IRC log of pf on 2013-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:01:12 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-irc
15:01:13 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs member
15:01:14 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #pf
15:01:15 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:01:16 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM already started
15:01:17 [trackbot]: Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:01:17 [trackbot]: Date: 09 December 2013
15:01:26 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P10
15:01:35 [janina]: zakim, ??P10 is me
15:01:37 [Zakim]: +janina; got it
15:02:40 [Zakim]: +Matt_King
15:03:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]: chair: Rich
15:03:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]: meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
15:03:59 [Zakim]: +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:05:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Dec/0001.html
15:06:25 [clown]: clown has joined #pf
15:07:03 [Zakim]: +[GVoice]
15:07:04 [MichaelC]: zakim, call cooper-mobile
15:07:04 [Zakim]: ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:07:05 [Zakim]: +Cooper
15:07:16 [clown]: zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:07:16 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
15:07:24 [clown]: zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:07:24 [Zakim]: ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:09:26 [jcraig]: jcraig has joined #pf
15:10:41 [jcraig]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:41 [Zakim]: On the phone I see janina, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cooper
15:11:46 [Zakim]: +James_Craig
15:12:12 [jcraig]: scribe: jcraig
15:12:32 [jcraig]: TOPIC: ARIA 1.0; any remaining comments?
15:12:33 [clown]: UAIG comments: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/list?document_version_id=23
15:13:15 [jcraig]: JS: accepted comments (will add notes pointing to 1.1)
15:13:52 [jcraig]: RS: one comment was "banner should be landmark" (in HTML?)
15:14:12 [jcraig]: JS: comments came in pretty late in the process
15:15:35 [mattking]: mattking has joined #pf
15:16:00 [jcraig]: TOPIC: outstanding implementation issues
15:16:21 [jcraig]: RS: two features at risk: menu events and …
15:16:44 [jcraig]: No ETA for WebKit or IE
15:18:07 [jcraig]: MC: mark as at-risk in CR document; don't have to pull out until January.
15:18:40 [jcraig]: MC: 17 Jan 2014 as deadline for implementation
15:18:59 [jcraig]: MC: Publish PR on 28 Jan 2014
15:20:17 [jcraig]: s/and …/and click handlers on elements with clickable roles/
15:20:32 [jcraig]: RS: 508 refresh is coming soon, too
15:21:26 [jcraig]: MK: Could we move that req from normative to informative
15:21:47 [jcraig]: MC: We could do that, if we modify the at-risk statement
15:23:34 [jcraig]: MC: Another section (text alternative) already lists change from normative to informative
15:24:15 [jcraig]: (2B may be changed to informative)
15:24:36 [jcraig]: Clown: tests pass (that one passes now)
15:25:35 [janina]: scribe: janina
15:26:31 [janina]: mc: Need to know by Thursday whether we can remove the "at risk" on name computation
15:28:22 [janina]: mk: If we add informative option to menu events, we need to do so this week---by Thursday
15:31:21 [janina]: clown: Will raise this on UAIG call
15:32:06 [jcraig]: q+ to discuss the other at-risk feature: click events on clickable roles
15:32:45 [janina]: mc: Joseph can add the note re ATK/AT-SPI changes
15:33:10 [jcraig]: q+ to mention ISSUE-616 at-risk feature
15:33:23 [janina]: mc: We have three versions of what the note does ... We need to decide
15:36:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
15:38:36 [janina]: [discussion of whether to include a URI, and what that URI might point at]
15:39:28 [jcraig]: scribe: jcraig
15:39:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
15:39:42 [jcraig]: JC: could use a redirect?
15:40:00 [jcraig]: MC: Bad practice to change normative URI
15:40:28 [jcraig]: RS: Tell her "We'll start work on it."
15:41:01 [jcraig]: ack me
15:41:01 [Zakim]: jcraig, you wanted to discuss the other at-risk feature: click events on clickable roles and to mention ISSUE-616 at-risk feature
15:41:13 [jcraig]: issue-616?
15:41:13 [trackbot]: issue-616 -- ISSUE: Review potentially at-risk statement "When the user triggers an element with a defined activation behavior in a manner other than clicking it, such as by pressing Enter, simulate a click on the element." -- closed
15:41:13 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/616
15:44:39 [jcraig]: MC: could resolve in HTML
15:44:48 [jcraig]: Clown: What about SVG?
15:45:08 [jcraig]: RS: SVG 2 has tabindex; this could go there.
15:45:50 [jcraig]: RS: Though this moves ARIA into the realm of affect mainstream user interface
15:46:05 [jcraig]: Clown: Cynthia wants this section put back in for ARIA 1.1
15:46:13 [jcraig]: TOPIC: ???
15:46:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Topic: Publication schedule and Timeline
15:46:59 [jcraig]: s/???/Publication schedule and Timeline/
15:47:09 [jcraig]: s/Topic: Publication schedule and Timeline//
15:47:34 [jcraig]: MC: on schedule, assuming director approval
15:47:59 [jcraig]: MC: lots of work to do: Jan 28 schedule is aggressive, but doable.
15:49:01 [jcraig]: JS: Need to make sure we're on the ball starting early January
15:49:28 [jcraig]: MC: We'd announce CR on publication day: hopeful that's Jan 17th
15:49:46 [jcraig]: s/CR/PR/
15:50:06 [jcraig]: RS: Rec a month later?
15:50:35 [jcraig]: MC: If we get AC feedback and support, yes. If we get feedback, will be required to address it.
15:51:01 [jcraig]: MC: optimistically 5 Rec status weeks after PR
15:51:36 [jcraig]: MC: lobby them to vote yes with no comments (best for us)
15:52:02 [jcraig]: MC: if comments needed, encourage including concrete suggestions
15:52:08 [jcraig]: TOPIC: aria-hidden
15:52:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0050.html
15:55:35 [jcraig]: s/aria-hidden/@hidden/
15:56:11 [janina]: q?
15:56:12 [jcraig]: Implemented in browsers as: [hidden] { display: none; }
15:56:41 [janina]: scribe: janina
15:56:57 [jcraig]: coincides with hidden DOM property
15:57:00 [janina]: rs: Steve intro'd concerns
15:57:08 [janina]: rs: I agree this is loosely coupled to ARIA-Hidden
15:57:15 [jcraig]: q+ to explain how/why @hidden was added
15:57:31 [jcraig]: this is totally unrelated to aria-hidden
15:58:13 [janina]: jc: Reason this is implemented is that every framework has something about this
15:58:14 [jcraig]: frameworks implement this el.hide()
15:58:31 [janina]: jc: Just to toggle display property
15:58:46 [jcraig]: el.hidden = true
15:59:03 [jcraig]: <el hidden> content prop
15:59:09 [jcraig]: el.hidden DOM prop
15:59:24 [janina]: jc: Change one, the other updated accordingly
15:59:52 [jcraig]: [hidden] { display: none; }
16:00:02 [jcraig]: default style sheet
16:00:38 [janina]: rs: There was the discussion about how this relates to ARIA-Hidden
16:00:43 [janina]: jc: But that's not this bug
16:00:48 [jcraig]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0050.html
16:00:49 [MichaelC]: q+
16:01:18 [MichaelC]: q+ to say you could set something to hidden with HTML, override the CSS to make it visible, but the AAPI mapping still suggests it´s hidden, right?
16:01:25 [jcraig]: "concluded that the spec should say explicitly that hidden='' trumps all CSS."
16:01:39 [jcraig]: this is a non-issue for accessibility, as long as the UA has a default rule implemented via display:none.
16:02:02 [MichaelC]: ack j
16:02:02 [Zakim]: jcraig, you wanted to explain how/why @hidden was added
16:02:25 [janina]: ack jc
16:02:58 [jcraig]: <el hidden>
16:03:07 [jcraig]: el.hidden = false;
16:03:10 [jcraig]: <el>
16:03:21 [jcraig]: [hidden] select no longer applies
16:03:43 [jcraig]: s/select/selector/
16:03:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
16:04:01 [MichaelC]: ack me
16:04:01 [Zakim]: MichaelC, you wanted to say you could set something to hidden with HTML, override the CSS to make it visible, but the AAPI mapping still suggests it´s hidden, right?
16:04:19 [jcraig]: Mozilla tracker discussion here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194
16:04:54 [janina]: mc: TF question potential conflict ARIA vs CSS
16:05:02 [clown]: el.getComptuedStyle() - what's the "display" property, if <el> (no hidden attribute)?
16:05:15 [jcraig]: ""
16:06:42 [janina]: mc: Remove hidden and returns CSS to default value
16:06:52 [janina]: s/and //
16:07:22 [janina]: mc: ONly issue is author overriding to make it nonhidden
16:07:32 [clown]: [hidden] {display:block;}
16:07:34 [jcraig]: so in author styles: [hidden] { display: block !important; }
16:08:24 [jcraig]: I'd call that an author error
16:08:32 [jcraig]: MC: and bizarre
16:08:52 [janina]: mc: Choosing to create an inaccessible situation --- author choice
16:08:58 [janina]: clown: how inaccessible?
16:09:19 [janina]: jc: Discussion now to map hidden weak to aria
16:09:29 [jcraig]: <el hidden> (weak mapping to aria-hidden)
16:09:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
16:10:52 [janina]: jc: A separate discussion whether to map weak and/or strong
16:13:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]: While I sympathize with Tab's rationale in comment #8 (and had made the
16:13:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]: same argument myself in an earlier mailing list thread), I think there
16:13:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]: are two reasons to not do this. The first point was raised by Boris in
16:13:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]: comment #16: "Making things with @hidden "display: none !important" in
16:13:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]: the UA stylesheet would mean web [pages] cannot override the display at
16:13:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]: all, ever." Secondly, it's possible for authors to opt-in to such a
16:13:06 [richardschwerdtfeger]: behavior by adding this rule to one of their page stylesheets.
16:13:20 [janina]: mc: Further down Ted says "this was considered, but we shouldn't do that, imo"
16:13:49 [janina]: mc: As I read, Ted does not support !important
16:14:05 [janina]: rs: So he supports overide?
16:14:27 [janina]: rs: So one needs to look at css in addition?
16:14:47 [janina]: mc: That's our concern when we filed the bug
16:15:32 [janina]: rs: We don't have an implementation guide that addresses this and includes CSS considerations
16:16:08 [janina]: rs: An html5 would have to consider the special case for hidden that can be overridden
16:16:14 [clown]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#exclude_elements2
16:16:51 [clown]: "Elements, including their descendents, that have host language semantics specifying that the element is not displayed, such as CSS display:none or visibility:hidden or HTML 5 hidden attribute."
16:17:10 [janina]: clown: Above from UAIG 1.0
16:17:33 [janina]: rs: doesn't address marked hidden but overriden to be visible, which is being allowed by 19277 resolution
16:17:59 [janina]: mc: H5 wg saying "we don't want to enforce consistancy"
16:18:13 [janina]: s/a/e/
16:18:58 [janina]: mc: TF bug asked to mark this as "important"
16:19:14 [janina]: mc: We're OK defining this as "author error"
16:19:27 [clown]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html
16:19:32 [janina]: rs: but really not
16:19:56 [janina]: mc: If we don't address this in our docs, we have to live with it
16:20:07 [janina]: rs: We have to address this in an html5 implementation doc
16:20:15 [jcraig]: q+
16:20:16 [jcraig]: The resolution should potentially include:
16:20:17 [jcraig]: 1. Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content.
16:20:17 [jcraig]: 2. Make the @aria-hidden weak mapping to @hidden only apply to the rendered display outcome of the element with all CSS rules applied. (e.g. <el hidden style="display:block"> would not map to aria-hidden="true")
16:24:00 [janina]: [discussion of whether people like, or ever liked, ARIA-Hidden]
16:26:49 [janina]: jc: Think we need both to resolve the issue
16:27:01 [janina]: clown: really like the first
16:27:46 [janina]: rs: #1 would wcag under "robust"
16:27:57 [janina]: rs: wcag 4.x
16:28:21 [Zakim]: -James_Craig
16:28:45 [janina]: rs: any problem with #2
16:28:46 [jcraig]: s/for work/to catch my shuttle to work/
16:29:00 [jcraig]: jcraig has left #pf
16:29:47 [janina]: rs: Don't think #1 is enforcable, but can be a WCAG error
16:29:54 [Zakim]: -Matt_King
16:29:58 [janina]: s/enforcable/enforceable/
16:33:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Action: Michael Take the following text to the WCAG WG as warning or violation under robust "Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content."
16:33:04 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1319 - Take the following text to the wcag wg as warning or violation under robust "make it an author error/warning to override the css display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content." [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-12-16].
16:34:09 [clown]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277
16:34:20 [clown]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277#c21
16:34:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Resolution: James Craig to add comment to defect 19277 "Make the @aria-hidden weak mapping to @hidden only apply to the rendered display outcome of the element with all CSS rules applied. (e.g. <el hidden style="display:block"> would not map to aria-hidden="true")"
16:34:58 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:35:01 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:35:14 [Zakim]: -Cooper
16:35:17 [Zakim]: -janina
16:35:18 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM has ended
16:35:18 [Zakim]: Attendees were janina, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig
16:35:23 [janina]: zakim, bye
16:35:23 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #pf
16:35:30 [janina]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:35:30 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-minutes.html janina
16:35:39 [janina]: rrsagent, make log public
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