IRC log of prov on 2011-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:53:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:53:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov
14:53:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
14:53:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:53:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:19 [trackbot]
Date: 11 August 2011
14:53:22 [pgroth]
Zakim, this will be PROV
14:53:22 [Zakim]
ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:35 [Yogesh]
Yogesh has joined #prov
14:54:05 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:54:10 [pgroth]
Chair: Paul Groth
14:54:12 [Zakim]
14:54:20 [pgroth]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
14:54:20 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
14:54:47 [Zakim]
14:54:48 [pgroth]
Scribe: Ryan Golden
14:55:07 [pgroth]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:07 [GK]
zakim, ??p2 is me
14:55:08 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
14:55:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.213.290.aaaa
14:55:24 [pgroth]
14:55:34 [Curt]
Curt has joined #prov
14:55:55 [Yogesh]
zakim, +1.213.290 is me
14:55:56 [Zakim]
+Yogesh; got it
14:56:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.443.987.aabb
14:56:01 [pgroth]
Regrets: Christine Runnegar
14:56:29 [Curt]
zakim, +1.443.987.aabb is me
14:56:29 [Zakim]
+Curt; got it
14:57:17 [Zakim]
14:57:49 [stain]
stain has joined #prov
14:58:06 [stain]
not many today!
14:58:09 [khalidbelhajjame]
khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
14:58:44 [smiles]
smiles has joined #prov
14:59:24 [Zakim]
14:59:32 [stain]
Zakim: ??P34 is me
14:59:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.343.aacc
14:59:33 [Zakim]
14:59:39 [StephenCresswell]
StephenCresswell has joined #prov
14:59:40 [stain]
Zakim, ??P34 is me
14:59:40 [Zakim]
+stain; got it
14:59:55 [Paulo]
Paulo has joined #prov
14:59:56 [Edoardo]
Edoardo has joined #prov
15:00:01 [smiles]
zakim, ??P33 is me
15:00:02 [Zakim]
+smiles; got it
15:00:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.915.747.aadd
15:00:24 [Zakim]
15:00:31 [kai]
kai has joined #prov
15:00:34 [khalidbelhajjame]
zakim, ??P17 is me
15:00:34 [Zakim]
+khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:00:35 [Vinh]
zakim, 1.937.343.aacc is me
15:00:35 [Zakim]
sorry, Vinh, I do not recognize a party named '1.937.343.aacc'
15:00:39 [olaf]
olaf has joined #prov
15:00:44 [jcheney]
jcheney has joined #prov
15:01:01 [Vinh]
zakim, + +1.937.343.aacc is me
15:01:10 [stain]
stain has changed the topic to: (stain)
15:01:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+ +1.937.343.aacc is me', Vinh
15:01:20 [Zakim]
15:01:26 [kai]
zakim, ??P26 is me.
15:01:28 [Paulo]
zakim, +1.915.747.aadd is me
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
15:01:47 [Zakim]
+ +49.302.093.aaee
15:01:48 [Zakim]
+Paulo; got it
15:01:51 [JimM]
JimM has joined #prov
15:01:52 [Zakim]
- +1.937.343.aacc
15:02:02 [Zakim]
15:02:22 [jcheney]
zakim, ??p40 is me
15:02:31 [Zakim]
15:02:44 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
15:03:01 [satya]
satya has joined #prov
15:03:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.343.aaff
15:03:18 [stain]
Zakim, who is noisy?
15:03:22 [Vinh]
+1.937.343.aaff is me
15:03:40 [Zakim]
stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (54%), GK (7%), Yogesh (61%)
15:03:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.524.aagg
15:03:48 [Vinh]
zakim, +1.937.343.aaff is me
15:04:03 [Zakim]
+Vinh; got it
15:04:17 [Zakim]
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.368.aahh
15:04:34 [Lena]
Lena has joined #prov
15:04:39 [pgroth]
15:04:44 [Helena]
Helena has joined #prov
15:04:44 [pgroth]
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of 04 Aug telecon
15:04:53 [satya]
15:04:54 [Curt]
15:04:56 [jcheney]
15:04:58 [satya]
15:04:59 [kai]
15:05:00 [khalidbelhajjame]
15:05:02 [Yogesh]
15:05:04 [stain]
+1 (not there, but good)
15:05:06 [Zakim]
15:05:09 [smiles]
15:05:17 [khalidbelhajjame]
zakim, ??P17 is me
15:05:18 [Edoardo]
15:05:19 [pgroth]
Scribe: Helena Deus
15:05:28 [Zakim]
+khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:05:31 [satya]
zakim, +1.216.368.aahh is me
15:05:32 [StephenCresswell]
15:05:36 [Zakim]
+satya; got it
15:05:42 [olaf]
15:05:48 [GK]
15:05:54 [Zakim]
15:06:01 [MacTed]
Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software; got it
15:06:03 [Lena]
minutes approve
15:06:05 [Zakim]
- +1.512.524.aagg
15:06:10 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:10 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:06:14 [MacTed]
Zakim, mut eme
15:06:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mut eme', MacTed
15:06:16 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:06:16 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:06:24 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:06:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, GK, Yogesh, Curt, ??P30, stain, smiles, Paulo, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, jcheney, ??P41, Vinh, satya, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted)
15:06:26 [pgroth]
15:06:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Helena, Lena, satya, JimM, jcheney, olaf, kai, Edoardo, Paulo, StephenCresswell, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, stain, Curt, Yogesh, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Vinh, GK,
15:06:33 [Zakim]
... MacTed, trackbot, edsu
15:06:57 [pgroth]
15:07:00 [rgolden]
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15:07:22 [pgroth]
Helena: discussing stakeholder questionnaire
15:07:26 [Helena]
15:07:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.524.aaii
15:08:10 [stain]
Helena: Came across several concerns, need guidelines. Representation of provenance.
15:08:16 [pgroth]
thanks stain
15:08:45 [stain]
Helena: First basic description, second level more on how data was produced, but not everything, third level is complete provenance
15:09:13 [stain]
Helena: Use this to create unit test, not yet formulated.
15:09:32 [stain]
Helena: Need to contact existing stakeholders if it is OK to publish data
15:09:50 [pgroth]
15:09:54 [pgroth]
15:09:57 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:09:57 [satya]
15:10:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.210.aajj
15:10:09 [pgroth]
ack satya
15:10:13 [MacTed]
throwing a minor tweak (pre-formed answers) into the "may we share your free-text?" boilerplate...
15:10:33 [DGarijo]
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15:10:41 [pgroth]
15:10:45 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:10:46 [pgroth]
15:10:48 [stain]
Satya: Last bit of form asks 'ow do you produce provenance', should we also ask 'how do you collect provenance' ?
15:10:52 [Lena]
satya: should we also keep track of the tools are used to track provenance
15:11:28 [Zakim]
15:11:36 [pgroth]
15:11:37 [MacTed]
15:11:52 [pgroth]
15:11:54 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:11:54 [DGarijo]
Zakim, ??P54 is me
15:11:55 [satya]
ack pgroth
15:11:55 [Zakim]
+DGarijo; got it
15:12:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.714.454.aakk
15:13:03 [Reza_BFar]
Reza_BFar has joined #prov
15:13:12 [Lena]
satya: had model telco on monday
15:13:24 [Lena]
satya: adding query of example scenario
15:13:49 [Lena]
satya: adding diagrams to illustrate constructs of the ontology (help users to understand axioms in the ontology)
15:14:29 [satya]
15:15:02 [Lena]
satya: calling for comments on "roles"
15:15:12 [Lena]
satya: how should role be modelled in different scenarios?
15:15:16 [IlkayAltintas]
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15:15:19 [pgroth]
15:15:22 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:15:24 [pgroth]
15:15:30 [jcheney]
15:15:36 [smiles]
15:15:37 [pgroth]
ack jcheney
15:16:01 [satya]
James is referring to:
15:16:04 [Helena]
jcheney: went over owl document and identified properties that could be formalized in the ontology
15:16:44 [satya]
good point James! - I missed that point
15:17:05 [DGarijo]
15:17:41 [Helena]
jcheney: how to represent n-ary relationships in owl
15:19:00 [Helena]
pgroth: modify the provenance formal model using anchors
15:19:17 [GK]
Re n-ary relations:
15:19:38 [pgroth]
action: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model
15:19:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-34 - Put anchors into the Provenance Model [on James Cheney - due 2011-08-18].
15:19:42 [stain]
(but it does have anchors..? for instance)
15:19:55 [pgroth]
ack smiles
15:20:26 [DGarijo]
@GK wi didn't wat to declare the relationships as classes in the ontology
15:20:43 [DGarijo]
@GK that's why we have used another approach by Satya
15:21:19 [pgroth]
@james this should be identifying the html anchors in the provenance model to be used
15:21:21 [pgroth]
15:21:58 [DGarijo]
@GK I meant We didn't want, no Wi didn't wat...
15:22:23 [pgroth]
15:22:26 [Helena]
simon: location - what is it supposed to be? how should it be represented? formal model vs conceptual model inconsistencies
15:23:35 [khalidbelhajjame]
15:23:37 [khalidbelhajjame]
15:24:02 [IlkayAltintas]
How does the sensor working group identify location?
15:24:04 [Helena]
simon: location in the pil model can be defined by another standards?
15:24:13 [pgroth]
ack DGarijo
15:25:11 [stain]
15:25:15 [GK]
Thatwas *two* changes, wasn't it? Simple case "uses" -> "used". "Is used by" is also inverse relation.
15:25:22 [Helena]
DGarijo: should have "uses"relationship instead of "usedBy" -> from Luc's comment on the wiki
15:25:39 [stain] is in the past
15:27:01 [satya]
@Ilkay: I think the sensor incubator group? uses OGC term for location
15:27:14 [Helena]
pgroth: keep track of deviations between conceptual model and ontology
15:28:03 [pgroth]
15:28:13 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:28:21 [Zakim]
- +1.858.210.aajj
15:28:22 [pgroth]
ack khalidbelhajjame
15:28:25 [pgroth]
15:29:11 [Helena]
khalidbelhajjame: many relationships in the conceptual model may need to be ignored
15:29:20 [pgroth]
15:29:23 [Helena]
khalidbelhajjame: that is why they appear to be inconsistent
15:29:32 [satya]
@Khalid: I agree
15:29:35 [pgroth]
15:29:53 [Helena]
pgroth: provenance access and query document
15:30:47 [Helena]
GK: drafted 2 proposals ofr an http inteface for prov discovery
15:31:01 [Helena]
GK: first was not the interface developers were hoping to see
15:31:21 [Helena]
GK: second proposal goes back to first principles and treats it as a REST interface
15:31:51 [Helena]
GK: adding "concepts" section/review and refine terminology (converging on the model document term.)
15:32:08 [Helena]
GK: added discussion about the issues of discovering provenance
15:32:42 [Helena]
GK: link header -> recommend use of the anchor parameter
15:33:31 [Helena]
pgroth: first version did not allow the define the "entity"
15:33:47 [Helena]
pgroth: added the notion of target as well as a resource within the set of concepts
15:34:05 [Helena]
pgroth: that is the anchor or url that can be used to find the provenance of something
15:34:12 [pgroth]
15:34:15 [Yogesh]
15:34:18 [GK]
15:34:30 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy?
15:34:41 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (10%), Yogesh (89%)
15:35:17 [Helena]
Yogesh: multiple provenance URI and target URI -> will provenance uri have provenance about the target uri?
15:35:31 [Helena]
pgroth: they could or could not have that infor
15:35:52 [pgroth]
15:35:53 [Helena]
pgroth: provenance information may or may not have provenance about a target uri
15:35:57 [pgroth]
ack Yogesh
15:36:16 [Helena]
Yogesh: does it make sense to define which provenance uri describe which target uri?
15:36:19 [GK]
15:36:29 [Helena]
pgroth: how to bind a target to a particular set of proveance information?
15:36:45 [Helena]
pgroth: particulalry because a target could show up in many provenance info URI
15:36:50 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:36:52 [GK]
15:37:09 [MacTed]
bad psuedotriple -- { <provenanceURI> :primaryTopic <targetURI> }
15:37:23 [Helena]
GK: html link element is hard to use because does not work like anchor
15:37:43 [stain]
@pgroth, I think that makes sense, it's up to the provenance itself to say something about the target's provenance
15:37:58 [khalidbelhajjame]
15:38:12 [pgroth]
ack khalidbelhajjame
15:38:14 [Yogesh]
15:38:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.210.aall
15:38:20 [MacTed]
or ... { <provenanceURI> :describes <targetURI> }
15:38:20 [MacTed]
or ... { <targetURI> :describedBy <provenanceURI> }
15:38:57 [stain]
15:39:00 [Helena]
khalidbelhajjame: provenance doc show say how to access the provenance of a particular entity -> would also allow connecting resource with entity
15:39:18 [Helena]
pgroth: addressing the common case for access
15:39:29 [Helena]
pgroth: in html -> what's the provenance of the page?
15:39:47 [Helena]
pgroth: need to make that compatible with the notions from the model
15:39:51 [stain]
but is <provenanceURI> allowed to talk about <provenanceURI> even if it does not say how it was made? Like <provenanceURI> pil:usedBy :someProcess
15:39:56 [Helena]
pgroth: not clear in that case that a resource is an entity
15:39:56 [GK]
(Expectation that the provenance itself would be explicit about what it applies to.)
15:40:30 [Helena]
pgroth: html page could be a entity (target uri)
15:40:40 [GK]
I already noted I think we need to add examples to make this area clearer.
15:40:54 [satya]
sorry I did not understand - What is the difference between resource and entity?
15:41:07 [pgroth]
zakim, who's noisy?
15:41:17 [Zakim]
pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), GK (4%), khalidbelhajjame (28%), +1.512.524.aaii (5%)
15:41:23 [pgroth]
15:41:57 [Helena]
Yogesh: notion of resource in the access document -> should be raised as an issue with the conceptual model; the vocabulary was not sufficient to describe how to access provenance
15:42:04 [Helena]
pgroth: that's not the role of the model
15:42:13 [GK]
I think khalid has a point... I think we need to clarify what we're trying to say and revisit.
15:42:13 [satya]
I agree with your point Khalid - but I am trying to understand why are we differentiating between resource and entity?
15:42:28 [Helena]
Yogesh: had to use new notion "resource" to describe how to access provenance of things
15:42:32 [stain]
I believe "resource" in PAQ doc is just a normal web resource, right?
15:42:38 [MacTed]
15:42:42 [Helena]
pgroth: need to connect to web architecture; use web architecture terms
15:42:42 [MacTed]
15:42:50 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:42:50 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:43:05 [pgroth]
ack Yogesh
15:43:25 [Helena]
Yogesh: why use of target in http header (instead of anchor)?
15:43:32 [satya]
Following on Khalid's point, can't we model web resource as type of entity?
15:44:13 [MacTed]
+1 satya (that's what my queue+ is about...)
15:44:39 [Reza_BFar]
Another option would be to create an indirection layer between a web resource and an entity and use something like XSL/XSLT to specify possible transformations as an extension... though this adds complexity which would be undesirable.
15:44:57 [Helena]
call a concept instead of a target?
15:45:37 [GK]
15:45:37 [Helena]
pgroth: reusing terminology from http specification, need ot make sure they "mean" what they "say"
15:45:38 [Reza_BFar]
+1 on terminology from Paul.
15:45:51 [GK]
HTTP uses "anchor" IIRC
15:45:54 [Helena]
DGarijo: http uses target in the wrong way
15:46:20 [Helena]
MacTed: a web resource is a resource; a subclass of an entity
15:46:24 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1 for Jim
15:46:28 [Helena]
MacTed: conceptual framework MUST maintain that!
15:46:30 [GK]
How is resource a subclass of entity?
15:46:44 [Helena]
MacTed: if we dont' treat it as so, we break everything
15:46:47 [GK]
A rsource is a thing that can be named
15:47:02 [DGarijo]
@Helena I wasn't the one talking :)
15:47:04 [Helena]
MacTed: an entity may be of any type of class (e.g. web reousrce is an entity IF it can be named)
15:47:06 [GK]
All of those entoties are also resources.
15:47:24 [Helena]
MacTed: provenance is not just about where a web page comes from
15:47:34 [GK]
I think we have crossed wires here. Not sure where right now.
15:47:35 [pgroth]
15:47:53 [Helena]
MacTed: e.g. a picture on a usb stick is not a web resource, but it does have provenance
15:48:12 [Helena]
pgroth: provenance model document describes "entity"
15:48:15 [GK]
I agree with most of what @MacTed said, except as noted...
15:48:22 [Helena]
pgroth: in terms of the provenance model document
15:48:24 [Curt]
back to BOB vs. entity?
15:49:17 [Helena]
15:49:22 [pgroth]
ack MacTed
15:49:38 [GK]
I agree with @MacTed -- it's not the *web* resource that's special or distinct here...
15:49:45 [GK]
(per se)
15:50:03 [Helena]
MacTed: provenance of entities is intertwined
15:50:13 [Helena]
MacTed: provenance should NOT be just about web resources
15:50:25 [Helena]
MacTed: provenacne document should allow that
15:50:31 [pgroth]
ack Helena
15:50:50 [jcheney]
I thought we all agreed previously that "provenance should NOT be just about web resources"
15:51:06 [jcheney]
(or at least it was generally the consensus)
15:51:35 [GK]
@jcheney yes, I agree - and I think this discussion has become crossed if that's how it sounds
15:52:16 [pgroth]
15:52:18 [GK]
q+ to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document
15:52:25 [satya]
Lena: Why should entity be different in query and access document from provenance model?
15:52:32 [khalidbelhajjame]
@paul, the provenoce model does not use resource, PAQ does
15:52:35 [GK]
Sorry hunting mute button
15:52:46 [JimMcCusker]
JimMcCusker has joined #prov
15:52:47 [satya]
@GK :)
15:54:09 [Zakim]
15:54:26 [pgroth]
15:54:26 [Reza_BFar]
I agree with Paul on that the treatment in Query is different than the Model. The overwhelming use-case, IMHO, of how you "Query" a provenance provider will be through some http related interface hence lending itself to URI
15:54:35 [pgroth]
15:54:38 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:54:38 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document
15:54:45 [GK]
15:55:01 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:55:02 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:55:23 [satya]
15:55:26 [pgroth]
15:55:27 [Helena]
pgroth: propose shortcuts and extensions added to the provenance model document
15:55:36 [pgroth]
ack satya
15:55:37 [GK]
ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource
15:55:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-35 - And graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [on Paul Groth - due 2011-08-18].
15:56:18 [Zakim]
- +1.714.454.aakk
15:56:30 [stain]
which points are those..?
15:56:40 [Zakim]
- +1.858.210.aall
15:56:44 [satya]
15:57:29 [smiles]
15:57:56 [smiles]
15:57:56 [Helena]
pgroth: minimal list of what is useful to have (e.g. something that looks like attribution)
15:58:42 [pgroth]
15:58:52 [pgroth]
15:59:16 [satya]
will add comments to mailing list thread
15:59:44 [Zakim]
- +1.512.524.aaii
15:59:47 [Zakim]
15:59:47 [Zakim]
15:59:48 [Zakim]
- +49.302.093.aaee
15:59:49 [Zakim]
15:59:50 [Zakim]
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:54 [Zakim]
15:59:56 [pgroth]
rrsagent, set log public
15:59:56 [Zakim]
15:59:58 [Zakim]
16:00:00 [Zakim]
16:00:02 [pgroth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pgroth
16:00:02 [Zakim]
16:00:04 [Zakim]
16:00:08 [Zakim]
16:00:09 [pgroth]
trackbot, end telecon
16:00:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:00:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:00:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model [1]
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [2]
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:00:15 [Zakim]
16:00:23 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, GK, +1.213.290.aaaa, Yogesh, Curt, +1.937.343.aacc, stain, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, Paulo, jcheney,