See also: IRC log
rrsagent make log world
<jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltfJun182012/results
<scribe> Scribenick: Joshue
JN: We will look at the first
item in the survey.
... Detlev comments on your comment?
... Flow to seems to be poorly supported, based on Lorettas
input.
DF: Flow seems to be poorly supported
JN: Loretta, what is level of support for advisory techs?
LGR: This won't be up to the
standard of most advisory techs.
... We like to include these to encourage development and
support.
... ARIA is in a diff state to HTML5.
DF: If it is advisory, there should be some level of support included etc, or should it be restricted to some environments.
LGR: Advisory means it doesn't
meet certain success criteria.
... It is a problem of motivation. We won't make progress if we
tell people not to use certain attributes etc.
... It may be useful to document these things to encourage
use.
DF: That is fair.
LGR: Josh can you post the ARIA examples you were working on?
JOC: Yup.
JN: Is there a spot we can host stuff in W3C space?
<discussion on this topic>
JN: Should we state in our techs if we think it won't satisfy our SC?
LGR: Good idea
JOC: My tests with aria-flowto were encouraging
JN: So it is encouraging
JOC: Yes
LGR: So I will incorporate Joshs
comments.
... Discusses with Adam use of language in techs.
AS: I am a little worried about confusion with use of 'should' for the author.
LGR: It should be expressed in terms of what is true about the content on the page.
AS: Ok, I'll revise.
LGR: Appreciated.
JN: Is that ok?
MJ: Maybe preface it that
aria-flowto is for AT.
... This may need to be clearer. It should state that its
ignored by browser.
JN: Its not ignored by browser but is exposed to the A11y APIs. This applies to everything ARIA.
MJ: What about and extension that aids the use of landmarks etc? Would the extension be AT?
JN: Fine line, ARIA is intended for A11y API
+1 to adding to tech note
JN: We can call out exceptions.
LGR: The line between AT and browser extensions is fuzzy.
<discussion of A11y APIs,DOM access and browser extensions>
MJ: Maybe just include something in the note then?
JN: I like having the note in the description.
LGR: I'll put some more context in but the larger discussion of AT ARIA belongs in the tech notes.
JN: Ok, next. Using aria-label to provide an invisible label
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-label_to_provide_an_invisible_label
JN: Loretta you want the title clarified?
LGR: Am concerned about 1.1.1 use
JN: This is 3.3.2
<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-label_to_provide_an_invisible_label
<some confusion about tech>
+1
AS: Is this not about having an invisible label on the page?
DF: Am not sure this is correct.
LGR: This is great as a 4.1.2
tech
... Trickier as 3.3.2 as that is about visible labels etc
... Must be visible to everyone not just AT users.
... We have something like this for <title>
DF: My concern was to create a
space where it makes sense rather than an img or div that is
declared to be a button as it is better supported by AT.
... Haven't seen much use in the wild labelled with
aria-label.
... Is this a driver for devs?
JN: The same example would be great (and I've seen them) - with a background image on top.
DF: a <Div> with
role='button'?
... Having off screen positioned text would be better or @alt
text.
... Maybe they don't have to be compared.
JN: As long as it is sufficient.
LGR: We try to document if there
is some support.
... Am looking at use of <title>, there is a similar
situation. There is a visual cue augmented with labels.
<jamesn> H65
LGR: We need to make this more like H65 edit the title and desc to reflect we are augmenting content
<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/H65
LGR: Is aria works for 1.1.1 and 1.3.2, don't know why they are in H65.
JN: I think its for labels for form fields.
DF: So the diff with aria-label
is that you don't produce a tooltip?
... Should it be clear that aria-label applies where visibly it
is clear what the control is to do?
LGR: In the context of 3.3.2 - where there should be label. The idea is that it doesn't need a label as its context should be clear.
DF: Should we link it to 4.1.2 and 1.3.1 and broaden its scope?
LGR: I think we are looking at these features independently.
JOC: I can see why that is a little confusing..
DF: But a technqiue can meet several SC. Should we not have one mapped to several SCs? I don't have a problem with that.
LGR: I agree, we may need to
revise.
... This may be a situation where you don't need a label for
example.
JOC: AFAIK this is about providing a label for non sighted people where the label may be apparent to sighted people.
DF: Thats my understanding.
JOC: There is a disconnect.
DF: We should apply all techniques where this is applicable.
LGR: There is another labelled techniqe on the survey.
DF: Maybe the other examples are more applicable.
LGR: We want labelledby in 3.3.2
JOC: Maybe we need to be a little fuzzy about how some these techs interact.
DF: We need to look at the mapping between these.
:-)
JOC: We can do housekeeping as we go on.
JN: Ok, Detlev you had comments
in your own technique?
... HTML5 spec states that aria-label will only work on certain
controls.
DF: Am concerned about where native semantics should be used over ARIA.
LGR: Am appreciative of people testing use cases.
JN: My comments were minor.
... Am concerned about adding content editable itself.
DF: It is supported in some browsers/AT.
JN: However, this tech isn't
about content editable. Maybe we should have a note about that
part.
... We will have a technique for content editable, right?
JOC: But you don't use content editable on its own, it has to have an aria-label or similar?
JN: Right.
<discussion>
DF: We need a warning etc and notes etc.
JN: Can we cross ref techs?
LGR: Yup
... It would be good so see a live example that conforms to
SC.
rrsaggent, make minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found ScribeNick: Joshue Inferring Scribes: Joshue WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AS DF Detlev JN JOC James_Nurthen Joshue LGR Loretta Loretta_ MJ Marc_Johlic Oracle P21 P22 P3 Scribenick adam adam_ adam_solomon from https inserted jamesn marcjohlic You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Got date from IRC log name: 18 Jun 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/18-html-techs-tf-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]