IRC log of tt on 2013-12-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:39 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:57:39 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-irc
14:57:41 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:41 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tt
14:57:43 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TTML
14:57:43 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:44 [trackbot]: Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:57:44 [trackbot]: Date: 12 December 2013
14:57:47 [nigel]: chair: nigel
14:58:14 [nigel]: zakim, agenda+ IANA Registration
14:58:14 [Zakim]: agendum 1 added
14:58:27 [nigel]: zakim, agenda+ Actions pending review
14:58:27 [Zakim]: agendum 2 added
14:58:36 [nigel]: zakin, agenda+ Actions Overdue
14:58:50 [nigel]: zakim, agenda+ Due next week actions
14:58:50 [Zakim]: agendum 3 added
14:59:05 [nigel]: zakim, agenda+ Issues discussed over the last week
14:59:05 [Zakim]: agendum 4 added
14:59:13 [nigel]: zakim, agenda?
14:59:13 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:59:14 [Zakim]: 1. IANA Registration [from nigel]
14:59:14 [Zakim]: 2. Actions pending review [from nigel]
14:59:14 [Zakim]: 3. Due next week actions [from nigel]
14:59:14 [Zakim]: 4. Issues discussed over the last week [from nigel]
15:00:34 [tmichel]: tmichel has joined #tt
15:00:39 [tm]: tm has joined #tt
15:01:38 [plh]: plh has joined #tt
15:05:28 [tmichel]: I am coming ...
15:06:17 [pal]: pal has joined #tt
15:06:43 [mijordan]: mijordan has joined #tt
15:07:22 [tmichel]: Zakim, who is here?
15:07:22 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has not yet started, tmichel
15:07:23 [Zakim]: On IRC I see mijordan, pal, plh, tm, tmichel, Zakim, RRSAgent, nigel, trackbot
15:08:00 [nigel]: rrsagent, start meeting
15:08:00 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', nigel. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:08:06 [nigel]: rrsagent, this is ttwg
15:08:06 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is ttwg', nigel. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:08:13 [nigel]: zakim, this is ttwg
15:08:14 [Zakim]: ok, nigel; that matches SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM
15:08:23 [nigel]: zakim, agenda?
15:08:23 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:08:24 [Zakim]: 1. IANA Registration [from nigel]
15:08:24 [Zakim]: 2. Actions pending review [from nigel]
15:08:24 [Zakim]: 3. Due next week actions [from nigel]
15:08:24 [Zakim]: 4. Issues discussed over the last week [from nigel]
15:08:54 [nigel]: regrets+ glenn adams, andreas tai, mike dolan
15:09:50 [nigel]: scribeNick: nigel
15:09:56 [pal]: i am present
15:10:12 [tmichel]: I am here too
15:10:28 [pal]: let me know if you would like input on specific item
15:10:52 [nigel]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:52 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P1, +1.617.347.aaaa, Yves, pal
15:10:53 [tmichel]: zaki, who is here?
15:11:02 [tmichel]: zakim, who is here?
15:11:02 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P1, +1.617.347.aaaa, Yves, pal
15:11:03 [Zakim]: On IRC I see mijordan, pal, plh, tm, tmichel, Zakim, RRSAgent, nigel, trackbot
15:11:27 [nigel]: zakim, yves is tm
15:11:28 [Zakim]: +tm; got it
15:11:35 [mijordan]: Zakim, 1.617.347.aaaa is mijordan
15:11:35 [Zakim]: sorry, mijordan, I do not recognize a party named '1.617.347.aaaa'
15:11:41 [nigel]: zakim, ??P1 is me
15:11:41 [Zakim]: +nigel; got it
15:11:47 [tmichel]: zakim, Yves is tmichel
15:11:47 [Zakim]: sorry, tmichel, I do not recognize a party named 'Yves'
15:11:57 [mijordan]: Zakim, +1.617.347.aaaa is me
15:11:57 [Zakim]: +mijordan; got it
15:12:00 [nigel]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see nigel, mijordan, tm, pal
15:13:04 [nigel]: zakim, next agendum
15:13:04 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "IANA Registration" taken up [from nigel]
15:13:43 [nigel]: nigel: we did get a response from IANA saying their relevant expert is looking at our request.
15:14:08 [nigel]: ... plh do you know more?
15:14:37 [Zakim]: +Plh
15:15:27 [nigel]: plh: we don't have a timeline for when IANA will respond.
15:15:51 [nigel]: ... I'll talk to our main IETF contact, Mark Nottingham to see if he can do something about it.
15:16:28 [nigel]: zakim, next agendum
15:16:28 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Actions pending review" taken up [from nigel]
15:16:47 [nigel]: topic: Charter
15:17:43 [nigel]: plh: I have some non-substantive changes from W3C management on the charter, mostly clarifications e.g. in the scope we can change a should to a must without adding technical requirements to the spec.
15:18:22 [nigel]: ... It's important to separate the two use cases of video description and captions, so they're in two tracks. It's out of TTML's scope to specify track switching.
15:19:11 [nigel]: nigel: video description might need new features.
15:19:38 [nigel]: ... such as pan and fade timing metadata, pronunciation guidance etc.
15:20:02 [nigel]: ... especially if the requirement is to support text to speech
15:20:37 [nigel]: ... e.g. language models and other technical features.
15:21:05 [nigel]: ... We need to have the requirements clear before we make video description a SHALL vs a SHOULD.
15:21:26 [nigel]: plh: will feed this back.
15:21:45 [nigel]: plh: the VTT milestone will need to take into account the charter approval delay
15:22:22 [nigel]: tmichel: also the CR review period is short
15:22:40 [nigel]: plh: can write a note to the TTWG to explain the edits
15:23:02 [nigel]: pal: what is the process now? do we have a timeline?
15:23:28 [nigel]: plh: Unfortunately I can't give a clear answer due to the document license issue.
15:24:09 [nigel]: ... The AB discussed the document license this week. The AB did not oppose the idea of applying the HTML experimentation to WebVTT.
15:24:41 [jdsmith]: jdsmith has joined #tt
15:24:47 [nigel]: ... so David Singer can do this. This means I have to spend time resolving potential issues raised by members.
15:25:25 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
15:25:28 [nigel]: ... At the face to face meeting at TPAC the MS rep was unable to handle this kind of issue.
15:26:47 [nigel]: jdsmith: I believe there's been discussion at MS but I don't know the position so far.
15:27:41 [nigel]: plh: the other question is for W3 Management: there are considerations in terms of extending the experiment and opening up the possibility for other groups to take the same approach.
15:27:48 [nigel]: ... I need to discuss this with the director.
15:28:07 [nigel]: ... So this delays the charter submission until at least early January.
15:28:34 [nigel]: pal: Let me know if there's any way I can help resolve this because a number of other organisations are looking forward to IMSC and need a draft for referencing purposes.
15:30:01 [nigel]: nigel: is it possible to split the TTML issues from the WebVTT issue, or would it be considered poor form by reviewers?
15:30:09 [nigel]: plh: I can ask but it would be awkward.
15:30:57 [nigel]: pal: If this gets to January and this isn't resolved will there be a point where it is better to split the charter than proceed without a definite date?
15:31:00 [nigel]: plh: I believe so yes
15:32:24 [nigel]: action-240?
15:32:24 [trackbot]: action-240 -- David Singer to Consider the problem of the license change from cg to wg, with the ac and ab and staff -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
15:32:24 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/240
15:33:07 [nigel]: nigel: I need to formally note to this group the query on behalf of David Singer: would existing members of the WG object to the WebVTT rec being published with the CG license?
15:33:21 [nigel]: .. not necessarily to answer right now but formally tabled.
15:33:47 [nigel]: plh: David would like to give the WG the choice for WebVTT docs as to which license they're published under. He wants a CG-compatible license.
15:33:57 [nigel]: pal: Yes but this is a WG not a CG.
15:34:59 [nigel]: plh: That's true. The one used by the CG is not used by the HTML experiment (CC-By 3). I'd need to get legal advice on whether it's compatible with the CG license.
15:35:23 [nigel]: pal: I'm happy to review an updated proposal, but not to do a lot of work and then find that it changes.
15:35:48 [nigel]: plh: I don't think it's going to be acceptable to allow the WG to choose the license freely.
15:36:01 [nigel]: Current wording is at: http://www.w3.org/2013/12/timed-text-charter-david.html
15:36:13 [nigel]: nigel: this could change.
15:36:40 [nigel]: plh: If we adopt the HTML experiment then every WG member can object to the selected license.
15:36:46 [nigel]: s/adopt/extend
15:36:48 [plh]: http://www.w3.org/2013/09/html-charter.html#documentlicense
15:37:25 [nigel]: pal: about to drop off.
15:37:28 [nigel]: topic: PAL issues
15:37:31 [nigel]: issue-295
15:37:31 [trackbot]: issue-295 -- Remove code point restrictions from IMSC -- open
15:37:31 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/295
15:37:34 [nigel]: issue-296
15:37:34 [trackbot]: issue-296 -- Remove xml:lang placement restrictions from IMSC -- open
15:37:34 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/296
15:37:59 [nigel]: pal: revision this week is intended to address these two issues. xml:lang constraint removed as discussed at TPAC.
15:38:33 [nigel]: ... Character set work: I studied CLDR and the CLDR main set is a near-perfect subset of previous Annex A so I've refactored the document to be a superset of CLDR mainset.
15:38:55 [nigel]: ... So all chars in CLDR main sets may be used by authors plus an additional set useful in captioning and subtitle applications.
15:39:16 [nigel]: pal: This edit is therefore the proposal.
15:40:03 [nigel]: nigel: The main objector (who relaxed his objection) was Glenn so we'll leave these as Pending Review for his input.
15:40:30 [nigel]: pal: the next work is to factor in the profiles work when it has been put into TTML2
15:41:30 [nigel]: action: pal to add an issue for tracking purposes to refactor IMSC to conform to the content profile specification of TTML2 dependent on TTML2 profile updates.
15:41:30 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-252 - Add an issue for tracking purposes to refactor imsc to conform to the content profile specification of ttml2 dependent on ttml2 profile updates. [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-12-19].
15:41:47 [nigel]: pal: expects no substantive change but may need to do some shuffling about.
15:42:07 [nigel]: action-220?
15:42:07 [trackbot]: action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:42:07 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
15:43:18 [nigel]: pal: can close - next step is to review edits
15:43:21 [nigel]: close action-220
15:43:21 [trackbot]: Closed action-220.
15:44:17 [nigel]: action-243
15:44:17 [trackbot]: action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due 2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:44:17 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
15:45:15 [nigel]: This action should also be reviewed by all prior to closure - leaving at Pending Review specifically to give Glenn Adams the opportunity
15:45:59 [nigel]: Topic: Charter
15:46:15 [nigel]: action-246
15:46:15 [trackbot]: action-246 -- Nigel Megitt to Take deliverables of draft charter to tag for scrutiny -- due 2013-11-28 -- OPEN
15:46:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/246
15:46:28 [nigel]: nigel: still open for me, dependent on the revised wording.
15:46:33 [nigel]: action-248?
15:46:33 [trackbot]: action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN
15:46:33 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
15:47:37 [nigel]: nigel: may be dependent on Mike to give ATSC details or plh can add something himself.
15:48:21 [nigel]: plh: Others too?
15:48:31 [nigel]: nigel: Yes, following Mark Vickers emails. E.g. HbbTV
15:48:38 [nigel]: ... note that BBC is a member of HbbTV
15:49:43 [nigel]: nigel: Mark Vickers still has this action.
15:50:04 [nigel]: plh: note that anyone can comment during review of the LC
15:50:25 [nigel]: action on nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU paragraph
15:50:25 [trackbot]: Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users>.
15:50:39 [nigel]: action: nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU paragraph
15:50:39 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-253 - Send plh updated wording for the ebu paragraph [on Nigel Megitt - due 2013-12-19].
15:51:25 [nigel]: zakim, agenda?
15:51:25 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:51:27 [Zakim]: 2. Actions pending review [from nigel]
15:51:27 [Zakim]: 3. Due next week actions [from nigel]
15:51:27 [Zakim]: 4. Issues discussed over the last week [from nigel]
15:51:38 [plh]: zakim, move to next agendum
15:51:38 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Due next week actions" taken up [from nigel]
15:51:45 [nigel]: zakim, move to agendum 2
15:51:45 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Actions pending review" taken up [from nigel]
15:52:10 [nigel]: action-180?
15:52:10 [trackbot]: action-180 -- Glenn Adams to Ensure that 10REC errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due 2014-10-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:52:10 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180
15:52:28 [nigel]: close action-180
15:52:28 [trackbot]: Closed action-180.
15:52:36 [nigel]: action-203?
15:52:36 [trackbot]: action-203 -- Glenn Adams to Investigate 708 border style mapping issues with mike's help -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:52:36 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/203
15:53:43 [nigel]: action-204
15:53:43 [trackbot]: action-204 -- Glenn Adams to Add sideways{left,right} then close issue-159 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:53:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/204
15:53:51 [nigel]: issue-159?
15:53:53 [trackbot]: issue-159 -- Text orientation in I18n script processing -- closed
15:53:53 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159
15:54:09 [nigel]: close action-204
15:54:09 [trackbot]: Closed action-204.
15:54:29 [nigel]: action-207
15:54:29 [trackbot]: action-207 -- Glenn Adams to Add round-down clarification to "closest" language, see issue-259 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:54:29 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/207
15:55:03 [nigel]: issue-259
15:55:03 [trackbot]: issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
15:55:03 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
15:55:42 [pal]: yes
15:56:18 [pal]: let me check
15:56:29 [pal]: yes
15:56:39 [pal]: please carry on while I check
15:57:07 [nigel]: action-208?
15:57:07 [trackbot]: action-208 -- Glenn Adams to Add note to issue-275 linking to follow-on changelist which changed to 125% and made a note in ttml1 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:57:07 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/208
15:57:13 [nigel]: issue-275
15:57:13 [trackbot]: issue-275 -- Improve compatibility with line height 'normal' and CSS/XSL-FO implementations. -- closed
15:57:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/275
15:57:58 [plh]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/11d2d5dcb5a1
15:58:51 [nigel]: close action-208
15:58:51 [trackbot]: Closed action-208.
15:58:57 [nigel]: action-214
15:58:58 [trackbot]: action-214 -- Glenn Adams to Review cp008 and consider reformulating the recently added <animate> support to better align -- due 2013-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:58:58 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/214
16:00:48 [nigel]: mijordan: may need to have longer to review this.
16:01:12 [nigel]: action-219
16:01:12 [trackbot]: action-219 -- Glenn Adams to Change to rec in ttml2, and add note to authors indicating that if author wants specific value, then they should specify specific value -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:01:12 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/219
16:01:31 [nigel]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/4b056bc52a0d
16:02:44 [pal]: yes still looking at 259
16:03:05 [pal]: what is 219?
16:03:14 [pal]: specific value of what?
16:03:22 [pal]: ok good
16:03:58 [pal]: so i think Mike Dolan will have input
16:04:05 [pal]: recommend not closing
16:04:12 [nigel]: nigel: okay will leave at pending review
16:04:24 [nigel]: action-220?
16:04:24 [trackbot]: action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- CLOSED
16:04:24 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
16:04:35 [nigel]: nigel: we've covered this
16:04:38 [nigel]: action-221
16:04:38 [trackbot]: action-221 -- Glenn Adams to Double check spec language on css and xsl-fo around line height stacking strategy -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:04:38 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/221
16:04:52 [pal]: re: 259, Glenn implemented something close but different than recommended.
16:04:57 [pal]: I would like to understand why
16:05:09 [pal]: before closing it
16:05:17 [pal]: great improvement though
16:05:30 [pal]: specifically, farthest from 0 != round-up
16:05:34 [pal]: for negative values
16:05:44 [nigel]: nigel: we covered 221 already too, related to line height. Leaving at pending review as per 220
16:05:56 [nigel]: issue-259?
16:05:56 [trackbot]: issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
16:05:56 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
16:06:19 [pal]: sure
16:07:01 [nigel]: nigel: pal was agreeing to my request to add a note to issue-259 stating this small variant to what Glenn implemented.
16:07:21 [nigel]: ... i.e. to handle negative values as well as positive ones in round-up
16:07:40 [nigel]: action-233?
16:07:40 [trackbot]: action-233 -- Glenn Adams to Reach out to CSS WG to understand potential mapping of multi-row-align to CSS -- due 2013-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:07:40 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/233
16:08:29 [mijordan]: Unfortunately, I have to break off now.
16:08:49 [nigel]: plh: we may not have a quorum to deal with all these actions
16:08:57 [nigel]: nigel: okay what can we do?
16:09:07 [nigel]: action-164?
16:09:07 [trackbot]: action-164 -- Jerry Smith to Investigate interop issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-12-05 -- OPEN
16:09:07 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
16:09:14 [Zakim]: -mijordan
16:09:58 [nigel]: jdsmith: has talked to Sean and is still investigating. Need Glenn to discuss further.
16:10:29 [nigel]: plh: Glenn said that XML already has an escape mechanism so we don't need the CSS one too. The drawback is that you can't just transfer the text value into a CSS parser.
16:10:44 [nigel]: jdsmith: I've isolated a contact in MS and will follow up.
16:11:35 [nigel]: plh: Without any change an implementation has to de-escape the XML font family name, then use CSS escaping rules to transfer to a CSS parser. There's a burden both ways.
16:12:52 [nigel]: plh: there's a bit more code required on authoring tools for anyone generating TTML if we change the current mechanism.
16:14:17 [nigel]: nigel: Is this a request to restrict the fontFamily names to those that do not need additional escaping?
16:14:27 [nigel]: jdsmith: I just need to check the status on this.
16:14:43 [nigel]: action-249?
16:14:43 [trackbot]: action-249 -- Glenn Adams to Follow up on action-220, possibly opening new issue -- due 2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:14:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/249
16:15:30 [nigel]: close action-249
16:15:30 [trackbot]: Closed action-249.
16:15:47 [nigel]: action-141
16:15:47 [trackbot]: action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. -- due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:15:47 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
16:17:09 [nigel]: issue-162
16:17:10 [trackbot]: issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents -- open
16:17:10 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
16:19:11 [nigel]: http://www.w3.org/mid/CECF5778.163CC%252525nigel.megitt%2540bbc.co.uk
16:19:41 [nigel]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Dec/0036.html
16:21:44 [nigel]: plh: happy to accept the initial proposal.
16:21:57 [nigel]: ... See if anyone complains!
16:22:04 [nigel]: nigel: that would create a problem we couldn't solve.
16:22:30 [nigel]: topic: aob?
16:22:46 [pal]: I am available
16:22:56 [pal]: i would ask Glenn and Mike
16:22:58 [nigel]: nigel: Availability for next week?
16:22:58 [pal]: directly
16:23:25 [nigel]: nigel: I will confirm with Glenn and Mike too
16:24:03 [nigel]: nigel: looking ahead I propose not to have a meeting on 26th December or 2nd January
16:24:38 [Zakim]: -Plh
16:24:38 [nigel]: nigel: next week's meeting will happen unless I notify otherwise
16:24:39 [Zakim]: -pal
16:24:39 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
16:24:42 [tmichel]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:24:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html tmichel
16:24:46 [Zakim]: -tm
16:24:57 [Zakim]: -nigel
16:24:58 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:24:58 [Zakim]: Attendees were pal, tm, nigel, mijordan, Plh, [Microsoft]
16:42:52 [nigel]: Present: pal, tm, nigel, mijordan, Plh, jdsmith
16:43:01 [nigel]: rrsagent, publish minutes
16:43:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html nigel