13 Nov 2013

See also: IRC log




astearns: Is DPUP IG collect product and working reqs? Packaging? Other things than layout?

ivan: Yes, a number of other topics
... mtadata, behavioral adaption.
... packaging & distribution si another bucket.

dauwhe_: IDPF does packaging, also.

markus: Widows is theme that always comes up. But is typograpy th eonly important thing?
... Missing higher level picture?

dauwhe_: Important, yes. E.g., what is a "page"?

@@: what is a page, how do get to the next, multiple pages...

scribe: A lot of that is about CSS scope.

ivan: Not yet anything going on outside CSS WG.
... DPUB IG will try to understand and collect what publ industry needs.
... When a proposal has gelled, can bcome an HTML extension, e.g.

@@@_Opera: We experimented with these things.

dauwhe_: How does it intereact with DOM and such.

lbolstad: We experimented with GCPM spec. Page-overflow.
... Gives you a paginated environment.
... But is still one document.
... No comcept of "page" as such, which leads to limitations in what you can do with style.

markus: And events, right?

ivan: That is the kind of experience we need.
... IG is not doing specification work.

dauwhe_: Books only one of many use cases.

astearns: In Opera demo: are those written down in spec form?

lbolstad: Can easily do so

markus: Experiment includes higher-level notion of page/pages?

lbolstad: Just what we get from layout engine.
... Our impl limited to what can with CSS. Still one document that you navgate within.

astearns: GCMP would allow elements to be paged. Does you expreiment fo that?

lbolstad: Our previous experiment did that.

rossen: Is this session about pages in terms of layout, or app model of pages?
... I worked with epub applications in Windows 8.
... I heard discussion about app model of pages, cross-app naviagation.
... Lot of apps have trouble openg, say the bible, in the middle.
... All kinds of gymnastics to figure out how/where to open.
... Different pbs from layout in CSS.

dauwhe_: My goa is to expose all the differen levels.

rossen: Example:
... We started working on CSS regions to paginate content.
... Could build a lot of apps with that that resemble books or magzines.
... Regions is just a primitive for pagination.
... That was a fairly easy model and poeple build paginated apps quickly.
... But now: how do I do open page 300 out of 3000?
... Or: Irotated the device and how do I reposition?
... No good correlation where in the content you are.
... You can get the elements in a regions, but app developer has to represent that.
... Diff application did different things. Some did good job.
... But a stuggle with large amounts of continuous content.
... Layout seems to me to be the easier problem.

ivan: You think of an alternative DOM?
... A Node for a page?

astearns: Regions gives that info, what content is in a region. But is a low-level interface.

rossen: UNless you have a content odel that expresses an approximation of pieces, chapters, that expresses the content you are searching for.

liam: Not a new problem.
... Mark-up nbased e-book readers have existed for 20 years.
... There are algorithms for doing this.
... Som epbs with interatcion with DOM.
... Careful for loops.
... Resizing font, e.g., is similar to problem with placing footnotes
... But all solvable.
... CSS gives lots of opportunities for such problems.

dauwhe_: PAgination depends on many variables controlled by user.
... Trying to predict without actually doing it...

ivan: Reasong for this group [DPub IG] is to locate the concepts in various groups.
... Understanding the problem, but what is missing?
... What to do to make your life easier?

Bert: Different problems for interactive apps and optimal reading.

ivan: Yes, an e-book reader takes time to reformat if you chage the font size.
... But is that a problem?
... Often I can continue reading, even thought the page number changes.

mohammed: not really true.
... More a pb of ergonomy.
... How to keep user in his context?
... Publisher can push updates: user reopens the book and it has changed. What do we present to him?

liam: Annotations, dog ears, in the margin.
... Blur disticntion between book and...
... If you want those annotation to work, yo'll have to put in good mark-up.
... Computer doesn't know what word you were looking at before you changed the szie.

mohammed: ... keep the context...

liam: But what is behnd the scenes to enable that?

dauwhe_: In early days of kindle, just three font sizes, etc... I was tempted to just make 15 different PDFs for all the 15 different layouts possible.

mohammed: but how do you then keep track of corrsponance between pages?

rossen: When tyou have annotations, users also may want to share them.
... Imagine one user on phone and another on laptp, thus differen tpages.
... Is that a DOM range?
... Having a way to standardize these kinds of ranges or context points.

<astearns> rossen also mentioned sharing an annotation across document versions

rossen: Metadata about where chapters start, allows binary search instead of linear search.
... And even smaller chunks.

ivan: Certainly annotation requirements says that this identification problem is hardest to crack.

liam: There is prior art, e.g., in TEI.

ivan: IDPF has CFI for that, too.

astearns: mohammed mentioned reflow: if you have to repaginate,
... as a reader I don't necessarily care if the pagination is started formt he beginning of the doc.
... ONly when I go back, I need to see the earlier pages.

@@: structure pf pages can change. It is acceptabel solution for some cases.

scribe: Images may move around, may make it hard to scan through the book.
... But generally OK for a novel.

astearns: Some way to go back only to most recent hard page break.

liam: Spatai aspects of reading artivel in Scientific American.
... Research why readers of books remembered better than readers of e-books.
... Had to do with spatial aspects.

dauwhe_: Yes, very common: was it twoards the top of the page?
... Pointing to specific location in text.

ivan: I thought of metadata for annotation, but interesting that it can also be used for speed.

dauwhe_: (Searching content)
... Knowing that a given text was in region 540.

astearns: Differnet categories.
... Need page number, need structure for layout; but also if page number doesn't matter and still want paginated experience.
... Two different cases.
... If you don't need the page number, the renderer doesnt' have to do the work.
... If you are searching dor a phrase, you get a page, but without a page number.

ivan: But what if you thenn browse back to start?

Brady Duga: "Don't read backwards!" :-)

rossen: We cannot start a Region chain in the middle.
... Starting form one of the paragraphs, we'll start a region chain.
... But i a book you wan to be in the context of the body, etc.
... A CFI to descrive all the hierarchy, your breakpoints,
... then you can layout a small portion, and still be in your context.
... Then you can go backwards and forwards.

dauwhe_: That contetx is critical.
... All kinds of style may come from the container.

liam: Worked with telephone repair manuals,
... Had to be large and fast. Could not meet all requirements.
... Could not keep all context. Skeleton of top level only.
... Some formatting didn't work, you might not have all of the fornt matter.
... Editors learned to work with this quite easily.

dauwhe_: Need to know for styling if a page is left or right.

rossen: searchin if regions already complciated, esp. in more complex magainze-like layout.

ivan: Would be good if the experiences mentiond, rossen and lars, came to the IG as well and gave input.
... What do you expereince as missing pieces/

rossen: I'll look into it.

Summary of Action Items

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