IRC log of mlw-lt on 2013-05-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:10:46 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-irc

07:11:16 [fsasaki]

meeting: MLW-LT f2f

07:11:23 [fsasaki]

chair: felix

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07:11:33 [fsasaki]

agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/BledMay2013#Tuesday

07:12:51 [fsasaki]

present+ ankit(irc)

07:12:57 [fsasaki]

topic: agenda review

07:12:59 [fsasaki]

looking at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/BledMay2013#Tuesday

07:13:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

07:13:11 [fsasaki]

present: dave, david, karl, arle, jirka, mauricio, pablo, yves, tadej, felix

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present+ milan

07:16:05 [kfritsche]

present+ Karl

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present+ dF

07:18:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

08:28:09 [fsasaki]

present- david

08:28:19 [fsasaki]

present+ ankit(IRC)

08:28:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

08:29:32 [fsasaki]

topic: going through issues

08:29:45 [fsasaki]

summary issue 74 - 89 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013May/0059.html

08:30:16 [fsasaki]

summary issue 106 - 123 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013May/0060.html

08:30:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

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09:27:25 [tadej]

action: felix to review draft for XLIFF mapping

09:27:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-504 - Review draft for XLIFF mapping [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-14].

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09:54:32 [tadej_]

action: dF to correct XLIFF mapping (change prefix its to itsx for certain attributes)

09:54:32 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-505 - Correct XLIFF mapping (change prefix its to itsx for certain attributes) [on David Filip - due 2013-05-14].

09:56:05 [tadej_]

action: Felix to set up the URI placeholder for ITS2-XLIFF mapping (http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff)

09:56:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-506 - Set up the URI placeholder for ITS2-XLIFF mapping (http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff) [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-14].

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10:44:51 [Arle]

Action: Dave to look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking module for provenance

10:44:51 [trackbot]

Error finding 'Dave'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.

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10:45:20 [Arle]

Action: dlewis6 to look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking module for provenance

10:45:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-507 - Look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking module for provenance [on David Lewis - due 2013-05-14].

10:55:42 [Arle]

Action: Yves to examine XLIFF resource data module with respect to external resouce.

10:55:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-508 - Examine XLIFF resource data module with respect to external resouce. [on Yves Savourel - due 2013-05-14].

10:57:29 [Arle]

Action: davidF to make notes on extraction/merging behavior for target pointer

10:57:29 [trackbot]

Error finding 'davidF'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.

10:57:52 [Arle]

Action: david to make notes on extraction/merging behavior for target pointer

10:57:52 [trackbot]

'david' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dlewis6, dfilip).

10:58:04 [Arle]

Action: dfilip to make notes on extraction/merging behavior for target pointer

10:58:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-509 - Make notes on extraction/merging behavior for target pointer [on David Filip - due 2013-05-14].

11:56:56 [Marcis]

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11:59:26 [Marcis]

Hi All

11:59:41 [Marcis]

We are waiting for the GotoMeeting Organiser to arrive

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scribe:Arle

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12:12:25 [Arle]

Topic: XLIFF mapping

12:13:44 [Arle]

David: Mārcis asked why we have both its- and itsx-

12:13:52 [Arle]

Felix: Can you clarify it for me too?

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12:14:41 [Arle]

David: Sometimes the local markup does not exist in XLIFF, so you have to use its. In some cases the local markup exists, but some information is lost in the mapping, so the attributes no longer make sense and depend on the data that was mapped.

12:15:06 [Arle]

.. For that we use itsx-. The URI is actually the its-xliff namespace, but we use itsx- prefix.

12:15:18 [Arle]

.. The namespace has been sort of defined.

12:15:53 [Arle]

Felix: Point Tilde to http://www.w3.org/ns/iits-xliff/ There is nothing there, but there will be.

12:16:08 [Arle]

s/iits-xliff/its-xliff/

12:16:47 [Arle]

David: preserve space

12:17:13 [Arle]

.. XLIFF uses xml:space, so what do we say about inline?

12:17:27 [Arle]

.. There shouldn't be different whitespace behavior inline, right?

12:17:41 [Arle]

.. so I would suggest to say that preserveSpace doesn't need to be defined for inline.

12:18:10 [Arle]

Yves: You could, but I'm not sure tools can actually do it. But you could have an element in a paragraph where you need to preserve space.

12:18:38 [Arle]

David: A code sample inline might need that. Can you put xml:space on that?

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12:18:53 [Arle]

Yves: You could. No idea what tools would do, but follow the example of xml:lang here.

12:19:15 [Arle]

David: Agreed. Use generic xits- and xml:space

12:20:06 [Arle]

David: Localization quality issue

12:20:48 [Arle]

Dave: We decided to do this only in standoff mode.

12:21:16 [Arle]

Dave: you can do it on unit, source, or target, depending on where the issue is and where it relates.

12:21:18 [Yves_]

s\http://www.w3.org/ns/iits-xliff/\http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff/\

12:22:55 [Arle]

David: Localization quality issue

12:23:06 [Arle]

Dave: Not finding anything on this in the spec.

12:23:14 [Arle]

David: Not sure if the rating makes sense for inlines.

12:23:35 [Arle]

.. Maybe in 1.2 if mtype="set"

12:23:48 [Arle]

s/"set"/"seg"/

12:24:31 [Arle]

.. In 1.2 both unit and seg are structural. But talking at that fine-grained level doesn't make sense.

12:24:40 [Arle]

Yves: can we have it on a span element in HTML?

12:24:49 [Arle]

.. If so, then we need to support it.

12:25:05 [Arle]

Dave: We can't anticipate what people might do.

12:25:51 [Arle]

David: We should have a note to say that it is discouraged to do it on spans and other inline elements.

12:27:09 [Arle]

Dave: a lot of things like mtConfidence work at fine granularity.

12:27:21 [Arle]

David: This is analogical. It's the same thing: a score.

12:27:48 [Arle]

Dave: Would you apply these to an alt-trans?

12:28:28 [Arle]

David: Alt-trans don't have any equivalent in the target document.

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12:29:21 [Arle]

Arle: I think it makes sense to support it because you might need it for your selection mechanism between multiple alt-trans elements.

12:29:29 [Arle]

David: Agreed.

12:29:56 [Arle]

Action: dlewis6 to make LQI and LQR similar to mtConfidence in structure.

12:29:56 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-510 - Make LQI and LQR similar to mtConfidence in structure. [on David Lewis - due 2013-05-14].

12:30:44 [Arle]

David: mtConfidence. We don't have much for 2.0.

12:31:35 [Arle]

Action: dfilip to create mtConfidence examples for XLIFF 2.0

12:31:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-511 - Create mtConfidence examples for XLIFF 2.0 [on David Filip - due 2013-05-14].

12:32:39 [Arle]

David: for origin, it doesn't tell you what it should look like. Don't want to conflict with simple and advanced usages.

12:33:18 [Arle]

Dave: the reasoning for using it as a flag was so that you'd know how to treat things in scenarios, but you can't reserve that phrase.

12:33:52 [Arle]

David: We could recommend that origination is used for a URI. Then it would be like annotatorsRef, but it would be overloaded.

12:34:57 [Arle]

.. Maybe we use origin for annotators ref and then we could have—wouldn't need a flag then—because the ref would say it mtConfidence.

12:35:20 [Arle]

.. We get rid of annotatorsRes in alt-trans, but put it origin and then it is overloaded.

12:35:36 [Arle]

Yves: Doesn't sound good to me. Tools already use origin and want to put values there.

12:36:05 [Arle]

.. I use it to tell me that it comes from Microsoft

12:36:18 [Arle]

.. We have matchQuality. Why not use annotatorRef like we do elsewhere?

12:36:30 [Arle]

Dave: annotatorsRef then becomes the flag.

12:37:02 [Arle]

Yves: I don't use annotatorsRef. It shouldn't behave differently depending on where it comes from.

12:37:39 [Arle]

.. I already use it. You don't need to overload origin. It doesn't bring anything to the information. You already have confidence.

12:38:00 [Arle]

Felix: The tools processing origin and mtConfidence don't need to understand both.

12:38:42 [Arle]

Yves: Using it will create problems since we already use it. Not just mine, so we can't reuse it for an override.

12:38:48 [Arle]

.. We would lose information.

12:39:25 [Arle]

David: So shall we leave origin out of the example?

12:39:30 [Arle]

Dave: Yes, it takes care of the problem.

12:40:14 [Arle]

Felix: The conclusion of those in the room is not to confuse origin and annotatorsRef

12:41:26 [Arle]

Dave: The only issue is that matchQuality doesn't have restrictions on the value.

12:41:32 [Arle]

David: Could be anything: TM, MT, etc.

12:42:24 [Arle]

David: Agree we can use mtConfidence as the flag for the processor. We don't have to specify what to do with origin. Resolved.

12:43:13 [Arle]

David: Allowed characters. This is only just now stable in terms of the regex. The mechanism is to use the its:allowedCharacters, in both XLIFF 1.2 and 2.0.

12:43:43 [Arle]

David: StorageSize in 1.2 is clear. but need action about native attribute in 1.2.

12:43:49 [Arle]

.. maxWidth.

12:44:02 [Arle]

Yves: We actually decided we can't use local markup.

12:44:14 [Arle]

David: 1.2 is resolved, but 2.0 needs checking.

12:44:36 [Arle]

Yves: The example currently shows transunit, but normally it would apply to the element with the content that has the limitation.

12:45:36 [Arle]

David: Make it always on source and target, in 2.0 as well.

12:45:43 [Arle]

Yves: Should be the same for allowedCharacters.

12:45:46 [Arle]

David: Agreed.

12:46:47 [Arle]

Scribe: pnietoca

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12:47:23 [pnietoca]

scribe pnietoca

12:52:27 [pnietoca]

Pablo: Felix is summarising his discussion with Robin Berjon about the handling of HTML translate

12:52:37 [pnietoca]

.. https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/118

12:53:46 [pnietoca]

Yves: Which of the 3 options choose?

12:54:03 [pnietoca]

Jirka: Whatever you want!

12:54:26 [pnietoca]

Karl: It should be the most supported

12:55:02 [pnietoca]

Yves: Can support a bit of the three

12:57:59 [Arle]

\me darobin, what was the ID number for the GTM session you used.

12:59:57 [pnietoca]

Pablo: Robin has just joined the meeting

13:00:51 [pnietoca]

Yves: Talking in general about HTML5

13:01:22 [pnietoca]

Robin: The text on HTML5.1 is going in the right direction

13:01:45 [pnietoca]

Robin: The reference should be HTML5.1

13:02:33 [pnietoca]

David: We understand we need to be in sync with HMTL5.1, but we need a normative reference

13:03:46 [fsasaki]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#the-translate-attribute

13:04:19 [pnietoca]

Robin: You can normative reference to the above link

13:04:35 [darobin]

http://www.w3.org/TR/html51/dom.html#the-translate-attribute

13:04:50 [pnietoca]

Felix: Encourage to look at the latest version of translate HTML

13:05:00 [pnietoca]

.. in the spec

13:05:43 [pnietoca]

Yves: Looking at the text that is currently there, the attributte style

13:06:06 [pnietoca]

... is like a script

13:06:20 [pnietoca]

.. why not a list of script attributtes there?

13:06:32 [pnietoca]

Robin: It's terrible practice

13:07:03 [pnietoca]

Felix: Putting the last reference from Robin in the spec

13:07:17 [pnietoca]

.. it's ok with everybody?

13:07:27 [pnietoca]

.. Agreed

13:08:02 [pnietoca]

Felix: Talking with Robin about Ruby in HTML5 and the dropped one in ITS

13:08:32 [pnietoca]

Felix: Would it be good to have a reference to the HTML spec for the moemnt?

13:08:34 [darobin]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/text-level-semantics.html#the-ruby-element

13:09:22 [pnietoca]

Robin: They are going to update it, so look to the latest version

13:10:38 [pnietoca]

Yves: Still something to do, correct the text about the use of translate XML vs HTML

13:12:25 [pnietoca]

Felix: Showing how to point to HTML spec from the data category table

13:17:04 [daveL]

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13:21:20 [pnietoca]

.. Felix changing the spec with the reference and needed text about translate attribute

13:25:40 [pnietoca]

Felix: The case of translate is similar to language information, too many different behaviours

13:27:46 [pnietoca]

Felix: We need to summarise the behaviour in a note of as of writing

13:29:29 [pnietoca]

Karl: Provide examples of the predefined list of attributes

13:32:13 [Marcis]

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13:34:30 [pnietoca]

Karl: Suggests not to have two subsequent links to HTML5 in the translate section of spec

13:35:44 [pnietoca]

Felix: Seggests to change from TEI to another interchange format for the next spec

13:35:52 [fsasaki]

action: daveL to ping lerory to update tests for translate in html5 and elements within text

13:35:52 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-512 - Ping lerory to update tests for translate in html5 and elements within text [on David Lewis - due 2013-05-14].

13:36:39 [pnietoca]

Felix: New issues forbidden :)

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14:01:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

14:06:43 [Marcis]

Hi Felix

14:07:14 [Marcis]

Now I do not hear you

14:07:44 [fsasaki]

we are restarting gotomeeting

14:07:49 [fsasaki]

from a different computer

14:08:20 [fsasaki]

can you leave the call and dial in the call? 682-416-317

14:08:37 [fsasaki]

sorry for the inconvinience

14:08:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

14:09:02 [fsasaki]

topic: ITS 2.0 Enriched Terminology Annotation Showcase

14:10:08 [Marcis]

We can try

14:10:11 [Marcis]

(Skype)

14:13:19 [Marcis]

Tatiana's Skype name is kumeliite_1

14:15:00 [fsasaki]

tatiana: how you see the most recent version of the showcase

14:15:09 [fsasaki]

.. implements all of the required functionality

14:15:12 [pnietoca]

Tatiana: Show Tilde's demo of ITS enryched Term

14:15:22 [fsasaki]

.. annotating plain text example

14:15:35 [fsasaki]

demo shows how to upload a file to be annotated

14:15:52 [fsasaki]

tatiana: choose one of three languages. Now showing English

14:15:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

14:16:20 [fsasaki]

tatiana: first annotation option is statistical annotation. 2nd is term bank based annotation

14:16:48 [fsasaki]

tatiana: orange term candidates

14:17:10 [fsasaki]

.. source shows how these are mapped to ITS. You can download annotated document

14:17:39 [fsasaki]

.. html "script" element contains term list

14:17:51 [fsasaki]

.. the html body contains references to terms from that list

14:19:21 [fsasaki]

marcis: termConfidence not given is term is comming from term bank

14:19:22 [fsasaki]

.. in html5 document you have a tbx format term entry

14:20:35 [fsasaki]

marcis: now example of annotation with html5 as input

14:20:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki

14:21:28 [fsasaki]

topic: "translate" definition

14:21:54 [fsasaki]

to be moved in the final minutes

14:22:04 [fsasaki]

now xliff examples

14:24:11 [fsasaki_]

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14:25:31 [fsasaki_]

now q/a

14:25:41 [fsasaki_]

dave: do you prioritze term bank over statistical system

14:25:45 [dF]

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14:25:47 [fsasaki_]

.. what do you do if you get a clash?

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14:26:22 [fsasaki_]

tatiana: you can switch

14:26:32 [fsasaki_]

.. e.g. having results only proceeded by statistical tool

14:26:39 [fsasaki_]

.. or you can have only euroterm bank results

14:26:48 [fsasaki_]

dave: what do you do if a word is matched in both?

14:26:56 [fsasaki_]

marcis: whenever you select term bank

14:27:01 [fsasaki_]

.. there is a filtering step

14:27:10 [fsasaki_]

.. not to put a heavy burden on the term bank

14:27:19 [fsasaki_]

.. in order to narrow down search space in term bank

14:27:33 [fsasaki_]

.. we select term candidates with statistics, then do term search in the term bank

14:28:01 [fsasaki_]

.. a user can select whether she wants to see the results of statistics or also term bank

14:28:09 [fsasaki_]

dave: the schema for the term entries in html?

14:28:16 [fsasaki_]

marcis: that are tbx entries

14:28:32 [fsasaki_]

dave: had you planned to offer this as a restful web service?

14:28:39 [fsasaki_]

marcis: it can be accessed as a web service api

14:28:48 [fsasaki_]

.. what you see is just a visual interface for humans

14:29:04 [fsasaki_]

.. everything what you send to a web page calls the service

14:29:30 [fsasaki_]

dave: did you document the web service interface? can the other partners use that?

14:29:42 [fsasaki_]

marcis: the documentation will contain the API description as well

14:29:53 [fsasaki_]

tatiana: this is just an interface to showcase the solution

14:30:42 [fsasaki_]

tatiana: example of the agricultural domain

14:30:53 [fsasaki_]

.. that annotation gives quite a lot of terminology tagged

14:39:26 [darobin]

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki_

15:30:53 [fsasaki_]

WWW/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/