W3C

- DRAFT -

WCAG Working Group Teleconference

26 Nov 2013

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Regrets
Alan, Kerstin, Bruce
Chair
AWK
Scribe
marcjohlic

Contents


<MichaelC> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 26 November 2013

<MarcoZ> Hi all! Sorry can only join via IRC today.

<scribe> scribe: marcjohlic

<AWK> take up next item

Update on techniques and understanding release schedule

AWK: About 4 months ago we discussed increasing the regularity of updating our documents.
... Proposed every 6 months - so we are down to the wire in the next month
... We are up to date on comments - we have new techniques and modifications to techniques and failures.
... Our last update took a year and a half. Would rather see us update more frequently and with less content (if that's what it takes)

<MarcoZ> Zakim: MarcoZ is Marco_Zehe

AWK: We need to have everything agreed upon as a group (that will make it into the document) by the first week of January
... Some hot button topics that we have to come to agreement on w/i the next month (i.e. F65)
... If there are things that need to be discussed - things to be deleted - now is the the time to speak up. Contribute your thoughts and text on the subject

<AWK> take up next item

Feedback on updated Techniques 5th November 2013 (#3 only) <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/>

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/

3. Updated technique Using the group role to identify related form controls

AWK: No record of this one being resolved - but recall discussing this one.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Sing_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls_when_using_fieldset-legend_is_not_practical

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls_when_using_fieldset-legend_is_not_practical

<Loretta> What about Sailesh's comments at the end?

DM: Have a third example that will be added
... Added comments at end to remind us what needs to be changed.

JOC: Leave this open

RESOLUTION: Leave open

<AWK> take up next item

2. LC-2865: Bad link in H42

RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed

3. LC-2863: Edits to G73

RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed

4. LC-2860: Techniques should be scoped by Success criteria

RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed

1. LC-2864: Bad link in understanding 1.3.1

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131126MiscItems/results#x2673

RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended

5. LC-2868: links with different text and 2.4.4

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131126MiscItems/results#x2868

<AWK> "It is a best practice for links with the same destination to have the same descriptions (and this is a requirement per Success Criterion 3.2.4 for pages in a set). It is also a best practice for links with different purposes and destinations to have different descriptions."

AWK: Based on Michael's comment and my comment on Michael's comment I have updated the record

RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended

<AWK> take up next item

AWK: Awaiting EM TF sending the updated Note
... Initial response date was set for Dec 10. The ask that we review this within two weeks. Depending one when we get the updated Note that date could shift

<AWK> take up next item

AWK: Keep an eye out for survey on the note

7. ARIA Technique: ARIA3: Identifying valid range information with the aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax properties

RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed

3. ARIA Technique: Using aria-label to provide an invisible label where a visible label cannot be used

RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed

1. ARIA Technique: Failure of Success Criterion 1.3.1 due to the use of role=presentation on content which conveys semantic information

AWK: Mostly editorial comment - to Test procedure to break it into 2 steps
... Making the quick change to the procedure in the wiki

RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended

2. ARIA Technique: Using aria-describedby to provide descriptions of objects

<David> +1

<Joshue> +q

KW: As written it appears that the Test procedure suggests that the aria-describedby attribute on it's own describes the object - but you could have the case of an alt attribute in addition (on an image)

<Joshue> -q

<Joshue> +q to agree with Kathy

KW: In example 1 we would need "Lady McBeth" in the <p> element to pass the test procedure

<David> Ensure that the describedby along with with other attributes adequately provide an alternative to the image

<Joshue> _q

<Joshue> -q

<MarcoZ> aria-describedby should not be valid if no alt attribute on the image is present first. It needs to have an accessible name more than it needs an accessible description.

<Joshue> +q

<MarcoZ> Correct.

<Joshue> An img URL is tab navigable

<Joshue> sry, I thought it was an image link - that there was a href.

<Joshue> -q

<Joshue> +q

<Joshue> -q

JOC: Could add a note regarding quirks in AT - but should keep example as clean and simple as possible

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_objects

DM: Copying the example code and putting into webpage to test it

<Joshue> I think we should say something about the combined @alt and aria-describedby

KW: More than just images though

<Kathy> Examine whether the object name or text equivalent and text description accurately describes or serves the equivalent purpose to the object.

<Joshue> +1 to that adding combined

DM: "Ensure that the describedby along with with other attributes adequately provide an alternative to the image"

<Joshue> Examine whether the combined object name or text equivalent and text description accurately describes or serves the equivalent purpose to the object.

<MarcoZ> What I said about images generally is valid for all elements. aria-describedby, or other methods of providing an AccDescription, are always an addendum to the primary information. AccName is always first.

DM: Tested fine in Firefox
... IE does not announce the aria-describedby

<MarcoZ> dm, you may need to test with different screen readers. In IE, they all have to do their own evaluation due to very limited exposure to MSAA, and no IAccessible2 support. So, NVDA may announce something JAWS doesn't, or vice versa.

<Joshue> AWK: Ok, thats all set.

<Joshue> AWK: We know that UA support is changing but this is set as a way to provide a long description?

<Joshue> AWK: Anyone have any thoughts on this as UA support needs to improve?

<Joshue> DMacD: IEs not doing it, in aViewer its not showing.

<Joshue> JN: I don't use that, I look at FF and dig under the hood.

<MarcoZ> +1

<Joshue> DMacD: Can you have a look James?

<Joshue> <discussion on the tools of the trade>

<David> http://davidmacd.com/test/discribedby.html

<Joshue> AWK: Reads UA notes..

<Joshue> KW: They are consistent

<Joshue> AWK: But is our text correct?

<Joshue> KW: aria-describedby is flakey - its not consistent

<Joshue> AWK: That comes accross in UA notes - thoughts?

<Joshue> Kathleen: Maybe we shouldn't have combination in there.

<Joshue> +q

<Joshue> AWK: If that was the case should we change the example - so it provides a redundant version of the @alt.

<Joshue> Kathleen: Thats what I was going to suggest

<Joshue> AWK: Kathy?

<Joshue> KW: I don't advocate to my clients that they do this, but as an alternative to a longdesc mechanism this is the way to go.

<Joshue> KW: Is this going to be sufficient or advisory?

<Joshue> AWK: Loretta?

<Joshue> LGR: Its a fuzzy area.

<jamesn> david, the accessible relation is exposed in FF

<Joshue> LGR: With what the threshold should be, we published the longdesc one as a sufficient technique even though there was little support so we moved it to advisory. So there isn't a policy about how much support there needs to be.

<Joshue> AWK: So it comes down to how much difficulty there would be if someone relied on a sufficient technique for end users.

<Joshue> KW: What would make this stronger is an example of a button or something else.

<Joshue> KW: So it provides an object other than an image - we are getting stuck on support for images.

<Joshue> JN: I'll respond to that - we originally had that.

<Joshue> KW: Can we change the title?

<Joshue> AWK: Lets change it to images?

<Joshue> KW: Yes, then you can change number 3 in test procedure.

<Joshue> DMacD: Do we want to go where the puck should be or where it is, in terms of a11y support?

<Joshue> KW: Thats very interesting, my clients are not looking just at WCAG but the UA.

<Joshue> KW: So if we have sufficient techniques we should have good support.

<Joshue> KW: People rely on the sufficient techniques.

<Joshue> SP: There was a comment on flakey aria-desc support- I don't believe that. If used for things that are not UI controls then there is a problem.

<Joshue> SP: So when using ARIA for rich UI stuff, it will work not ordinary HTML elements.

<Joshue> AWK: Now the procedure etc is current with what we have been discussing.

<Joshue> AWK: There is still some debate around what Sailesh is saying. My understanding is that aria-desc is to be used with images.

<Joshue> AWK: Thoughts?

DM: Good debate, but I don't know that the ARIA spec is explicit on that it's just for interactive elements

JN: Spec editors would say that it is not the intent that this would be for interactive elements. If that's unclear we should point out where in the spec and get it corrected as that's not its intention

AWK: Doesn't appear that ARIA Best Practices document has any issue with using it on images

<Joshue> +1 to accept

DM: Are User Agent Notes up to date?

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_images#Using_ARIA_Describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_images

AWK: Looks like last update was from David - can you check them for updates

JN: Be sure to check latest version of NVDA is included

DM: Looks like User Agent Notes need to be updated as it shows IE works

KW: Found that IE is flakey on this - works at times and not others

AWK: David will update UA Notes

RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended pending David's updates

<AWK> ACTION: David to update user agent notes for http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_images#Using_ARIA_Describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_images [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2).

<AWK> dmacdona

JN: All techniques sent to WG the TF believes are Sufficient

<David> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls_when_using_fieldset-legend_is_not_practical

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013

3. [Still open, discussed on 26th Nov] Updated technique Using the group role to identify related form controls

Returning to this earlier topic

DM: Added an Example 3 to http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Sing_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls_when_using_fieldset-legend_is_not_practical

<Joshue> +q

JOC: Does Example 3 need the onkeydown (js) pieces - is it necessary?

SP: Included to keep it as a complete example

JOC: Maybe a note added that listeners / js may be needed to make it a complete example, but just keeping parts it may not be as clear

AWK: My inclination is to keep example shown very simple, and then include a working example that can be referred to

<Loretta> I will go clean up the code formatting.

SP: Intent of fieldset in html is that it brings in the styling that demonstrates the objects are a group of fields

AWK: Looks like we need to clean up a couple of the examples on this one
... Need to clear up the "when fieldset - legend is not practical" in title - if that is really needed.

JN: Let's schedule to do this one late in the meeting - can't attend earlier.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: David to update user agent notes for http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_images#Using_ARIA_Describedby_to_provide_descriptions_of_images [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2013-11-26 17:39:14 $

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WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AWK DM DMacD David David_MacDonald IPcaller JN JOC James_Nurthen Joshue Joshue_O_Connor KW Kathleen Kathleen_Anderson Kathy Kathy_Wahlbin Katie_Haritos-Shea LGR Loretta Marc_Johlic MarcoZ MichaelC Michael_Cooper P10 Peter_Thiessen SP SPanchang Sailesh_Panchang aaaa aabb aacc https inserted jamesn joined trackbot wai-wcag
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WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Alan_Smith)
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Regrets: Alan Kerstin Bruce
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0123.html
Found Date: 26 Nov 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/11/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: david

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