Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

03 Sep 2013


See also: IRC log


+1.510.334.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, AWK, Joshue, Peter_Korn, +1.703.225.aabb, Sailesh_Panchang, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, +1.703.861.aacc, +1.704.877.aadd, Alan_Smith, Katie, Adam_Solomon, +1.650.506.aaee, James_Nurthen, [IPcaller]
David_MacDonald, Kerstin


<trackbot> Date: 03 September 2013

<is> + agenda Final review of the ARIA techniques on this page

<is> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/

<is> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/

<is> accessibility requirements that are not currently met by WCAG.

<is> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG20/Institutional_Memory/SC_1.1.1

<is> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG20/Institutional_Memory/SC_1.1.1

<adam_solomon> ipcaller is me

<adam_solomon> i have no mic or sound yet

Final review of the ARIA techniques on this page

<is> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/

LGR: In the past rearrange the question - that is something that you have to do

AS: Thats an idea

<is> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_that_serves_the_equivalent_purpose

AK: we are on to #14
... David had a Action item for #13

LGR: Per 'Using aria-labelledby to provide a text alternative that serves the equivalent purpose' comments
... I was responding to others

AK: I am not sure what the original titlte is because of the comments. I think it was aria labelled by before

AS: I dont think it was just that
... How do we see the Wiki to see if the title has chnaged

MC: There is no history that Iknow of

AS: Are these listed from the latest edits?

MC: Yes

AWK: There was a title change back in March

<is> +q

AWK: I guess without regard to what happend I find the title confusing today. Let change it to spmething simpler

LGR: Lets find the Wiki page, and the URI for the aria techniques

AS: Anyone who has reservtions about the ARIA techniques

<is> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA

<is> +q

AS: Suggest 'Using aria-labelledby to retain controls'?

LGR: We either make one Labelled vy techniques that covers a;l the alyernatives or we do each individual ones
... The TaskForce didnt decide other way but started towards one technique for each

AS: This is something we should make a call on today

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say "Using ARIA labelledby to provide a text alternative for images"?

<adam_solomon> +q

AWK: Salesch is not on IRC yet
... We sometimes run the risk of making the techniques heavy and light. This look about right having htem broken out

Salesh: I know that thse are sepertae techniques - I think one that is aria-labelledby and they will be able to find all of the techniques that fall under that

AS: These are canddiate to combime

PK: I actually want to speak against doing that


KHS: I agree with Peter

<AWK> Sailesh and Adam like combining, Peter, AWK, and Katie like them separate. others?

PK: You really want to have the probalem you want to solve in the title

AS: Looking at it again that is really 1.1.1

LGR: and 4.1.2

AS: Perhaps we will have a technique to 4.1.2

IS: we have lost Adam
... having a generic aria-labelledby into one

AS: We should combine it with 1.1.1

... I think this is something we are not going to solve today. I agree with what Peter is saying - it is easier for developers
... There is also a good thing about a generic over-arching

Joshua: Do we have to make a decision now?

LGR: So you will need a new way to track techniques now

Joshua: I thonk I will happy to keep the title descriptive in order to track the techniques even if it seems too wordy


<adam_solomon> ipcaller is me

AWK: I think that is fine with it having it be wordier. This particular one just needs a better name
... I would lobby for Text Alternative for image or graphic object

Joshua: We will keep the titles, and work on categorization in the future

PK: What about reversing tthe verbage - how to do this - using this elemnt?

<AWK> PK: What about "Providing text alternatives for images by using aria-labelledby"

<Joshue108> KHS: I don't agree with Peters suggestion.

<Joshue108> KHS: I think its helpful to have aria x for blah, as that helps to group the techniques together.

Joshua: title of technique

Selesh: It is very important what Peter said the way the title is used - the labelledby and break it up

Salech: how can you fix, there are many ways to solve a problem not just using one element

Joshua: We already have that
... there is a lrger issue of categorization - maybe we need to orgnize a template
... there is a tendency toward a more generic title

Josjua: Lets use "Using ARIA labelledby to provide a text alternative for any non-text content (images Etc)"

AWK: "Using ARIA labelledby to provide a text alternative for non-text content"

Joshua: Is that done now?

AWK: I will get that sorted out

Joshea: We are just suggesting that we get over the hump - and will move on to a wider talk about categorization

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content

Joshua: Most of the feedback was related to the title - except for Michael

MC: It is just a general type of thing. The technique is assuming someone knows that. It needs to be made clear

Joshua: I agree, can you look st it tto add some explanatory text?
... David commented I agree with removing aria-labeled ID - are there any objections


Mobile A11y and WCAG: Discussion

MC: Proposal above

Final review of the ARIA techniques on this page

MC: That is an advanced usage

<Joshue_108> +q to second more advanced technique idea

MC: I think we need to say enoug but not everything possible to confuse them

<Zakim> Joshue_, you wanted to second more advanced technique idea

Joshua: Does everyone agree to have also an advacne technique with mutiple IDs

<AWK> The <code>aria-labelledby</code> attribute associates an element with text that is visible elsewhere on the page by using an ID reference value that matches the ID attribute of the labeling element.

AWK: What might help if we get rid of "a peice of"

Joshua: I like that
... no objection. Andrew go for it

Jpshua: Could someon edo a bit of digging

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_concatenate_a_label_from_several_text_nodes

<Loretta> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_concatenate_a_label_from_several_text_nodes

LGR: It has already been accepted by the WG

<Joshue_108> updated ids http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content#Example_1

Joshua: Any objection?
... OK we are good. We have goy one

AWK: WE did not talk about my second point about adding alt
... We have 5 no alt

<Joshue_108> +q

AWK: We had other technniques where code wouldnt validate

<Alands> Link in Question 15 leads to location of using mulitple text items

Joshua: Without alt my main concern would be that is saying that an image could be ignored

AS: To be honest I have no idea
... You would have to put some sort of value in there

AWK: You have to support user ganets that go further back

AS: There is no good reason to be using it here

LGR: The text is already on the page - you do not need it here

Joshua: Will that trigger the AT to

Salesh: Basically - that text is already on the page - the issue is in what context - is the text on the page is the same as what the alt text should be

<Joshue_108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content#Example_1

<Joshue_108> that should be example 2

AS: The second one is not quite the same

AWK: It would mean nothong like itself

LGR: I thin

k exmplpe 1 is wrong

LGR: I thonk example 1 is wrong
... Backwards compatability has to be included
... A technoque says how you can use a technology if you are using it

Joshua: If there is an alternative mechanism - is there not an exception

LGR: I do not thonk there is an exception

AWK: We did put a note in that there is this hierachy

Joshua: I though the outcome was that im certian situations alt would not be required if it was covered in anothet technology

JN: I think that it true in WHat WG but not W3C HTML5 spec

Joshua: Do you think this is problemmatic

LGR: I think this is problementic and will cloud the issue

JOshua: I think it doesnt need alt tex in this case of example 1
... I would be prepared to stand by the technique if the UA doesnt support it - it is new way of providing rich data for something
... I am a little concerned about example 2

AS: It says it is an organizational chart - it needs to explain that it is smaller images

Joshua: OK , I think the example is thin

AS: Jaws doesnt support this one but NVDA does

Selesh: a rich item what if there is an alt and an aria-labellby and they are different

<Alands> I need to drop. Good discussions.

Joshue: Are you ok with changing/updating the 5 star rating
... pkease look at the examples and see if they are right

LGR: Can you break that really long line

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#textalternativecomputation

Joshue: James when you have this example, as far as the design patternis tere a way to use a single pattern that could be repurposed

JN: You would make the thing more complicated than it needs to be

Joshue: Do you want to let people know that this is a read only srat pattern

JN: I added read only

Joshue: Thank you. Are we making a call to accept this technique?
... Any objections?

Resolution: Technique accepted http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content#Example_1

Mobile A11y and WCAG: Discussion

<AWK> s/Resolution: Technique accepted http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content#Example_1/Resolution: Technique accepted http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content

Final review of the ARIA techniques on this page

Joshua: We were going to talk about WCAG 2 and Mobile - there are some issues around it

Joshua we need to adjust an gaps in our resoucres or add resources

Joshue: Micheal?

MC: Summary it is coming to WAI that Mobile Accessibility is not well covered by WCAG. How you would apply WCAG 2 to mobile resources. I think we could do more
... There are many people in the world looking to us to create a task force to write techniques for Mobile Taskforce which expands our mandate
... It is possiblle there will be joined with another task force or working group - but most likely that will not be the case. I am working on a draft for this taskforce that should get sent out soon.
... We have to be careful. We want this group to know this is happeneing - and to think about if this is a good thing for WCAG 2 to take on with all of the existing work going on

PK: I am curious about the scope of this work. What do they think is diferent about web apps running on a mobile device
... What do the proponents feel is in scope?

Joshua: the scope is big issue, by doing background research. It is actually quite complicated. Where does app, native, toolkits etc begin and end -
... To determine the stack and scope that we are covering

PK: The first scope is Req gathering - in WCAG 2ICT - the W3C does not seem to have a good way to put a summary on native apps

Joshua: Hopefully we will come up with something. Mobile is something that is needed and a hot topic

<MichaelC> ack

MC: W3C is on the radar at various levels at what the boundry of web and native - the scope of W3C is going to need clarification
... That is likely to take longer - that decision - before we want to get strated at this taskforce
... We may look at Best Practices - we will find ourselves running into that scope question - but not overstep our bounds

PK: Does anyone have a sense of what is differednt for a web app on a mobile device. Do we have an example of that?

MC: I have beenhearing that some techniques are stronger for mobile devices

LGR: My guess is that this is going to turn into alot of work
... We are going to need to do a lot of testing

MC: I think that is important. We will need recuiting to find resources well versed inn Mobile

Joshue: Loretta you are right this is going to be tough to be able to ind folks with expertise and bandwidth - they are going to be looking to us

Salesh: I understand constraints - there is not better group that us to respond to this challenge
... and to idenify the gaps and techniques that are relevant

AWK: Sounds like Salesh might be a new Task Force chair

Joshue: I understand this is a complicated issue. I doo think we have a lot of good resources, I think we just neeed to free them up and recruit new people

Mobile A11y and WCAG: Discussion

Training for WCAG group members: Discussion

Joshue: Training for working group members - extending skills. We have skill gpas
... We are trying to work out ways of addressing that.
... I am happy to help people - but we do not always have a bunch of time - people could be getting up to speed by looking at other resources online
... We are thing about this. What do you think?
... Do you think that there is no need for training or are there things that you think you can benefit from?

AWK: We are gaining alot of aria techniques - and we may not have folks who are strong in aria.

Joshue: This was initally about aria

PK: Are you envisoning on the call or something that could be repurposed. ARIA training for the general public.

Joshue: Our goal is to get THIS GROUP gain better skills for our group

Joshua: Separate calls for special training

<Joshue_108> ack Lor*

LGR: Learning is one of the great benefits of this. I am nervous that everyone can know everything
... The solutions is not to train all it is better to recruit folks who do know this

Joshue: there are a lot of variations - people can opt in or not
... It is best tto have the experts - but that is hard sometimes - my idea is to train the trainers

LGR: Turning the Working Group into the Trainers of the world is a complicated things

Joshue: I suppose we would all be a little bit coy if we did not admot that people look to us for answers to these things

LGR: That is what the techniques are designed to do - but not for us to be the all the Best Practices for all thongs in the wotld

AWK: The WG has multple ways to gain ARIA expertise. This is to add this expertise to our group
... It is one stategy

LGR: This has been done in the past

JN: Who has the time to create training resources?

AWK: Initially we are going to figure out to what extent is there a need
... Maybe a brownbag - not a presenter who presents - but someone just sharing that gets folks to adk questions
... We are trying to identify the need level

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: +1.510.334.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, AWK, Joshue, Peter_Korn, +1.703.225.aabb, Sailesh_Panchang, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, +1.703.861.aacc, +1.704.877.aadd, Alan_Smith, Katie, Adam_Solomon, +1.650.506.aaee, James_Nurthen, [IPcaller]
Present: +1.510.334.aaaa Michael_Cooper AWK Joshue Peter_Korn +1.703.225.aabb Sailesh_Panchang Loretta Marc_Johlic +1.703.861.aacc +1.704.877.aadd Alan_Smith Katie Adam_Solomon +1.650.506.aaee James_Nurthen [IPcaller]

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Regrets: David_MacDonald Kerstin
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013JulSep/0090.html
Found Date: 03 Sep 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/09/03-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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