W3C

- DRAFT -

Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
09 Dec 2013

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
janina, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
jcraig, janina

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 09 December 2013

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Dec/0001.html

<jcraig> scribe: jcraig

ARIA 1.0; any remaining comments?

<clown> UAIG comments: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/list?document_version_id=23

JS: accepted comments (will add notes pointing to 1.1)

RS: one comment was "banner should be landmark" (in HTML?)

JS: comments came in pretty late in the process

outstanding implementation issues

RS: two features at risk: menu events and click handlers on elements with clickable roles

No ETA for WebKit or IE

MC: mark as at-risk in CR document; don't have to pull out until January.
... 17 Jan 2014 as deadline for implementation
... Publish PR on 28 Jan 2014

RS: 508 refresh is coming soon, too

MK: Could we move that req from normative to informative

MC: We could do that, if we modify the at-risk statement
... Another section (text alternative) already lists change from normative to informative

(2B may be changed to informative)

Clown: tests pass (that one passes now)

<janina> scribe: janina

mc: Need to know by Thursday whether we can remove the "at risk" on name computation

mk: If we add informative option to menu events, we need to do so this week---by Thursday

clown: Will raise this on UAIG call

mc: Joseph can add the note re ATK/AT-SPI changes
... We have three versions of what the note does ... We need to decide

[discussion of whether to include a URI, and what that URI might point at]

<jcraig> scribe: jcraig

JC: could use a redirect?

MC: Bad practice to change normative URI

RS: Tell her "We'll start work on it."

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss the other at-risk feature: click events on clickable roles and to mention ISSUE-616 at-risk feature

issue-616?

<trackbot> issue-616 -- ISSUE: Review potentially at-risk statement "When the user triggers an element with a defined activation behavior in a manner other than clicking it, such as by pressing Enter, simulate a click on the element." -- closed

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/616

MC: could resolve in HTML

Clown: What about SVG?

RS: SVG 2 has tabindex; this could go there.
... Though this moves ARIA into the realm of affect mainstream user interface

Clown: Cynthia wants this section put back in for ARIA 1.1

Publication schedule and Timeline

MC: on schedule, assuming director approval
... lots of work to do: Jan 28 schedule is aggressive, but doable.

JS: Need to make sure we're on the ball starting early January

MC: We'd announce PR on publication day: hopeful that's Jan 17th

RS: Rec a month later?

MC: If we get AC feedback and support, yes. If we get feedback, will be required to address it.
... optimistically 5 Rec status weeks after PR
... lobby them to vote yes with no comments (best for us)
... if comments needed, encourage including concrete suggestions

@hidden

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0050.html

Implemented in browsers as: [hidden] { display: none; }

<janina> scribe: janina

<jcraig> coincides with hidden DOM property

rs: Steve intro'd concerns
... I agree this is loosely coupled to ARIA-Hidden

<jcraig> this is totally unrelated to aria-hidden

jc: Reason this is implemented is that every framework has something about this

<jcraig> frameworks implement this el.hide()

jc: Just to toggle display property

<jcraig> el.hidden = true

<jcraig> <el hidden> content prop

<jcraig> el.hidden DOM prop

jc: Change one, the other updated accordingly

<jcraig> [hidden] { display: none; }

<jcraig> default style sheet

rs: There was the discussion about how this relates to ARIA-Hidden

jc: But that's not this bug

<jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0050.html

<jcraig> "concluded that the spec should say explicitly that hidden='' trumps all CSS."

<jcraig> this is a non-issue for accessibility, as long as the UA has a default rule implemented via display:none.

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to explain how/why @hidden was added

<jcraig> <el hidden>

<jcraig> el.hidden = false;

<jcraig> <el>

<jcraig> [hidden] selector no longer applies

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say you could set something to hidden with HTML, override the CSS to make it visible, but the AAPI mapping still suggests it´s hidden, right?

<jcraig> Mozilla tracker discussion here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194

mc: TF question potential conflict ARIA vs CSS

<clown> el.getComptuedStyle() - what's the "display" property, if <el> (no hidden attribute)?

<jcraig> ""

mc: Remove hidden returns CSS to default value
... ONly issue is author overriding to make it nonhidden

<clown> [hidden] {display:block;}

<jcraig> so in author styles: [hidden] { display: block !important; }

<jcraig> I'd call that an author error

<jcraig> MC: and bizarre

mc: Choosing to create an inaccessible situation --- author choice

clown: how inaccessible?

jc: Discussion now to map hidden weak to aria

<jcraig> <el hidden> (weak mapping to aria-hidden)

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574

jc: A separate discussion whether to map weak and/or strong

<richardschwerdtfeger> While I sympathize with Tab's rationale in comment #8 (and had made the

<richardschwerdtfeger> same argument myself in an earlier mailing list thread), I think there

<richardschwerdtfeger> are two reasons to not do this. The first point was raised by Boris in

<richardschwerdtfeger> comment #16: "Making things with @hidden "display: none !important" in

<richardschwerdtfeger> the UA stylesheet would mean web [pages] cannot override the display at

<richardschwerdtfeger> all, ever." Secondly, it's possible for authors to opt-in to such a

<richardschwerdtfeger> behavior by adding this rule to one of their page stylesheets.

mc: Further down Ted says "this was considered, but we shouldn't do that, imo"
... As I read, Ted does not support !important

rs: So he supports overide?
... So one needs to look at css in addition?

mc: That's our concern when we filed the bug

rs: We don't have an implementation guide that addresses this and includes CSS considerations
... An html5 would have to consider the special case for hidden that can be overridden

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#exclude_elements2

<clown> "Elements, including their descendents, that have host language semantics specifying that the element is not displayed, such as CSS display:none or visibility:hidden or HTML 5 hidden attribute."

clown: Above from UAIG 1.0

rs: doesn't address marked hidden but overriden to be visible, which is being allowed by 19277 resolution

mc: H5 wg saying "we don't want to enforce consistency"
... TF bug asked to mark this as "important"
... We're OK defining this as "author error"

<clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html

rs: but really not

mc: If we don't address this in our docs, we have to live with it

rs: We have to address this in an html5 implementation doc

<jcraig> The resolution should potentially include:

<jcraig> 1. Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content.

<jcraig> 2. Make the @aria-hidden weak mapping to @hidden only apply to the rendered display outcome of the element with all CSS rules applied. (e.g. <el hidden style="display:block"> would not map to aria-hidden="true")

[discussion of whether people like, or ever liked, ARIA-Hidden]

jc: Think we need both to resolve the issue

clown: really like the first

rs: #1 would wcag under "robust"
... wcag 4.x
... any problem with #2

<jcraig> s/for work/to catch my shuttle to work/

rs: Don't think #1 is enforceable, but can be a WCAG error

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Michael Take the following text to the WCAG WG as warning or violation under robust "Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1319 - Take the following text to the wcag wg as warning or violation under robust "make it an author error/warning to override the css display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content." [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-12-16].

<clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277

<clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277#c21

<richardschwerdtfeger> Resolution: James Craig to add comment to defect 19277 "Make the @aria-hidden weak mapping to @hidden only apply to the rendered display outcome of the element with all CSS rules applied. (e.g. <el hidden style="display:block"> would not map to aria-hidden="true")"

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Michael Take the following text to the WCAG WG as warning or violation under robust "Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-minutes.html#action01]
 
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Default Present: janina, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig
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Found Date: 09 Dec 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-minutes.html
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