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<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB
<scribe> Scribe: Art
Date: 06 March 2012
AB: I posted a draft agenda
yesterday
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html.
After that, Scott González posted a link to some work he has
done and I'd like to add that to the agenda.
... any objections to adding that topic?
DS: that would be great
AB: ok, so we'll do that and add
it right after Annoucements
... any other change requests for the agenda?
AB: any short announcements for today?
MB: I will represent Mozilla in the PAG
AB: that's excellent Matt
AB: yesterday, Scott mentioned the work he has been doing comparing our Touch Events with MSPointer Events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0024.html.
SG: I'm working on normalizing pointer events in jQuery
… one of the things I noticed is the divergence in touch events
… My doc compares the two approaches
… includes the pros and cons
… I haven't found anyone using MSPointer
… I list the technical diffs
… both support multiple points
… I assume there are UCs for knowing if >1 touch occurs at the same time
… If anyone knows of some UCs for this, it would be good to know
… Both systems allow getting a list of the touches
… have to start from an event object in both cases
… If only care about 1 touch at a time, MSPointer is a bit easier
… With Touches, need to go to the list so a bit cumbersome
DS: would you please distinguish these two as Webkit versus IE models?
SG: yes, I can do that
... in webkit have the touch arrays
… and from there can get the touch point data
… In IE model, the data is directly on the Event
… because the data is always for a specific pointer
… In IE will get 2 events: 1 for the first finger and a second event for the 2nd touch
SG: WK model has no concept of hovering
… at least not built in
MB: in the v2 spec, we added enter and leave events
SG: the IE model does support hovering
… IE normalizes all pointer events into a MSPointer event
… so they do have a concept of hover
… a bit cumbersome though with touch, especially with a stylus
… Don't have full hover but that's probably a h/w limitation
DS: yes, I agree that's probably a hardware limitation
SG: MSPointer does have some future proofing
… i.e. it is easy to add new pointer devices
… currently supports pen, stylus, mouse and such but can add new devices
… Need to document more about the interaction with mouse events
… When devs are writing custom code for gestures, the data is async
… f.ex. for a swipe, need to know direction, and perhaps some other things
… This now requires a lot of custom code
… because may want to prevent the native handling
… Need some UCs from developers and the issues they are running into
AB: any comments, questions?
DS: thanks for the summary and mentioning pain point
… Do you have a sense of the +/- of both models?
SG: I've built an abstraction around mouse, pointer, touch
… I tend to think MSPointer is easier to work with
… Don't have to walk thru any arrays
… So I think it is a bit nicer but I haven't built anything advanced yet
DS: would it be possible to get some members of jQuery community to give us some feedback
… re both models i.e. the +/- of each
SG: yes, I think I can get some of that info
… i.e. try to find what people like and the pros and cons of each (IE vs. Webkit)
… I don't think the WK model is intuitive
… but people are now used to it
… When they then switch to MSPointer, there is a learning curve
… and that's unfortunate but the reality developers must face
SG: going back to the drawback to both models, that affects mouse
… causes problems f.ex. with text selection
DS: I have seen some comments about IE model being more amenable to an app that works across devices
… can start with one touch and then extend
SG: if there was a generic pointer event could stop using mouse
… one model would indeed be ideal
DS: I started down that path with D3E and touch events
… but we decided to do touch in a separate spec
SG: if we had a standard similar to pointer, an abstraction over Webkit would make sense
<mbrubeck> Mozilla also had a separate-event-per-pointer model before implementing the WebKit/W3C model: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_experimental%29
… and we could then add something like that to jQ
MB: Mozilla implemented our own Touch API for Windows
… like MSPointer event uses one event per touch
… it doesn't have getPointerList method
… which is a good addition
… if the app needs to know the number of touch points
… With IE can get that data
DS: we had proposed something like that for the keyboard model [D3E]
… if we were going to do something like that, would probably make sense to have methods to get all touches and another to get all keys pressed
AB: what do we do with this information and what specific follow-on action(s) are there?
DS: I think Scott agreed to do
followup on the +/- of both approaches
... I just want to be clear that this IP issue means that some
touch event libraries can also be affected
AB: I've been wondering how widely known is this IP disclosure
SG: I think most web developers think there is a touch standard
… a lot of confusion about what's going on and the state of the TE spec
SG: we will not abstract to MSPointer because it is not a standard
… and we will not normalize to W3C Touch Events because of the PAG
… However, if the PAG says that is OK, then that is good
… and then we can abstract on top of the TE spec
… but we won't do that until the PAG is clear here
SG: jQuery won't release a normalization layer if the feature is not a standard
… because to do so is bad for the Web
… We want to focus on standards
… and to help the W3C
DS: thanks for that information Scott
… it's good to know a standard is mandatory to be considered for a normalization layer
AB: the Touch Events PAG http://www.w3.org/2012/01/touch-pag-charter
has now met twice and the minutes are Member-confidential
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-te-pag/
... I'll give a brief summary of the status but we will *not*
talk any specifics about the IP Apple disclosed
AB: any other topics for
today?
... re the next call, it will be scheduled when needed
... meeting adjourned
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/cause probs/causes problems/ Succeeded: s/getTouch/getPointerList/ Succeeded: s/most people/most web developers/ Found ScribeNick: ArtB Found Scribe: Art Default Present: +1.717.578.aaaa, +1.781.266.aabb, Cathy, +358.718.00aacc, scottgonzalez, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.792.aadd, mbrubeck, Art_Barstow Present: Art_Barstow Cathy_Chan Doug_Schepers Matt_Brubeck Scott_Gonzalez Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html Found Date: 06 Mar 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]