last week's minutes were approved.
the poll during the week indicated that PIL and PAST were the key contenders, with 6 and 5 votes respectively. Submit your name suggestions if you don't like these! The plan is to choose a name by mid-september, in time for the FPWD. We should keep in mind that the name should work for a data model, an ontology, and access/query mechanisms.
Graham told us that a new version of the document was being released. In terms of timetable, editors will be away 6-20 September. The aim is to release a "pre-final" version by Sep 6, to be reviewed in their absence, with final version released by end of September.
Satya reported back on the design of the provenance ontology. It was noted that progress on the ontology is dependent on progress on the model. Editors will be available during the summer period.
Paolo reported on the provenance model document. A revised version will be released by Monday, to be reviewed during editor's absence (most of the remaining part of August). Editors are attempting to synthesize solutions following email discussions about issues raised, and close them, pending review. We also confirmed that, following a vote during the week, the term BOB is replaced by Entity, in this new version of the document. The idea of a primer was discussed: while such a document is highly desirable, it was felt that the model is not stable enough to write a primer. It was suggested that developing the Data Journalism example in full, would be a step forward.
We continued our discussion on the scope of a formal semantics, trying to identify what differentiates it from the OWL formalization. James drafted a wiki page, suggesting issues that the formal semantics could tackle, and which cannot be addressed by the OWL formalization. Group members are invited to contribute their views on this page.
14:44:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-prov-irc ←
14:44:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:44:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:44:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:44:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:44:23 <trackbot> Date: 04 August 2011
14:44:30 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:44:30 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes ←
14:44:53 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.04
14:45:02 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:45:18 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:45:58 <Luc> Regrets: Deborah McGuinness
14:52:07 <Luc> Scribe: Christine
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
(Scribe set to Christine Runnegar)
14:52:27 <Luc> Topic: Admin
Summary: last week's minutes were approved.
<luc>Summary: last week's minutes were approved.
14:52:53 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:52:59 <Zakim> +??P33
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33 ←
14:53:12 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P33 is me
Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P33 is me ←
14:53:12 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
14:53:28 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
14:53:48 <Zakim> +??P42
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42 ←
14:53:57 <Paolo> zakim, ??P42 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P42 is me ←
14:53:57 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
14:54:47 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
14:55:14 <Zakim> +??P42
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42 ←
14:55:19 <Luc> zakim, ??P42 is me
Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P42 is me ←
14:55:19 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it ←
14:55:26 <Luc> Paolo, you must be ??P34
Luc Moreau: Paolo, you must be ??P34 ←
14:56:07 <Paolo> zakim, ??P34
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P34 ←
14:56:09 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P34', Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??P34', Paolo ←
14:56:12 <Paolo> zakim, ??P34 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P34 is me ←
14:56:12 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
14:57:04 <Zakim> +Curt
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt ←
14:59:59 <Zakim> +??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20 ←
15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:01:35 <Zakim> +??P53
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P53 ←
15:01:36 <jcheney> zakim, ??P17 is me
James Cheney: zakim, ??P17 is me ←
15:01:39 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it ←
15:01:53 <Zakim> +??P57
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P57 ←
15:01:55 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P53 is me
Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P53 is me ←
15:01:59 <kai> zakim, ??P57 is me.
Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P57 is me. ←
15:02:15 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it ←
15:02:18 <Christine> [Discussion of the agenda]
[Discussion of the agenda] ←
15:02:28 <Zakim> +kai; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it ←
15:02:36 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aaaa ←
15:02:37 <Christine> No additional agenda items
No additional agenda items ←
15:02:38 <Zakim> +SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens ←
15:02:40 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aabb ←
15:02:41 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-28
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-28 ←
15:02:44 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aacc ←
15:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.714.454.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.714.454.aadd ←
15:02:52 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:02:52 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
15:02:54 <Zakim> +??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←
15:02:54 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:02:55 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:02:55 <Christine> Item 1 of agenda - to approve the minutes of the last telecon
Item 1 of agenda - to approve the minutes of the last telecon ←
15:02:56 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:02:56 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:03:00 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aaee ←
15:03:02 <olaf> +1
Olaf Hartig: +1 ←
15:03:05 <dcorsar> +1
David Corsar: +1 ←
15:03:09 <JimMyers> +1
James Myers: +1 ←
15:03:09 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
15:03:11 <Edoardo> +1
Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti: +1 ←
15:03:27 <kai> +1
Kai Eckert: +1 ←
15:03:32 <olaf> zakim, aacc is me
Olaf Hartig: zakim, aacc is me ←
15:03:37 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:03:46 <Luc> Accepted: last week's teleconference minutes.
RESOLVED: last week's teleconference minutes. ←
15:04:00 <Zakim> +olaf; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it ←
15:04:04 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
15:04:09 <Christine> Item 2 of agenda - review outstanding items
Item 2 of agenda - review outstanding items ←
15:04:30 <Zakim> +??P62
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P62 ←
15:04:31 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:04:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed ←
15:04:35 <satya> zakim, 1.216.368.aaaa is me
Satya Sahoo: zakim, 1.216.368.aaaa is me ←
15:04:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is me ←
15:04:45 <GK1> zakim, ??P62 is me (I think)
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P62 is me (I think) ←
15:04:55 <Zakim> sorry, satya, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.368.aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, satya, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.368.aaaa' ←
15:04:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:04:59 <Christine> need to follow up to see if new questionnaire is being produced
need to follow up to see if new questionnaire is being produced ←
15:04:59 <MacTed> Zakim, MacTed is OpenLink_Software
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, MacTed is OpenLink_Software ←
15:05:03 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P62 is me (I think)', GK1
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??P62 is me (I think)', GK1 ←
15:05:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:05:06 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:05:08 <Christine> pgroth to follow up to see how this is progressing
pgroth to follow up to see how this is progressing ←
15:05:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it ←
15:05:11 <Luc> Topic: Name suggestions
Summary: the poll during the week indicated that PIL and PAST were the key contenders, with 6 and 5 votes respectively. Submit your name suggestions if you don't like these! The plan is to choose a name by mid-september, in time for the FPWD. We should keep in mind that the name should work for a data model, an ontology, and access/query mechanisms.
<luc>Summary: the poll during the week indicated that PIL and PAST were the key contenders, with 6 and 5 votes respectively. Submit your name suggestions if you don't like these! The plan is to choose a name by mid-september, in time for the FPWD. We should keep in mind that the name should work for a data model, an ontology, and access/query mechanisms.
15:05:11 <satya> zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me
Satya Sahoo: zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me ←
15:05:13 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:05:15 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:05:17 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:05:24 <Zakim> +satya; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it ←
15:05:24 <GK1> zakim, ??P62 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P62 is me ←
15:05:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh ←
15:05:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, ??P20, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, satya, +1.518.276.aabb, SamCoppens, olaf, +1.714.454.aadd, ??P28, +49.302.093.aaee, ??P62,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, ??P20, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, satya, +1.518.276.aabb, SamCoppens, olaf, +1.714.454.aadd, ??P28, +49.302.093.aaee, ??P62, ←
15:05:35 <Zakim> ... MacTed (muted), Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: ... MacTed (muted), Yogesh ←
15:05:37 <Christine> Item 3 of agenda - the name for the standard
Item 3 of agenda - the name for the standard ←
15:05:56 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:05:59 <Christine> Luc: pgroth circulated a form to express views
Luc Moreau: pgroth circulated a form to express views ←
15:06:04 <Zakim> +GK1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK1; got it ←
15:06:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Yogesh, Reza_BFar, JimMyers, olaf, GK1_, kai, smiles, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, Christine, tlebo, GK1, SamCoppens, Edoardo, dcorsar, Vinh, Curt, Paolo, satya, pgroth,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Yogesh, Reza_BFar, JimMyers, olaf, GK1_, kai, smiles, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, Christine, tlebo, GK1, SamCoppens, Edoardo, dcorsar, Vinh, Curt, Paolo, satya, pgroth, ←
15:06:15 <Zakim> ... Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, sandro, trackbot ←
15:06:50 <Christine> pgroth: 16 responses - 2 biggest PIL (6 votes) PAS (5 votes) 1 vote for ..
Paul Groth: 16 responses - 2 biggest PIL (6 votes) PAS (5 votes) 1 vote for .. ←
15:06:58 <Reza_BFar> I didn't vote yet, but +1 for PIL
Reza B'Far: I didn't vote yet, but +1 for PIL ←
15:07:11 <Christine> Luc: Is it representative?
Luc Moreau: Is it representative? ←
15:07:24 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:07:29 <Christine> pgroth: Could vote now or take another vote
Paul Groth: Could vote now or take another vote ←
15:07:44 <Zakim> +??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←
15:07:47 <Paolo> I think the appeal of PAS is that it is actually PAST
Paolo Missier: I think the appeal of PAS is that it is actually PAST ←
15:07:51 <Christine> Luc: Concern about voting now is that a lot of people are on holiday
Luc Moreau: Concern about voting now is that a lot of people are on holiday ←
15:07:53 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
15:08:04 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:08:06 <Christine> Luc: Graham also suggested another 2 or 3 names which could be considered
Luc Moreau: Graham also suggested another 2 or 3 names which could be considered ←
15:08:08 <satya> I also suggesed one - added to wiki
Satya Sahoo: I also suggesed one - added to wiki ←
15:08:09 <Zakim> + +1.915.603.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.915.603.aaff ←
15:08:11 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P12 is me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P12 is me ←
15:08:11 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it ←
15:08:27 <GK1> +1 to have a name by FPWD, not not urgent until then
Graham Klyne: +1 to have a name by FPWD, not not urgent until then ←
15:08:31 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.343.aagg ←
15:08:33 <Christine> pgroth: We need a name before going to public draft. Can leave poll open and close later.
Paul Groth: We need a name before going to public draft. Can leave poll open and close later. ←
15:08:47 <GK1> Maybe re-run the vote ...?
Graham Klyne: Maybe re-run the vote ...? ←
15:08:48 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:08:53 <GK1> (offline)
Graham Klyne: (offline) ←
15:08:53 <Christine> Luc: Agree. Put on agenda in September for decision by mid-September.
Luc Moreau: Agree. Put on agenda in September for decision by mid-September. ←
15:09:12 <Vinh> +1.915.603.aaff is me
Vinh Nguyen: +1.915.603.aaff is me ←
15:09:14 <Christine> pgroth: agree and will add other proposals and encourage people to vote
Paul Groth: agree and will add other proposals and encourage people to vote ←
15:09:38 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:09:41 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:09:48 <Luc> ack pao
Luc Moreau: ack pao ←
15:10:05 <Christine> Paolo: PIL has the term "language" in it - be aware
Paolo Missier: PIL has the term "language" in it - be aware ←
15:10:10 <satya> right
Satya Sahoo: right ←
15:10:12 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:10:21 <Luc> ack satya
Luc Moreau: ack satya ←
15:10:32 <Christine> Satya: agree with Paolo re concern on "language"
Satya Sahoo: agree with Paolo re concern on "language" ←
15:10:40 <Christine> pgroth: add proposals to the wiki page
Paul Groth: add proposals to the wiki page ←
15:11:13 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:11:19 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Access Document
Summary: Graham told us that a new version of the document was being released. In terms of timetable, editors will be away 6-20 September. The aim is to release a "pre-final" version by Sep 6, to be reviewed in their absence, with final version released by end of September.
<luc>Summary: Graham told us that a new version of the document was being released. In terms of timetable, editors will be away 6-20 September. The aim is to release a "pre-final" version by Sep 6, to be reviewed in their absence, with final version released by end of September.
15:11:21 <Christine> Luc: "language" is problematic - need to explain names on wiki page
Luc Moreau: "language" is problematic - need to explain names on wiki page ←
15:11:43 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:11:49 <GK1> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/a055a7987aa7/paq/provenance-access.html
Graham Klyne: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/a055a7987aa7/paq/provenance-access.html ←
15:12:48 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:13:27 <Christine> Graham: since last week, a lot of comments came in. I have been through Olaf's editorial comments and updated text accordingly. One issue defered - is it provenance information or another term. Also working on mercurial to include a proposal for simple HTTP interface for provenance discovery.
Graham Klyne: since last week, a lot of comments came in. I have been through Olaf's editorial comments and updated text accordingly. One issue defered - is it provenance information or another term. Also working on mercurial to include a proposal for simple HTTP interface for provenance discovery. ←
15:14:09 <Christine> Graham: Will need a little more work but thrust is visible from the proposal.
Graham Klyne: Will need a little more work but thrust is visible from the proposal. ←
15:14:14 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:15:05 <Christine> Lu and Graham: [discussion of timing and availability]
Lu and Graham: [discussion of timing and availability] ←
15:15:21 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:15:26 <Christine> Luc: first working draft by end of Sept?
Luc Moreau: first working draft by end of Sept? ←
15:16:38 <Christine> Luc: then final revision?
Luc Moreau: then final revision? ←
15:16:40 <khalidbelhajjame> end of August
Khalid Belhajjame: end of August ←
15:16:43 <khalidbelhajjame> ?
15:17:09 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:17:48 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:17:54 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:18:04 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.302.093.aaee (23%), GK1 (20%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.302.093.aaee (23%), GK1 (20%) ←
15:18:33 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Ontology
Summary: Satya reported back on the design of the provenance ontology. It was noted that progress on the ontology is dependent on progress on the model. Editors will be available during the summer period.
<Luc>Summary: Satya reported back on the design of the provenance ontology. It was noted that progress on the ontology is dependent on progress on the model. Editors will be available during the summer period.
15:18:39 <MacTed> (whoever's breathing heavy in their headset... please note that you're causing other people's speech to drop out)
Ted Thibodeau: (whoever's breathing heavy in their headset... please note that you're causing other people's speech to drop out) ←
15:19:24 <Christine> Satya: [reporting on progress] - meeting on Monday with volunteers - are working on conceptual model and ontology
Satya Sahoo: [reporting on progress] - meeting on Monday with volunteers - are working on conceptual model and ontology ←
15:19:43 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology
Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology ←
15:19:57 <satya> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html
Satya Sahoo: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html ←
15:20:23 <Christine> Satya: comment on whether agree or not with document
Satya Sahoo: comment on whether agree or not with document ←
15:20:54 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:21:11 <Christine> Satya: not clear - since defining with OWL ...what other entailments? .. are we going to add other provenance semantics to our work?
Satya Sahoo: not clear - since defining with OWL ...what other entailments? .. are we going to add other provenance semantics to our work? ←
15:21:48 <Christine> Luc: discuss later today. re transitive which you raised - why is not explained in OWL
Luc Moreau: discuss later today. re transitive which you raised - why is not explained in OWL ←
15:22:05 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:22:18 <Christine> Satya: no comments received on available documents
Satya Sahoo: no comments received on available documents ←
15:22:40 <khalidbelhajjame> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology
Khalid Belhajjame: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology ←
15:22:41 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology
Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology ←
15:22:47 <Paolo> well, the OWL file it opens well in my protege :-)
Paolo Missier: well, the OWL file it opens well in my protege :-) ←
15:22:48 <dgarijo> yes, it is the link I posted before
Daniel Garijo: yes, it is the link I posted before ←
15:22:49 <GK1> (I probably won't attempt to review the formal model until the main conceptual model document settles.)
Graham Klyne: (I probably won't attempt to review the formal model until the main conceptual model document settles.) ←
15:23:08 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:23:09 <dgarijo> @Paolo: Satya prepared it in Protege :)
Daniel Garijo: @Paolo: Satya prepared it in Protege :) ←
15:23:15 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:23:21 <Luc> ack paolo
Luc Moreau: ack paolo ←
15:23:53 <Christine> Paolo: Clear distinction of OWL as encoding model and as a language for defining the semantics
Paolo Missier: Clear distinction of OWL as encoding model and as a language for defining the semantics ←
15:24:31 <tlebo> +1 paolo's distinction on conceptual model's semantics vs. the semantics encoded in OWL.
Timothy Lebo: +1 paolo's distinction on conceptual model's semantics vs. the semantics encoded in OWL. ←
15:24:33 <GK1> q+ to say that using OWL for structural definition could be confusing
Graham Klyne: q+ to say that using OWL for structural definition could be confusing ←
15:24:45 <GK1> q- ... what Paolo is saying :)
Graham Klyne: q- ... what Paolo is saying :) ←
15:24:46 <Christine> Satya: quick answer - by defn - OWL has own semantics - can't avoid that
Satya Sahoo: quick answer - by defn - OWL has own semantics - can't avoid that ←
15:24:50 <GK1> q-
Graham Klyne: q- ←
15:25:08 <GK1> s./Paolo/Satya/ (sorry)
Graham Klyne: s./Paolo/Satya/ (sorry) ←
15:25:35 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:25:46 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
15:25:55 <Christine> Satya: making sure conceptual model is captured in ontology
Satya Sahoo: making sure conceptual model is captured in ontology ←
15:26:38 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:26:56 <Christine> Luc and Satya: discuss further outside call
Luc and Satya: discuss further outside call ←
15:27:19 <Christine> Luc: [discussing availability of editors]
Luc Moreau: [discussing availability of editors] ←
15:27:31 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:27:45 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Model Document
Summary: Paolo reported on the provenance model document. A revised version will be released by Monday, to be reviewed during editor's absence (most of the remaining part of August). Editors are attempting to synthesize solutions following email discussions about issues raised, and close them, pending review. We also confirmed that, following a vote during the week, the term BOB is replaced by Entity, in this new version of the document. The idea of a primer was discussed: while such a document is highly desirable, it was felt that the model is not stable enough to write a primer. It was suggested that developing the Data Journalism example in full, would be a step forward.
<luc>Summary: Paolo reported on the provenance model document. A revised version will be released by Monday, to be reviewed during editor's absence (most of the remaining part of August). Editors are attempting to synthesize solutions following email discussions about issues raised, and close them, pending review. We also confirmed that, following a vote during the week, the term BOB is replaced by Entity, in this new version of the document. The idea of a primer was discussed: while such a document is highly desirable, it was felt that the model is not stable enough to write a primer. It was suggested that developing the Data Journalism example in full, would be a step forward.
15:27:49 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html
Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html ←
15:28:01 <Christine> Paolo: link to latest version
Paolo Missier: link to latest version ←
15:28:30 <Christine> Paolo: more discussion on the list and some offlist - Luc did a good job of mapping issues to the document
Paolo Missier: more discussion on the list and some offlist - Luc did a good job of mapping issues to the document ←
15:29:24 <Christine> Paolo: a number of open issues - 2 main changes to document - issues now interleved in document - open/pending issues marked in document
Paolo Missier: a number of open issues - 2 main changes to document - issues now interleved in document - open/pending issues marked in document ←
15:30:29 <Christine> Paolo: with Luc - sections up to 5.3 have been reconsidered in view of the issues - can see the result
Paolo Missier: with Luc - sections up to 5.3 have been reconsidered in view of the issues - can see the result ←
15:31:16 <Christine> Luc: aim to have a new version by Monday night
Luc Moreau: aim to have a new version by Monday night ←
15:31:24 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:32:06 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:32:10 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:32:20 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:32:27 <Christine> Luc: we will continue working on doc in September
Luc Moreau: we will continue working on doc in September ←
15:32:56 <Christine> pgroth: Are we still discussing core definitions? How settled are the core concepts?
Paul Groth: Are we still discussing core definitions? How settled are the core concepts? ←
15:34:20 <GK1> I acknowledge that I need to come back with something approaching an evaluatable proposal.
Graham Klyne: I acknowledge that I need to come back with something approaching an evaluatable proposal. ←
15:34:27 <Christine> Luc: Difficult to answer. Issues have been raised regarding the core of the model.
Luc Moreau: Difficult to answer. Issues have been raised regarding the core of the model. ←
15:34:46 <pgroth> q+ to ask about "other concepts"
Paul Groth: q+ to ask about "other concepts" ←
15:34:54 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:34:56 <Luc> ack pg
Luc Moreau: ack pg ←
15:34:56 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts"
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts" ←
15:35:11 <pgroth> q+ to ask about "other concepts"
Paul Groth: q+ to ask about "other concepts" ←
15:35:13 <GK1> I came round to agree with transitivity of derivation.
Graham Klyne: I came round to agree with transitivity of derivation. ←
15:35:33 <Christine> Luc: For example. Transitivity is a difficult issue.
Luc Moreau: For example. Transitivity is a difficult issue. ←
15:35:59 <GK1> My main concern is the nature of "Entities".
Graham Klyne: My main concern is the nature of "Entities". ←
15:36:15 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←
15:36:31 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aaee ←
15:36:54 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:36:55 <Christine> SimonM: Are we intended to release anything in September? How might use the model? or the access document?
Simon Miles: Are we intended to release anything in September? How might use the model? or the access document? ←
15:37:05 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:37:10 <Christine> Luc: Good question - are they stable enough to write a primer?
Luc Moreau: Good question - are they stable enough to write a primer? ←
15:37:29 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aahh ←
15:37:38 <Christine> Luc: Did not commit to release primer by then
Luc Moreau: Did not commit to release primer by then ←
15:37:50 <Luc> ack smi
Luc Moreau: ack smi ←
15:37:58 <Paolo> I really believe the primer[model] should go hand in hand with the model conceptualization
Paolo Missier: I really believe the primer[model] should go hand in hand with the model conceptualization ←
15:38:13 <GK1> q+ to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places.
Graham Klyne: q+ to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places. ←
15:38:47 <Christine> pgroth: Don't think we can expect to have a draft primer for this - not enough bandwidth and not close enough to being finished - more to reach out to technical people
Paul Groth: Don't think we can expect to have a draft primer for this - not enough bandwidth and not close enough to being finished - more to reach out to technical people ←
15:38:49 <tlebo> @paolo "hand in hand" - interleaved within same document?
Timothy Lebo: @paolo "hand in hand" - interleaved within same document? ←
15:38:57 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:39:05 <Luc> ack satya
Luc Moreau: ack satya ←
15:39:06 <Christine> Luc: Could we express the model with alternate ways of encoding? not a primer in itself
Luc Moreau: Could we express the model with alternate ways of encoding? not a primer in itself ←
15:39:14 <Paolo> @tlebo -- no, rather meant just what Luc just said
Paolo Missier: @tlebo -- no, rather meant just what Luc just said ←
15:39:38 <Christine> Satya: Daniel mentioned - have concepts of location and time in ontology but no properties linking these concepts to entity
Satya Sahoo: Daniel mentioned - have concepts of location and time in ontology but no properties linking these concepts to entity ←
15:39:56 <Paolo> challenge the model with new examples where we are able to describe how the model is used in plain language
Paolo Missier: challenge the model with new examples where we are able to describe how the model is used in plain language ←
15:40:01 <dgarijo> it's true, I forgot to bring'em on here >.<
Daniel Garijo: it's true, I forgot to bring'em on here >.< ←
15:40:16 <Luc> ack pg
Luc Moreau: ack pg ←
15:40:16 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts"
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts" ←
15:40:51 <Christine> pgroth: Brought up an issue a month ago about particular concepts I thought were vital to have that may be able to expressed within current concepts of the model. Would like your view on that.
Paul Groth: Brought up an issue a month ago about particular concepts I thought were vital to have that may be able to expressed within current concepts of the model. Would like your view on that. ←
15:41:04 <Christine> pgroth: Things like attribution
Paul Groth: Things like attribution ←
15:41:12 <Zakim> -??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4 ←
15:41:46 <Paolo> Q?
Paolo Missier: Q? ←
15:41:50 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
15:41:53 <Christine> Luc: It is a good idea. The issue is raised in the document. A new section has been added. Hope to have something in it by Monday.
Luc Moreau: It is a good idea. The issue is raised in the document. A new section has been added. Hope to have something in it by Monday. ←
15:41:59 <jorn> zakim, ??p4 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p4 is me ←
15:41:59 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:42:13 <Zakim> - +1.714.454.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.714.454.aadd ←
15:42:15 <Luc> ack kh
Luc Moreau: ack kh ←
15:42:53 <Christine> Khalid: Would it help to priortise issues that are fixed to coverge more quickly on core issues such as transitivity.
Khalid Belhajjame: Would it help to priortise issues that are fixed to coverge more quickly on core issues such as transitivity. ←
15:43:23 <Christine> Luc: Paolo and I have tried to prioritise. Some natural selection on issues via email traffic.
Luc Moreau: Paolo and I have tried to prioritise. Some natural selection on issues via email traffic. ←
15:43:42 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:43:46 <Luc> ack pao
Luc Moreau: ack pao ←
15:43:49 <Christine> Luc: We hope to have proposals by Monday.
Luc Moreau: We hope to have proposals by Monday. ←
15:44:50 <satya> +1 for Paolo's point - I actually see the conceptual model as a primer
Satya Sahoo: +1 for Paolo's point - I actually see the conceptual model as a primer ←
15:44:50 <Christine> Paolo: Clarifying earlier comment. Need more examples [sound dropped out] ... we need some easy explanation of what we are trying to get at .. does not need to be released .. internal
Paolo Missier: Clarifying earlier comment. Need more examples [sound dropped out] ... we need some easy explanation of what we are trying to get at .. does not need to be released .. internal ←
15:44:55 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:46:25 <Christine> Graham: Comment cuts across primer and concept document - one problem I had when I was reviewing this - a lot of the language was over specialised even for a technical audience - implicit or tacit knowledge bound up in what was explained.
Graham Klyne: Comment cuts across primer and concept document - one problem I had when I was reviewing this - a lot of the language was over specialised even for a technical audience - implicit or tacit knowledge bound up in what was explained. ←
15:46:49 <Paolo> @GK +1
Paolo Missier: @GK +1 ←
15:46:51 <Luc> ack gk
Luc Moreau: ack gk ←
15:46:52 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places.
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places. ←
15:46:53 <Christine> Graham: Perhaps less specialised language document - to explain
Graham Klyne: Perhaps less specialised language document - to explain ←
15:47:07 <Luc> ack saty
Luc Moreau: ack saty ←
15:47:18 <Paulo> q+
15:47:20 <Christine> Satya: primer in the sense that Luc and Simon - aggregation on model and access?
Satya Sahoo: primer in the sense that Luc and Simon - aggregation on model and access? ←
15:47:31 <Zakim> -Curt
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt ←
15:47:39 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:47:48 <GK1> +1
Graham Klyne: +1 ←
15:47:49 <Christine> Satya: primer should only be done after closure on the models - otherwise premature
Satya Sahoo: primer should only be done after closure on the models - otherwise premature ←
15:48:33 <Christine> Paulo: Like the idea of challenging the model - doing this through issue 26
Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: Like the idea of challenging the model - doing this through ISSUE-26 ←
15:48:57 <Christine> Paulo: Looking for response to my issue by email
Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: Looking for response to my issue by email ←
15:48:58 <satya> Paolo/Paulo
Satya Sahoo: Paolo/Paulo ←
15:49:17 <Christine> [Scribe apologising for name]
[Scribe apologising for name] ←
15:49:50 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:49:53 <Luc> ack pau
Luc Moreau: ack pau ←
15:50:16 <Zakim> +Curt
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt ←
15:50:17 <Christine> Luc: vote during the week - entity was definitely leading
Luc Moreau: vote during the week - entity was definitely leading ←
15:50:30 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:50:37 <Christine> Luc: using "entity" for the document
Luc Moreau: using "entity" for the document ←
15:51:09 <Luc> Topic: Formal semantics
Summary: We continued our discussion on the scope of a formal semantics, trying to identify what differentiates it from the OWL formalization. James drafted a wiki page, suggesting issues that the formal semantics could tackle, and which cannot be addressed by the OWL formalization. Group members are invited to contribute their views on this page.
<luc>Summary: We continued our discussion on the scope of a formal semantics, trying to identify what differentiates it from the OWL formalization. James drafted a wiki page, suggesting issues that the formal semantics could tackle, and which cannot be addressed by the OWL formalization. Group members are invited to contribute their views on this page.
15:50:59 <Christine> Luc: formal semantics - would like to open the debate again and understand the scope of the semantics
Luc Moreau: formal semantics - would like to open the debate again and understand the scope of the semantics ←
15:52:04 <Christine> JamesC: As Satya mentioned, we discussed on Monday. Things such as transitivity.
James Cheney: As Satya mentioned, we discussed on Monday. Things such as transitivity. ←
15:52:18 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:52:37 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics
James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics ←
15:52:40 <Christine> JamesC: end result - some comments will be added to OWL ontology doc
James Cheney: end result - some comments will be added to OWL ontology doc ←
15:52:49 <satya> @James, can you please repeat the example - missed the issue sorry
Satya Sahoo: @James, can you please repeat the example - missed the issue sorry ←
15:53:32 <Christine> JamesC: In the meantime look at the wiki (see link)
James Cheney: In the meantime look at the wiki (see link) ←
15:54:28 <Christine> JamesC: various constraints mentioned in the document - simple one - [stating an order on data values related to class in OWL] - not sure if can be expressed
James Cheney: various constraints mentioned in the document - simple one - [stating an order on data values related to class in OWL] - not sure if can be expressed ←
15:55:07 <Christine> Satya: now looking at "source assertion" - exactly what I mean about entailments [?]
Satya Sahoo: now looking at "source assertion" - exactly what I mean about entailments [?] ←
15:55:59 <Christine> @Satya pls write your example for the minutes
@Satya pls write your example for the minutes ←
15:56:38 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:57:17 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:57:35 <Paulo> if look into the owl specification itself, we will see that they talk about entailment but also about consistency, equivalence, etc
Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: if look into the owl specification itself, we will see that they talk about entailment but also about consistency, equivalence, etc ←
15:57:52 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:58:03 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:58:18 <Christine> Luc: comments/suggestions for scoping semantics?
Luc Moreau: comments/suggestions for scoping semantics? ←
15:58:31 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
15:58:34 <satya> @James OWL2 direct semantics: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-direct-semantics/ was the document I was refering to
Satya Sahoo: @James OWL2 direct semantics: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-direct-semantics/ was the document I was refering to ←
15:58:53 <Christine> Paul; conceptual model should do what it needs to do for standardising services - should not constrain with what we can do in OWL
Paul; conceptual model should do what it needs to do for standardising services - should not constrain with what we can do in OWL ←
15:58:57 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:59:00 <Luc> ack pg
Luc Moreau: ack pg ←
15:59:08 <GK1> @paul +1
Graham Klyne: @paul +1 ←
15:59:09 <Christine> PauL; OWL seems to be working
PauL; OWL seems to be working ←
15:59:13 <satya> @Christine, sorry the example?
Satya Sahoo: @Christine, sorry the example? ←
16:00:07 <dgarijo> what about the rules? (some of them can be produced while we do the ontology, in RIFF, for instance)
Daniel Garijo: what about the rules? (some of them can be produced while we do the ontology, in RIFF, for instance) ←
16:00:10 <Christine> @satya - when you were talking about entailment - [perhaps someone else can help]
@satya - when you were talking about entailment - [perhaps someone else can help] ←
16:00:47 <GK1> q+ to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that
Graham Klyne: q+ to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that ←
16:01:03 <satya> @James, can we add a link to your page from the formal model wiki page created by TimL?
Satya Sahoo: @James, can we add a link to your page from the formal model wiki page created by TimL? ←
16:01:33 <dgarijo> @satya I think that will be a good idea.
Daniel Garijo: @satya I think that will be a good idea. ←
16:01:46 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:02:52 <Luc> ack GK
Luc Moreau: ack GK ←
16:02:52 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that ←
16:03:02 <Christine> .... Luc: agree with you - trying to gather requirements for formal semantics makes sense
.... Luc: agree with you - trying to gather requirements for formal semantics makes sense ←
16:03:13 <tlebo> I already added a reference to http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics from http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology#Initial_comments.2Fsuggestions_about_the_ontology and http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Model_Task_Force#Materials_discussing_Concepts
Timothy Lebo: I already added a reference to http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics from http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology#Initial_comments.2Fsuggestions_about_the_ontology and http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Model_Task_Force#Materials_discussing_Concepts ←
16:03:28 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens ←
16:03:36 <dgarijo> @tlebo nice!
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo nice! ←
16:03:55 <satya> @GK, agree with this approach
Satya Sahoo: @GK, agree with this approach ←
16:04:09 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:04:10 <Christine> Graham: if can identify inferences that are desired and then later as the other aspects of the formal semantic settle can see if are covered or not. Thinking of the discussion on transitivity and derviation.
Graham Klyne: if can identify inferences that are desired and then later as the other aspects of the formal semantic settle can see if are covered or not. Thinking of the discussion on transitivity and derviation. ←
16:04:31 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
16:04:43 <Luc> ack saty
Luc Moreau: ack saty ←
16:04:51 <Christine> Satya: what was the resolution?
Satya Sahoo: what was the resolution? ←
16:05:10 <Christine> Luc: my view is that we should keep it separate
Luc Moreau: my view is that we should keep it separate ←
16:05:30 <pgroth> we make the decision later
Paul Groth: we make the decision later ←
16:05:50 <Zakim> - +1.915.603.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.915.603.aaff ←
16:06:18 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:06:22 <GK1> I think I'm less interested in completeness; obviously want soundness :)
Graham Klyne: I think I'm less interested in completeness; obviously want soundness :) ←
16:06:38 <jcheney> q+
James Cheney: q+ ←
16:07:17 <GK1> @satya: auto verification - surely that's only for constraints expressible in OWL?
Graham Klyne: @satya: auto verification - surely that's only for constraints expressible in OWL? ←
16:07:36 <Luc> ack jch
Luc Moreau: ack jch ←
16:07:37 <khalidbelhajjame> do we need to make the decision now as to whether to have a separate formal (in the mathematical sense) semantics or not?
Khalid Belhajjame: do we need to make the decision now as to whether to have a separate formal (in the mathematical sense) semantics or not? ←
16:07:44 <satya> @GK yes agree
Satya Sahoo: @GK yes agree ←
16:08:03 <khalidbelhajjame> we can postopone that to later, when we have the OWL schema
Khalid Belhajjame: we can postopone that to later, when we have the OWL schema ←
16:08:42 <GK1> @jch +1
Graham Klyne: @jch +1 ←
16:08:57 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:09:08 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aahh ←
16:09:18 <satya> @James, agree that is why we are facing difficulty in encoding the conceptual model in OWL
Satya Sahoo: @James, agree that is why we are facing difficulty in encoding the conceptual model in OWL ←
16:09:37 <satya> since many of the concepts are still not well/stably defined
Satya Sahoo: since many of the concepts are still not well/stably defined ←
16:09:46 <GK1> Makes sense, but may be a tough call :)
Graham Klyne: Makes sense, but may be a tough call :) ←
16:09:51 <Zakim> -satya
Zakim IRC Bot: -satya ←
16:09:52 <Zakim> -olaf
Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf ←
16:09:53 <Zakim> -Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh ←
16:09:53 <Zakim> -??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4 ←
16:09:53 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aabb ←
16:09:54 <Zakim> -pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth ←
16:09:54 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame ←
16:09:57 <Zakim> -Curt
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt ←
16:09:58 <Zakim> -jcheney
Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney ←
16:10:00 <Zakim> -GK1
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK1 ←
16:10:02 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
16:10:04 <Zakim> -??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P28 ←
16:10:06 <Zakim> -??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P20 ←
16:10:08 <Zakim> -kai
Zakim IRC Bot: -kai ←
16:10:10 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:10:12 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:10:15 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:10:16 <Zakim> - +1.937.343.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.937.343.aagg ←
16:10:35 <satya> sorry Christine, I don't remember the example, we can leave it out of the mins?
Satya Sahoo: sorry Christine, I don't remember the example, we can leave it out of the mins? ←
16:11:02 <Zakim> -??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10 ←
16:11:04 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended ←
16:11:06 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, +1.714.454.aadd, +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, MacTed, satya,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, +1.714.454.aadd, +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, MacTed, satya, ←
16:11:09 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, GK1, +1.915.603.aaff, dgarijo, +1.937.343.aagg, +49.302.093.aahh, jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Yogesh, GK1, +1.915.603.aaff, dgarijo, +1.937.343.aagg, +49.302.093.aahh, jorn ←
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This revision (#3) generated 2011-08-05 08:17:07 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None