogg

15:41:28 <sandro> gkellogg: I find some value to having different media types for subsets.   My simpler parsers are an order of magnitude faster.

Gregg Kellogg: I find some value to having different media types for subsets. My simpler parsers are an order of magnitude faster.

15:41:57 <sandro> gkellogg: also freebase parser is much faster, with no media type

Gregg Kellogg: also freebase parser is much faster, with no media type

15:42:33 <sandro> gkellogg: Should RDFa-Lite be a different format.    We decided it should NOT be.    There is no such thing as an RDFa-Lite parser.

Gregg Kellogg: Should RDFa-Lite be a different format. We decided it should NOT be. There is no such thing as an RDFa-Lite parser.

15:42:47 <sandro> q?

q?

15:43:13 <sandro> gkellogg: alas, HTML Validator only does RDFa-Lite.

Gregg Kellogg: alas, HTML Validator only does RDFa-Lite.

15:43:17 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:43:19 <sandro> sandro: yeah!

Sandro Hawke: yeah!

15:43:27 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:43:34 <PatH> gives a whole new meaning to "dog food".

Patrick Hayes: gives a whole new meaning to "dog food".

15:43:58 <sandro> gkellogg: Having a Line-Mode TriG Subset, flagged in media type parameter, would be useful.

Gregg Kellogg: Having a Line-Mode TriG Subset, flagged in media type parameter, would be useful.

15:44:17 <gavinc> Currently we have 2 resolutions saying we intend to publish N-Quads AS N-Quads and N-Triples as N-Triples

Gavin Carothers: Currently we have 2 resolutions saying we intend to publish N-Quads AS N-Quads and N-Triples as N-Triples

15:46:14 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:47:09 <AndyS> http://wiki.dbpedia.org/Downloads38

Andy Seaborne: http://wiki.dbpedia.org/Downloads38

15:47:41 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:47:50 <gavinc> JSON-LD uses N-Quads, just about every SPARQL database supports N-Quads, all the RDF UI editors support N-Quads, every RDF library supports N-Quads

Gavin Carothers: JSON-LD uses N-Quads, just about every SPARQL database supports N-Quads, all the RDF UI editors support N-Quads, every RDF library supports N-Quads

15:49:15 <yvesr> nquads get used a lot at the BBC for backing up/exchanging datasets between systems

Yves Raimond: nquads get used a lot at the BBC for backing up/exchanging datasets between systems

15:50:00 <ericP> when we talk about "simplicity", i think we need to think about the person learning and considering RDF

Eric Prud'hommeaux: when we talk about "simplicity", i think we need to think about the person learning and considering RDF

15:50:59 <ericP> for that person, a new format is waay more complex than a profile of a format that they have to learn anyways

Eric Prud'hommeaux: for that person, a new format is waay more complex than a profile of a format that they have to learn anyways

15:52:04 <sandro> sandro: I'll change my vote on N-Quads as a Rec to -0.9.   I don't think N-Quads should be a Rec.     But if everyone wants it, whatever.

Sandro Hawke: I'll change my vote on N-Quads as a Rec to -0.9. I don't think N-Quads should be a Rec. But if everyone wants it, whatever.

15:52:49 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:52:49 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

15:54:03 <sandro> sandro: Should we be making a new Recommendation for something we don't think people should be using?

Sandro Hawke: Should we be making a new Recommendation for something we don't think people should be using?

15:54:07 <ericP> document it, sure, but a Note is perfect for that

Eric Prud'hommeaux: document it, sure, but a Note is perfect for that

15:54:36 <sandro> sandro: If it's just documenting current practice, us a Note.      But I'm not going to fight about this.

Sandro Hawke: If it's just documenting current practice, us a Note. But I'm not going to fight about this.

15:55:26 <sandro> gavin: We want the Rec Track to make sure we have the feedback from the community that we've got it document right.

Gavin Carothers: We want the Rec Track to make sure we have the feedback from the community that we've got it document right.

15:55:37 <sandro> sandro: I'm letting go of this issue on N-Quads.

Sandro Hawke: I'm letting go of this issue on N-Quads.

15:55:51 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:55:52 <PatH> Sorry I lost the IRC

Patrick Hayes: Sorry I lost the IRC

15:55:56 <sandro> topic: TriG

5. TriG

15:55:56 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:56:18 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:56:18 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:57:04 <sandro> AndyS: I see an opportunity to push TriG as a more general format.    Cambridge Semantics uses it heavily internally.    But I don't see it used in the wild very much.   So I suggest documentin TriG and create a new language, with a new name which has graphs.

Andy Seaborne: I see an opportunity to push TriG as a more general format. Cambridge Semantics uses it heavily internally. But I don't see it used in the wild very much. So I suggest documentin TriG and create a new language, with a new name which has graphs.

15:57:11 <sandro> q?

q?

15:57:13 <sandro> q+

q+

15:57:25 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:59:00 <sandro> sandro:  So are we talking "TurtleG" which is Turtle plus (1) inline { } graphs and (2) GRAPH <> { }

Sandro Hawke: So are we talking "TurtleG" which is Turtle plus (1) inline { } graphs and (2) GRAPH <> { }

15:59:24 <sandro> gkellogg: default graph followed by a named graph hard to parse

Gregg Kellogg: default graph followed by a named graph hard to parse

15:59:43 <sandro> AndyS: not that hard.     well, it's a pain, but it's doable.

Andy Seaborne: not that hard. well, it's a pain, but it's doable.

16:01:09 <sandro> gavin: Maybe leave out @-stuff

Gavin Carothers: Maybe leave out @-stuff

16:01:26 <sandro> davidwood: Anyone worried about plethora of syntaxes?

David Wood: Anyone worried about plethora of syntaxes?

16:01:39 <PatH> I am worried with Sandro, the issue is real.

Patrick Hayes: I am worried with Sandro, the issue is real.

16:01:58 <PatH> too many syntaxes

Patrick Hayes: too many syntaxes

16:02:23 <sandro> gavinc: This would probably mean TriG is closer to old TriG, if we want.

Gavin Carothers: This would probably mean TriG is closer to old TriG, if we want.

16:02:30 <markus> me too

Markus Lanthaler: me too

16:02:41 <sandro> andy: Notes go into TR space.

Andy Seaborne: Notes go into TR space.

16:03:03 <sandro> sandro: Member or Team submissions are an alternative.

Sandro Hawke: Member or Team submissions are an alternative.

16:03:08 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/trig/...

Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/trig/...

16:04:10 <AndyS> q+ (after this segment)

Andy Seaborne: q+ (after this segment)

16:04:25 <AndyS> q+ after this segment

Andy Seaborne: q+ after this segment

16:05:00 <sandro> sandro: I like Turtle and TurtleG from a marketing perspective

Sandro Hawke: I like Turtle and TurtleG from a marketing perspective

16:05:27 <AndyS> hence not GRAPH but :-

Andy Seaborne: hence not GRAPH but :-

16:05:54 <sandro> sandro: I like the idea of saying TurtleG is only for datasets using certain semantic constraints (that blank node graph names denote their graphs).

Sandro Hawke: I like the idea of saying TurtleG is only for datasets using certain semantic constraints (that blank node graph names denote their graphs).

16:05:57 <AndyS> <g> :- { s p o } is denote

Andy Seaborne: <g> :- { s p o } is denote

16:06:02 <sandro> pat: sounds reasonable.

Patrick Hayes: sounds reasonable.

16:06:27 <PatH> Well, actually its not *reasonable* but its better than nothing.

Patrick Hayes: Well, actually its not *reasonable* but its better than nothing.

16:07:23 <gavinc> STRAWPOLL: Design new language TurtleG and recommend it (and recommend it to LDP)

STRAWPOLL: Design new language TurtleG and recommend it (and recommend it to LDP)

16:07:55 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:07:57 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

16:08:05 <PatH> FOr the record, my semantic concern is that if this encodes an extra sematnic constraint, hen the dataset must have *something* in it which records this extra semantics. That could be a speical triple, for example.

Patrick Hayes: FOr the record, my semantic concern is that if this encodes an extra sematnic constraint, hen the dataset must have *something* in it which records this extra semantics. That could be a speical triple, for example.

16:09:03 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:09:19 <sandro> +1

+1

16:09:28 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:09:30 <gkellogg> (and +1 to PatH)

Gregg Kellogg: (and +1 to PatH)

16:09:41 <TallTed> +0.9

Ted Thibodeau: +0.9

16:09:43 <sandro> eric: +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:09:44 <davidwood> +0

David Wood: +0

16:09:48 <cgreer> +0

Charles Greer: +0

16:09:50 <AndyS> 0 and iff Trig is documented

Andy Seaborne: 0 and iff Trig is documented

16:09:53 <sandro> (I do have concerns about the timeline)

(I do have concerns about the timeline)

16:09:54 <markus> +0.9, iff that means that the other languages don't become RECs

Markus Lanthaler: +0.9, iff that means that the other languages don't become RECs

16:09:58 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:10:00 <Souri> 0

Souripriya Das: 0

16:10:18 <gavinc> +0

Gavin Carothers: +0

16:10:24 <tbaker> +0

Thomas Baker: +0

16:10:47 <sandro> andy: I see this as a way forward.

Andy Seaborne: I see this as a way forward.

16:11:16 <sandro> andy: I'm concerned about the short time line of this decision.   It might be messing up some opportunty.

Andy Seaborne: I'm concerned about the short time line of this decision. It might be messing up some opportunty.

16:11:43 <sandro> sandro: How can we mitigate that risk.

Sandro Hawke: How can we mitigate that risk.

16:11:47 <PatH> Not doing this is also taking a decision which has potential risks.

Patrick Hayes: Not doing this is also taking a decision which has potential risks.

16:12:32 <sandro> andy: TriG as a Note or Rec

Andy Seaborne: TriG as a Note or Rec

16:13:07 <yvesr> +0

Yves Raimond: +0

16:13:33 <sandro> [ a :Update; :delete {...}; :insert {... } ]

[ a :Update; :delete {...}; :insert {... } ]

16:14:44 <sandro> andy: There a re streaming problems with this.

Andy Seaborne: There a re streaming problems with this.

16:14:54 <PatH> What is 'a' here? A dataset or some kind of datastructure? If the latter, what is it called?

Patrick Hayes: What is 'a' here? A dataset or some kind of datastructure? If the latter, what is it called?

16:15:29 <PatH> You can't update a dataset.

Patrick Hayes: You can't update a dataset.

16:15:38 <gavinc> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

16:16:01 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

16:16:05 <sandro> andy: That isn't a motivating example for me.

Andy Seaborne: That isn't a motivating example for me.

16:16:13 <AndyS> N3 is submission - hence "documented" at the below TR level

Andy Seaborne: N3 is submission - hence "documented" at the below TR level

16:17:19 <sandro> gavinc: Do what the market is doing.    Designing a new language us reasonable, but not in this timescale.

Gavin Carothers: Do what the market is doing. Designing a new language us reasonable, but not in this timescale.

16:17:19 <sandro> q+

q+

16:18:23 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

16:20:01 <sandro> gavin: I would formally object to adding inline graphs to TriG.

Gavin Carothers: I would formally object to adding inline graphs to TriG.

16:20:25 <sandro> gkellogg: We don't have to call it TriG.   We could call it TurtleG or whatever.

Gregg Kellogg: We don't have to call it TriG. We could call it TurtleG or whatever.

16:20:51 <sandro> gkellogg: So stick with TriG as is, with bnode names and graph keyword.

Gregg Kellogg: So stick with TriG as is, with bnode names and graph keyword.

16:21:23 <sandro> davidwood: A lot of languages change during standardization and don't change names.

David Wood: A lot of languages change during standardization and don't change names.

16:21:41 <sandro> davidwood: We're out of time.   Any last minute business.

David Wood: We're out of time. Any last minute business.

16:22:00 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:22:02 <Zakim> - +1.707.874.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.707.874.aabb

16:22:04 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:22:04 <sandro> sandro: Gavin's formal objection is sufficient for me.  I'll let the matter drop.

Sandro Hawke: Gavin's formal objection is sufficient for me. I'll let the matter drop.

16:22:06 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

16:22:09 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:22:12 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:22:45 <sandro> gavin: This is just the Step Too Far.

Gavin Carothers: This is just the Step Too Far.

16:22:59 <sandro> gavin: It turns out parsing empty graphs was the hardest problem.

Gavin Carothers: It turns out parsing empty graphs was the hardest problem.

16:23:58 <sandro> gavin: Most TriG parsers no-op empty graphs -- they don't record it, so it doesn't end up in the data set.

Gavin Carothers: Most TriG parsers no-op empty graphs -- they don't record it, so it doesn't end up in the data set.

16:26:32 <AndyS> ADJOURNED

Andy Seaborne: ADJOURNED

16:26:32 <sandro> andy: The first case to be made to the community is that quoting graphs matters.

Andy Seaborne: The first case to be made to the community is that quoting graphs matters.

16:29:23 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

16:31:35 <AndyS> "# to end of line."

Andy Seaborne: "# to end of line."

16:39:02 <AndyS> GTG

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Andy Seaborne: GTG

16:40:03 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:45:33 <Zakim> -TallTed

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

16:45:34 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:45:35 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

16:45:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:45:35 <Zakim> Attendees were davidwood, +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, gkellogg, AndyS, Sandro, yvesr, PatH, +1.707.874.aabb, Souri, EricP, TallTed, markus

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were davidwood, +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, gkellogg, AndyS, Sandro, yvesr, PatH, +1.707.874.aabb, Souri, EricP, TallTed, markus



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