15:29:53 <Helena> pgroth: provenance access and query document

Paul Groth: provenance access and query document ←

15:30:47 <Helena> GK: drafted 2 proposals ofr an http inteface for prov discovery

Graham Klyne: drafted 2 proposals ofr an http inteface for prov discovery ←

15:31:01 <Helena> GK: first was not the interface developers were hoping to see

Graham Klyne: first was not the interface developers were hoping to see ←

15:31:21 <Helena> GK: second proposal goes back to first principles and treats it as a REST interface

Graham Klyne: second proposal goes back to first principles and treats it as a REST interface ←

15:31:51 <Helena> GK: adding "concepts" section/review and refine terminology (converging on the model document term.)

Graham Klyne: adding "concepts" section/review and refine terminology (converging on the model document term.) ←

15:32:08 <Helena> GK: added discussion about the issues of discovering provenance

Graham Klyne: added discussion about the issues of discovering provenance ←

15:32:42 <Helena> GK: link header -> recommend use of the anchor parameter

Graham Klyne: link header -> recommend use of the anchor parameter ←

15:33:31 <Helena> pgroth: first version did not allow the define the "entity"

Paul Groth: first version did not allow the define the "entity" ←

15:33:47 <Helena> pgroth: added the notion of target as well as a resource within the set of concepts

Paul Groth: added the notion of target as well as a resource within the set of concepts ←

15:34:05 <Helena> pgroth: that is the anchor or url that can be used to find the provenance of something

Paul Groth: that is the anchor or url that can be used to find the provenance of something ←

15:34:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:34:15 <Yogesh> q+

Yogesh Simmhan: q+ ←

15:34:18 <GK> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/provenance-access.html

Graham Klyne: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/provenance-access.html ←

15:34:30 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←

15:34:41 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (10%), Yogesh (89%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (10%), Yogesh (89%) ←

15:35:17 <Helena> Yogesh: multiple provenance URI and target URI -> will provenance uri have provenance about the target uri?

Yogesh Simmhan: multiple provenance URI and target URI -> will provenance uri have provenance about the target uri? ←

15:35:31 <Helena> pgroth: they could or could not have that infor

Paul Groth: they could or could not have that infor ←

15:35:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:35:53 <Helena> pgroth: provenance information may or may not have provenance about a target uri

Paul Groth: provenance information may or may not have provenance about a target uri ←

15:35:57 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh ←

15:36:16 <Helena> Yogesh: does it make sense to define which provenance uri describe which target uri?

Yogesh Simmhan: does it make sense to define which provenance uri describe which target uri? ←

15:36:19 <GK> q+

Graham Klyne: q+ ←

15:36:29 <Helena> pgroth: how to bind a target to a particular set of proveance information?

Paul Groth: how to bind a target to a particular set of proveance information? ←

15:36:45 <Helena> pgroth: particulalry because a target could show up in many provenance info URI

Paul Groth: particulalry because a target could show up in many provenance info URI ←

15:36:50 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK ←

15:36:52 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q- ←

15:37:09 <MacTed> bad psuedotriple --     { <provenanceURI> :primaryTopic <targetURI> }

Ted Thibodeau: bad psuedotriple -- { <provenanceURI> :primaryTopic <targetURI> } ←

15:37:23 <Helena> GK:  html link element is hard to use because does not work like anchor

Graham Klyne: html link element is hard to use because does not work like anchor ←

15:37:43 <stain> @pgroth, I think that makes sense, it's up to the provenance itself to say something about the target's provenance

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @pgroth, I think that makes sense, it's up to the provenance itself to say something about the target's provenance ←

15:37:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←

15:38:12 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame ←

15:38:14 <Yogesh> q+

Yogesh Simmhan: q+ ←

15:38:17 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aall

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.858.210.aall ←

15:38:20 <MacTed> or ... { <provenanceURI> :describes <targetURI> }

Ted Thibodeau: or ... { <provenanceURI> :describes <targetURI> } ←

15:38:20 <MacTed> or ... { <targetURI> :describedBy <provenanceURI> }

Ted Thibodeau: or ... { <targetURI> :describedBy <provenanceURI> } ←

15:38:57 <stain> vu

Stian Soiland-Reyes: vu ←

15:39:00 <Helena> khalidbelhajjame: provenance doc show say how to access the provenance of a particular entity -> would also allow connecting resource with entity

Khalid Belhajjame: provenance doc show say how to access the provenance of a particular entity -> would also allow connecting resource with entity ←

15:39:18 <Helena> pgroth: addressing the common case for access

Paul Groth: addressing the common case for access ←

15:39:29 <Helena> pgroth: in html -> what's the provenance of the page?

Paul Groth: in html -> what's the provenance of the page? ←

15:39:47 <Helena> pgroth: need to make that compatible with the notions from the model

Paul Groth: need to make that compatible with the notions from the model ←

15:39:51 <stain> but is <provenanceURI> allowed to talk about <provenanceURI> even if it does not say how it was made? Like <provenanceURI> pil:usedBy :someProcess

Stian Soiland-Reyes: but is <provenanceURI> allowed to talk about <provenanceURI> even if it does not say how it was made? Like <provenanceURI> pil:usedBy :someProcess ←

15:39:56 <Helena> pgroth: not clear in that case that a resource is an entity

Paul Groth: not clear in that case that a resource is an entity ←

15:39:56 <GK> (Expectation that the provenance itself would be explicit about what it applies to.)

Graham Klyne: (Expectation that the provenance itself would be explicit about what it applies to.) ←

15:40:30 <Helena> pgroth: html page could be a entity (target uri)

Paul Groth: html page could be a entity (target uri) ←

15:40:40 <GK> I already noted I think we need to add examples to make this area clearer.

Graham Klyne: I already noted I think we need to add examples to make this area clearer. ←

15:40:54 <satya> sorry I did not understand - What is the difference between resource and entity?

Satya Sahoo: sorry I did not understand - What is the difference between resource and entity? ←

15:41:07 <pgroth> zakim, who's noisy?

Paul Groth: zakim, who's noisy? ←

15:41:17 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), GK (4%), khalidbelhajjame (28%), +1.512.524.aaii (5%)

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), GK (4%), khalidbelhajjame (28%), +1.512.524.aaii (5%) ←

15:41:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:41:57 <Helena> Yogesh: notion of resource in the access document -> should be raised as an issue with the conceptual model; the vocabulary was not sufficient to describe how to access provenance

Yogesh Simmhan: notion of resource in the access document -> should be raised as an issue with the conceptual model; the vocabulary was not sufficient to describe how to access provenance ←

15:42:04 <Helena> pgroth: that's not the role of the model

Paul Groth: that's not the role of the model ←

15:42:13 <GK> I think khalid has a point... I think we need to clarify what we're trying to say and revisit.

Graham Klyne: I think khalid has a point... I think we need to clarify what we're trying to say and revisit. ←

15:42:13 <satya> I agree with your point Khalid - but I am trying to understand why are we differentiating between resource and entity?

Satya Sahoo: I agree with your point Khalid - but I am trying to understand why are we differentiating between resource and entity? ←

15:42:28 <Helena> Yogesh: had to use new notion "resource" to describe how to access provenance of things

Yogesh Simmhan: had to use new notion "resource" to describe how to access provenance of things ←

15:42:32 <stain>  I believe "resource" in PAQ doc is just a normal web resource, right?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I believe "resource" in PAQ doc is just a normal web resource, right? ←

15:42:38 <MacTed> q?

Ted Thibodeau: q? ←

15:42:42 <Helena> pgroth: need to connect to web architecture; use web architecture terms

Paul Groth: need to connect to web architecture; use web architecture terms ←

15:42:42 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←

15:42:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←

15:42:50 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←

15:43:05 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh ←

15:43:25 <Helena> Yogesh: why use of target in http header (instead of anchor)?

Yogesh Simmhan: why use of target in http header (instead of anchor)? ←

15:43:32 <satya> Following on Khalid's point, can't we model web resource as type of entity?

Satya Sahoo: Following on Khalid's point, can't we model web resource as type of entity? ←

15:44:13 <MacTed> +1 satya (that's what my queue+ is about...)

Ted Thibodeau: +1 satya (that's what my queue+ is about...) ←

15:44:39 <Reza_BFar> Another option would be to create an indirection layer between a web resource and an entity and use something like XSL/XSLT to specify possible transformations as an extension... though this adds complexity which would be undesirable.

Reza B'Far: Another option would be to create an indirection layer between a web resource and an entity and use something like XSL/XSLT to specify possible transformations as an extension... though this adds complexity which would be undesirable. ←

15:44:57 <Helena> call a concept instead of a target?

call a context instead of a target? ←

15:45:37 <GK> s/concept/context/

15:45:37 <Helena> pgroth: reusing terminology from http specification, need ot make sure they "mean" what they "say"

Paul Groth: reusing terminology from http specification, need ot make sure they "mean" what they "say" ←

15:45:38 <Reza_BFar> +1 on terminology from Paul.

Reza B'Far: +1 on terminology from Paul. ←

15:45:51 <GK> HTTP uses "anchor" IIRC

Graham Klyne: HTTP uses "anchor" IIRC ←

15:45:54 <Helena> DGarijo: http uses target in the wrong way

Daniel Garijo: http uses target in the wrong way ←

15:46:20 <Helena> MacTed: a web resource is a resource; a subclass of an entity

Ted Thibodeau: a web resource is a resource; a subclass of an entity ←

15:46:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Jim

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 for Jim ←

15:46:28 <Helena> MacTed: conceptual framework MUST maintain that!

Ted Thibodeau: conceptual framework MUST maintain that! ←

15:46:30 <GK> How is resource a subclass of entity?

Graham Klyne: How is resource a subclass of entity? ←

15:46:44 <Helena> MacTed: if we dont' treat it as so, we break everything

Ted Thibodeau: if we dont' treat it as so, we break everything ←

15:46:47 <GK> A rsource is a thing that can be named

Graham Klyne: A rsource is a thing that can be named ←

15:47:02 <DGarijo> @Helena I wasn't the one talking :)

Daniel Garijo: @Helena I wasn't the one talking :) ←

15:47:04 <Helena> MacTed: an entity may be of any type of class (e.g. web reousrce is an entity IF it can be named)

Ted Thibodeau: an entity may be of any type of class (e.g. web reousrce is an entity IF it can be named) ←

15:47:06 <GK> All of those entoties are also resources.

Graham Klyne: All of those entoties are also resources. ←

15:47:24 <Helena> MacTed: provenance is not just about where a web page comes from

Ted Thibodeau: provenance is not just about where a web page comes from ←

15:47:34 <GK> I think we have crossed wires here.  Not sure where right now.

Graham Klyne: I think we have crossed wires here. Not sure where right now. ←

15:47:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:47:53 <Helena> MacTed: e.g. a picture on a usb stick is not a web resource, but it does have provenance

Ted Thibodeau: e.g. a picture on a usb stick is not a web resource, but it does have provenance ←

15:48:12 <Helena> pgroth: provenance model document describes "entity"

Paul Groth: provenance model document describes "entity" ←

15:48:15 <GK> I agree with most of what @MacTed said, except as noted...

Graham Klyne: I agree with most of what @MacTed said, except as noted... ←

15:48:22 <Helena> pgroth: in terms of the provenance model document

Paul Groth: in terms of the provenance model document ←

15:48:24 <Curt> back to BOB vs. entity?

Curt Tilmes: back to BOB vs. entity? ←

15:49:17 <Helena> q+

q+ ←

15:49:22 <pgroth> ack MacTed

Paul Groth: ack MacTed ←

15:49:38 <GK> I agree with @MacTed --  it's not the *web* resource that's special or distinct here...

Graham Klyne: I agree with @MacTed -- it's not the *web* resource that's special or distinct here... ←

15:49:45 <GK> (per se)

Graham Klyne: (per se) ←

15:50:03 <Helena> MacTed: provenance of entities is intertwined

Ted Thibodeau: provenance of entities is intertwined ←

15:50:13 <Helena> MacTed: provenance should NOT be just about web resources

Ted Thibodeau: provenance should NOT be just about web resources ←

15:50:25 <Helena> MacTed: provenacne document should allow that

Ted Thibodeau: provenacne document should allow that ←

15:50:31 <pgroth> ack Helena

Paul Groth: ack Helena ←

15:50:50 <jcheney> I thought we all agreed previously that "provenance should NOT be just about web resources"

James Cheney: I thought we all agreed previously that "provenance should NOT be just about web resources" ←

15:51:06 <jcheney> (or at least it was generally the consensus)

James Cheney: (or at least it was generally the consensus) ←

15:51:35 <GK> @jcheney yes, I agree - and I think this discussion has become crossed if that's how it sounds

Graham Klyne: @jcheney yes, I agree - and I think this discussion has become crossed if that's how it sounds ←

15:52:16 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:52:18 <GK> q+ to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document

Graham Klyne: q+ to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document ←

15:52:25 <satya> Lena: Why should entity be different in query and access document from provenance model?

Helena Deus: Why should entity be different in query and access document from provenance model? [ Scribe Assist by Satya Sahoo ] ←

15:52:32 <khalidbelhajjame> @paul, the provenoce model does not use resource, PAQ does

Khalid Belhajjame: @paul, the provenoce model does not use resource, PAQ does ←

15:52:35 <GK> Sorry hunting mute button

Graham Klyne: Sorry hunting mute button ←

15:52:47 <satya> @GK :)

Satya Sahoo: @GK :) ←

15:54:09 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←

15:54:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:54:26 <Reza_BFar> I agree with Paul on that the treatment in Query is different than the Model.  The overwhelming use-case, IMHO, of how you "Query" a provenance provider will be through some http related interface hence lending itself to URI

Reza B'Far: I agree with Paul on that the treatment in Query is different than the Model. The overwhelming use-case, IMHO, of how you "Query" a provenance provider will be through some http related interface hence lending itself to URI ←

15:54:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:54:38 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK ←

15:54:38 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document ←

15:54:45 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q- ←

15:55:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←

15:55:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←

15:55:23 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+ ←

<pgroth> TOPIC: Shortcuts and extensions to the provenance model

<pgroth> Summary: No current comments. Members were encouraged to comment on this proposal.

15:55:26 <pgroth>   http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions

15:55:27 <Helena> pgroth: propose shortcuts and extensions added to the provenance model document

15:55:36 <pgroth> ack satya

15:55:37 <GK> ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource

15:55:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - And graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [on Paul Groth - due 2011-08-18].

15:56:18 <Zakim> - +1.714.454.aakk

15:56:30 <stain> which points are those..?

15:56:40 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aall

15:56:44 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/71

15:57:29 <smiles> q+

15:57:56 <smiles> q-

15:57:56 <Helena> pgroth: minimal list of what is useful to have (e.g. something like attribution)

15:58:42 <pgroth> q?

15:58:52 <pgroth> q?

15:59:16 <satya> will add comments to mailing list thread

15:59:44 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aaii

15:59:47 <Zakim> -satya

15:59:47 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

15:59:48 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aaee

15:59:49 <Zakim> -Paulo

15:59:50 <Zakim> -MacTed

15:59:52 <Zakim> -DGarijo

15:59:54 <Zakim> -jcheney

15:59:56 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

15:59:56 <Zakim> -kai

15:59:58 <Zakim> -??P6

16:00:00 <Zakim> -Yogesh

16:00:02 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

16:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:00:02 <Zakim> -smiles

16:00:04 <Zakim> -Curt

16:00:08 <Zakim> -??P30

16:00:09 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon

16:00:09 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

16:00:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:00:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

16:00:11 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-actions.rdf :

16:00:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model  [1]

16:00:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc#T15-19-38

16:00:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [2]

16:00:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc#T15-55-37

16:00:15 <Zakim> -??P41

16:00:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, GK, +1.213.290.aaaa, Yogesh, Curt, +1.937.343.aacc, stain, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, Paulo, jcheney,