15:05:22 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/10/18/first-draft-of-a-provenance-data-model-published/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/10/18/first-draft-of-a-provenance-data-model-published/ ←

15:05:26 <dgarijo> Khalid sends regrets

Daniel Garijo: Khalid sends regrets ←

15:05:28 <StephenCresswell> ... there's a blog post from Ivan

... there's a blog post from Ivan ←

15:05:35 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/ ←

15:05:47 <StephenCresswell> ... is the official link to use

... is the official link to use ←

15:05:52 <pgroth> Twitter hashtag: #provwg

Paul Groth: Twitter hashtag: #provwg ←

15:06:17 <StephenCresswell> ... we want to encourage people to talk about on their blogs etc.

... we want to encourage people to talk about on their blogs etc. ←

15:06:23 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo ←

15:06:30 <StephenCresswell> ... to get multiple perspectives

... to get multiple perspectives ←

15:06:40 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q ←

15:06:43 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←

15:06:45 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:06:49 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q ←

15:06:51 <StephenCresswell> +q

+q ←

15:07:10 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo ←

15:07:12 <satya> @Paul: Was there a question for me? Sorry I joined a bit late

Satya Sahoo: @Paul: Was there a question for me? Sorry I joined a bit late ←

15:07:18 <pgroth> no satya

Paul Groth: no satya ←

15:07:33 <StephenCresswell> dgarijo: comments said that model was a bit complex, how are we going to make it more simple

Daniel Garijo: comments said that model was a bit complex, how are we going to make it more simple ←

15:07:44 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: a number of ways

Paul Groth: a number of ways ←

15:07:46 <pgroth> ack StephenCresswell

Paul Groth: ack StephenCresswell ←

15:07:47 <GK> q+ to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex

Graham Klyne: q+ to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex ←

15:08:22 <GK> The comment address should be in the draft

Graham Klyne: The comment address should be in the draft ←

15:08:35 <dgarijo> maybe more examples? The comments also wanted to see the RDF serialization (prov-o).

Daniel Garijo: maybe more examples? The comments also wanted to see the RDF serialization (prov-o). ←

15:08:36 <Luc> they can subscribe to the mailing list

Luc Moreau: they can subscribe to the mailing list ←

15:08:38 <StephenCresswell> where should the comments go?

where should the comments go? ←

15:08:48 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: to the mailing list

Paul Groth: to the mailing list ←

15:08:59 <Luc> instructions are at the beginning of document

Luc Moreau: instructions are at the beginning of document ←

15:09:13 <StephenCresswell> GK: Do they normally have a separate mailing list?

Graham Klyne: Do they normally have a separate mailing list? ←

15:09:17 <GK> Doc requests comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org

Graham Klyne: Doc requests comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org ←

15:09:18 <Luc> ... it's standard text from w3c

Luc Moreau: ... it's standard text from w3c ←

15:09:55 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+ ←

15:09:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:09:57 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK ←

15:09:57 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex ←

15:10:03 <satya> @GK: agree

Satya Sahoo: @GK: agree ←

15:10:05 <stain> @GK +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @GK +1 ←

15:10:08 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc ←

15:10:18 <StephenCresswell> GK: It may be not the model that is complex, or is it just the presentation of the model that is complex?

Graham Klyne: It may be not the model that is complex, or is it just the presentation of the model that is complex? ←

15:10:27 <jcheney> +q

James Cheney: +q ←

15:10:32 <dgarijo> @GK yes, maybe I didn't express myself correctly, sorry.

Daniel Garijo: @GK yes, maybe I didn't express myself correctly, sorry. ←

15:10:44 <stain> no,  not publiclally subscribable. I was redirected to password-protected   http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/

Stian Soiland-Reyes: no, not publiclally subscribable. I was redirected to password-protected http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/ ←

15:10:59 <StephenCresswell> Luc: We have to explore presentation first, and then maybe think about why the model is complex, but maybe it needs to be complex

Luc Moreau: We have to explore presentation first, and then maybe think about why the model is complex, but maybe it needs to be complex ←

15:11:15 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←

15:11:26 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←

15:11:28 <paolo> zakim, ??p12 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??p12 is me ←

15:11:28 <Zakim> +paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +paolo; got it ←

15:11:31 <StephenCresswell> ... thinking about starting the data model with the most common relations

... thinking about starting the data model with the most common relations ←

15:11:37 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P12 (11%), ne (94%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P12 (11%), ne (94%) ←

15:11:37 <satya> @Luc: +1 we should concentrate on presentation but not try to modify the model itself to make it more readable

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: +1 we should concentrate on presentation but not try to modify the model itself to make it more readable ←

15:12:01 <stain> @GK just needs some bass

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @GK just needs some bass ←

15:12:07 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←

15:12:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, kai?, stain, ne, [ISI], ??P29, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P35, ??P37, Satya_Sahoo,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P3, pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, kai?, stain, ne, [ISI], ??P29, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P35, ??P37, Satya_Sahoo, ←

15:12:10 <Zakim> ... paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: ... paolo ←

15:12:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see dcorsar, vinh, paolo, Lena, Christine, edoardo, Yogesh, YolandaGil, zednik, kai, jcheney, dgarijo, Curt, StephenCresswell, satya, Luc, tlebo, GK, GK1, Zakim, RRSAgent,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dcorsar, vinh, paolo, Lena, Christine, edoardo, Yogesh, YolandaGil, zednik, kai, jcheney, dgarijo, Curt, StephenCresswell, satya, Luc, tlebo, GK, GK1, Zakim, RRSAgent, ←

15:12:13 <Zakim> ... pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro ←

15:12:34 <stain> > This is a response to a message apparently sent from your address to

Stian Soiland-Reyes: > This is a response to a message apparently sent from your address to ←

15:12:40 <paolo> +1 for a two-tier dissemination strategy

Paolo Missier: +1 for a two-tier dissemination strategy ←

15:12:43 <stain> > public-prov-wg@w3.org: Your message has NOT been distributed to the list

Stian Soiland-Reyes: > public-prov-wg@w3.org: Your message has NOT been distributed to the list ←

15:12:47 <paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+ ←

15:12:49 <stain> so it does not work to email from the outside either

Stian Soiland-Reyes: so it does not work to email from the outside either ←

15:12:50 <StephenCresswell> jcheney: Paolo was giving view of this at conference, he said it may be good idea to start with a subset of ideas that are familiar through OPM etc.

James Cheney: Paolo was giving view of this at conference, he said it may be good idea to start with a subset of ideas that are familiar through OPM etc. ←

15:12:50 <StephenCresswell> ... (gone quiet)

... (gone quiet) ←

15:12:52 <GK> q+ to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff

Graham Klyne: q+ to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff ←

15:12:56 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:13:01 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney ←

15:13:05 <StephenCresswell> ... (I didn't hear anything)

... (I didn't hear anything) ←

15:13:05 <pgroth> ack paolo

Paul Groth: ack paolo ←

15:13:40 <stain> ah, I just need to say it's allowed in the publication.. then it should be fine to post for outsiders, yes

Stian Soiland-Reyes: ah, I just need to say it's allowed in the publication.. then it should be fine to post for outsiders, yes ←

15:13:45 <StephenCresswell> Paolo: Make distinction between core concepts and newer things

Paolo Missier: Make distinction between core concepts and newer things ←

15:14:09 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+ ←

15:14:19 <StephenCresswell> ... people ask how it is different from OPM ... make distinction between top tier and second tier

... people ask how it is different from OPM ... make distinction between top tier and second tier ←

15:14:23 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK ←

15:14:23 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff ←

15:14:27 <YolandaGil> +1

Yolanda Gil: +1 ←

15:14:33 <YolandaGil> q+

Yolanda Gil: q+ ←

15:14:40 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q- ←

15:14:46 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+ ←

15:14:55 <StephenCresswell> GK: I've been starting to draft something about the issue of relationship between resources and entities, from developer perspective,

Graham Klyne: I've been starting to draft something about the issue of relationship between resources and entities, from developer perspective, ←

15:15:08 <StephenCresswell> ... intend to contribute

... intend to contribute ←

15:15:09 <pgroth> ack YolandaGil

Paul Groth: ack YolandaGil ←

15:15:47 <tlebo> FROM @MacTed ASK WHERE { [ foaf:nick "Tall Ted" ] foaf:holdsAccount [ foaf:accountName "MacTed" ] } . }

Timothy Lebo: FROM @MacTed ASK WHERE { [ foaf:nick "Tall Ted" ] foaf:holdsAccount [ foaf:accountName "MacTed" ] } . } ←

15:15:48 <StephenCresswell> Yolanda: Was trying extract core ideas to write primer document.

Yolanda Gil: Was trying extract core ideas to write primer document. ←

15:15:52 <paolo> q?

Paolo Missier: q? ←

15:15:57 <StephenCresswell> ... some of the examples are hard to relate to

... some of the examples are hard to relate to ←

15:16:38 <GK> Slightly related to this discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0156.html

Graham Klyne: Slightly related to this discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0156.html ←

15:16:44 <GK> Yolanda +1

Graham Klyne: Yolanda +1 ←

15:16:45 <StephenCresswell> ... some of the the definitions , or how terms are used elsewhere in document, are confusing

... some of the the definitions , or how terms are used elsewhere in document, are confusing ←

15:17:12 <stain> @YolandaGil +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @YolandaGil +1 ←

15:17:26 <tlebo> +1 to stop making contrived examples when there are many real examples to handle

Timothy Lebo: +1 to stop making contrived examples when there are many real examples to handle ←

15:17:29 <satya> @Yolanda +1

Satya Sahoo: @Yolanda +1 ←

15:17:39 <StephenCresswell> ... may less contrived, more natural examples, more like the way we would use provenance, would help

... may less contrived, more natural examples, more like the way we would use provenance, would help ←

15:17:53 <tlebo> attempt of a list http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

Timothy Lebo: attempt of a list http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples ←

15:17:54 <dgarijo> @Yolanda +1

Daniel Garijo: @Yolanda +1 ←

15:17:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:18:10 <StephenCresswell> ... perhaps end-to-end example using linked data

... perhaps end-to-end example using linked data ←

15:18:46 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  Would help to get a reflection of the data model in RDF would help

Paul Groth: Would help to get a reflection of the data model in RDF would help ←

15:19:00 <GK> @pgroth: +1 helps to see examples in RDF, but these can still look complicated

Graham Klyne: @pgroth: +1 helps to see examples in RDF, but these can still look complicated ←

15:19:18 <StephenCresswell> ... we should look at smaller things to help people understand what the data model says

... we should look at smaller things to help people understand what the data model says ←

15:19:20 <satya> @Paul +1 and maybe with an intuitive example will help

Satya Sahoo: @Paul +1 and maybe with an intuitive example will help ←

15:19:24 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+ ←

15:19:28 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←

15:19:37 <StephenCresswell> ... it's nice to have the RDF as well as abstract syntax

... it's nice to have the RDF as well as abstract syntax ←

15:20:05 <dgarijo> we have some examples in RDF in the ontology document.

Daniel Garijo: we have some examples in RDF in the ontology document. ←

15:20:11 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+ ←

15:20:16 <tlebo> RDF/XML :-(

Timothy Lebo: RDF/XML :-( ←

15:20:17 <StephenCresswell> satya: linked data, bioinformatics, sensor data, has lots of examples

Satya Sahoo: linked data, bioinformatics, sensor data, has lots of examples ←

15:20:39 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:20:41 <StephenCresswell> ... maybe better than filesystem examples

... maybe better than filesystem examples ←

15:20:43 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya ←

15:20:45 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q- ←

15:21:16 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  We have the example that we all agreed on previously ... data journalism example

Paul Groth: We have the example that we all agreed on previously ... data journalism example ←

15:21:16 <satya> @Paul: I guess I am saying a non-computer science example may help?

Satya Sahoo: @Paul: I guess I am saying a non-computer science example may help? ←

15:21:21 <Luc> we have always said this example was a placeholder ... if someone has a better one, than let's use it. The data journalism is too long for prov-dm document.

Luc Moreau: we have always said this example was a placeholder ... if someone has a better one, than let's use it. The data journalism is too long for prov-dm document. ←

15:21:25 <GK> +1 (need examples that demonstrate simple ideas)

Graham Klyne: +1 (need examples that demonstrate simple ideas) ←

15:21:51 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q? ←

15:21:53 <StephenCresswell> ... concentrate on some simple things that everyone would need to say  e.g. authorship, quote relation

... concentrate on some simple things that everyone would need to say e.g. authorship, quote relation ←

15:21:53 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←

15:22:17 <pgroth> Topic: Connection Task Force

<StephenCresswell> summary:  Kai reported on the recent Connection TF telcon, discussing what the future role of the TF would be.  The proposal is firstly to collect mailing lists of interested communities, and secondly to reach out to specific groups through organising joint telcons involving appropriate WG members.  It was agreed that this approach would help towards the Best Practice Cookbook deliverable from the charter, and that it would be preferable to begin that activity when friendlier documents have been produced - which would be around January 2012.

15:22:22 <tlebo> += http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples#Who_is_the_author_of_a_document

15:22:22 <satya> We can revisit some of the example scenarios from the PROV XG also

15:22:41 <tlebo> @satya, pointer to XG's list?

15:22:47 <dgarijo> @satya: well, the first one wasn't the data journalism example?

15:22:48 <StephenCresswell> kai: We have telecon discussing what we will do with connection TF,

15:22:54 <pgroth> q?

15:23:01 <StephenCresswell> ... so far we have informal rep ... more or less finished

15:23:09 <StephenCresswell> ... it should be a living document

15:23:09 <Zakim> +??P2

15:23:21 <StephenCresswell> ... eric and kai will be a contact

15:23:34 <StephenCresswell> ... What will we do next?

15:23:45 <dgarijo> @tlebo: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/#Analysis_of_The_State_of_the_Art

15:23:53 <StephenCresswell> ... one thing is to identify mailing lists

15:23:55 <tlebo> thx

15:24:15 <StephenCresswell> ... we don't want to be seen as the people who actually communicate with all these connections

15:24:24 <satya> @Daniel: agree but maybe we should avoid CS jargon - since many of our targeted users are non-CS

15:24:29 <StephenCresswell> ... it would just add another step to communications

15:24:45 <StephenCresswell> ... We brainstormed on what else we could provide

15:24:51 <dgarijo> @tlebo: 5.3.1, 5.3.2 and 5.3.3 are the 3 3 scenario.

15:25:05 <StephenCresswell> ... We thought about organising additional telecons

15:25:25 <StephenCresswell> ... we other groups, e.g. creative commons

15:25:31 <pgroth> q?

15:25:41 <StephenCresswell> ... What does the group think?

15:25:44 <dgarijo> @Satya: what does CS mean?

15:25:55 <satya> @Tim: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario

15:25:58 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: Still a lot to do in engaging with other groups

15:26:13 <satya> @daniel: computer science

15:26:14 <Luc> q+ to mention the best practice deliverable

15:26:21 <StephenCresswell> ... e.g. kai involved with DC group

15:26:26 <dgarijo> @satya: thx!

15:26:27 <pgroth> q?

15:26:47 <StephenCresswell> Luc: In charter we have Best Practive deliverable

15:27:38 <StephenCresswell> ... would involve technical work on how integrate e.g. creative commons work

15:27:42 <YolandaGil> +q

15:27:45 <pgroth> ack Luc

15:27:45 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to mention the best practice deliverable

15:28:05 <StephenCresswell> kai: That's sort of thing what we might discuss on new telcons

15:28:39 <pgroth> ack YolandaGil

15:28:52 <StephenCresswell> kai: What can be our role where we are not bridge persons?

15:28:56 <Zakim> -stain

15:29:15 <Zakim> +stain

15:29:23 <paolo> have to leave, apologies

15:29:42 <Zakim> -paolo

15:29:44 <StephenCresswell> yolanda: There are not many people on connection TF, and it is too daunting to look at technical integration at all these areas ourselves

15:30:08 <StephenCresswell> ... we need to set up discussions in these separate areas

15:30:26 <pgroth> q?

15:31:00 <StephenCresswell> ... telcons would be vehicle to get more people participating, and the outcome from calls would move us towards best practice deliverables

15:31:20 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: seems like a good way forwards

15:32:12 <StephenCresswell> yolanda: Maybe people will be scared off by prov-dm document, and maybe we should hold off until we have more accessible documents

15:32:33 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: seems reasonable to wait for primer etc.

15:32:40 <pgroth> q?

15:32:53 <Luc> we should use the w3c teleconference system for those calls, and we need to book them ahead

15:33:05 <Luc> +1 for January

15:33:14 <StephenCresswell> yolanda: maybe we can schedule for later ... e.g. December, January

15:33:24 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O

<StephenCresswell> summary: Tim reported on the RDF-WG F2F meeting.  The WG has now resolved to make a distinction between the concepts RDF graph, graph container, and graph serialisation.  This is helpful for us, but has led to a mismatch with the work of the SPARQL-WG.  More interaction between the three WGs is required to ensure that the distinction is established and maintained.  See Tim's explanation on wiki for details.  The use of named graphs for accounts depends on this issue.

15:33:33 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  January seems best.

15:33:45 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Reflections_from_RDF-WG_F2F2 : one good (3 terms), two bad (conflating GraphContainer and Graph; sd:name doesn't identify), one opportunity (reconciling SPARQL-WG, RDF-WG, PROV-WG)

15:34:26 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: Some feedback on F2F (named graphs)

15:34:42 <StephenCresswell> ... they have resolved to distinguish

15:34:51 <StephenCresswell> graph containers and graph serialisations

15:34:58 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts

15:35:30 <StephenCresswell> ... the clear distinction will help proposal

15:35:51 <StephenCresswell> ... they have some problem with the SPARQL WG

15:36:20 <StephenCresswell> ... vocabularies used to identify graph doesn't identify graph container

15:36:30 <StephenCresswell> ... needs to be solved in SPARQL WG

15:36:36 <pgroth> q?

15:37:03 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  Any impression on whether we just have to wait?

15:37:16 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: We need to be more proactive than that

15:37:43 <satya> @Tim: thanks! The distinction between g-snap and g-box seems to be special importance to this WG

15:37:47 <satya> @tim: agree

15:37:50 <pgroth> q?

15:37:54 <StephenCresswell> ... we need to interact more to make sure the clear distinction is established and maintained

15:38:29 <StephenCresswell> GK: Concerned that we become dependent on what SPARQL WG say

15:39:19 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: Problem is that they have established RDF vocab to talk about endpoints, graphs etc., and they fail to make distinction

15:39:19 <Luc> there was a suggestion by Sandro to express the data journalism example, and trying to use some form of name graph, and learn from that

15:39:37 <StephenCresswell> GK:  Their problem or ours?

15:39:48 <pgroth> q?

15:40:11 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: Ours.  They could continue to ignore it and they would meet their aims.

15:40:26 <pgroth> q?

15:40:39 <pgroth> Topic: Update PROV-O

<StephenCresswell> summary: The status of the PROV-O document was discussed. The general consensus was that the document is ready for release if it contains all of the core concepts of the PROV-DM.  It does not have to express all of the constraints at this stage.  It should include some explanation of mapping of PROV-DM concepts, and some example of times associated with process executions.

15:40:47 <StephenCresswell> tlebo:  Discussion on named graphs for accounts is stalled by these problems.

15:41:00 <dgarijo> hmm, if we cannot use named graphs as accounts then we will have to include "accounts" on the ontology.

15:41:10 <dgarijo> once again.

15:41:32 <StephenCresswell> satya:  Luc joined ontology call and had suggestions before release of documents.

15:41:48 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aacc

15:41:50 <pgroth> q?

15:41:57 <Luc> q+

15:41:58 <GK> q+ top suggest an approach to simplifyingpresentation of the D<M might be via the ontology

15:42:05 <pgroth> q?

15:42:12 <StephenCresswell> ... on data model, it might make sense to withhold prov-o until readablity of dm doc is improved

15:42:24 <stain> @Luc +1 - let's do an agile first version

15:42:33 <stain> with lots of bugs :)

15:42:37 <pgroth> q?

15:42:38 <GK> q+ to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology

15:42:41 <StephenCresswell> Luc: Would be worried to delay prov-o document, we need serialisation, for primer etc.

15:42:52 <pgroth> ack Luc

15:43:12 <StephenCresswell> satya:  we can go ahead and release

15:43:18 <pgroth> q+

15:43:30 <jcheney> +q

15:43:31 <tlebo> PROV-O is not the RDF serialization?

15:43:33 <pgroth> ack GK

15:43:33 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology

15:43:37 <StephenCresswell> ...to clarify,  prov-o is not the RDF serialisation

15:44:24 <tlebo> so, PROV-O is RDF serialization + axioms?

15:44:31 <StephenCresswell> GK:  Maybe leave data model as it is, but look at ways through ontology and RDF representation, to make the simple things easy to say.

15:44:58 <pgroth> q?

15:45:08 <StephenCresswell> satya: Agree.  Think we have covered the mapping of all the terms in data model.

15:45:29 <dgarijo> @GK: Paul already proposed some shortcut fucntions

15:45:46 <Luc> q+

15:46:10 <StephenCresswell> GK: Shortcuts  may provide a less scary way to present examples

15:46:12 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions

15:46:20 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-prov-dm-20111018/#common-relations

15:46:50 <StephenCresswell> satya:  Are we considering these things to be part of core data model or as extensions?

15:46:54 <GK> My point was that the ontology could contain things not in the data model, or easier structures to represent DM structures

15:47:04 <pgroth> ack pgroth

15:47:05 <stain> q+

15:47:07 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: I consider them part of the core

15:47:19 <GK> .. i.e. not necessarily 1:1 correspondence between DM and O

15:47:35 <pgroth> q+

15:47:55 <StephenCresswell> jcheney: Data model uses abstract syntax, ontology uses RDF, but describes constraints and specialisations

15:48:06 <GK> I think the ontology effectively *does* define RDGF serialization

15:48:13 <pgroth> the RDF falls out of the Ontology

15:48:27 <stain> but not with any constraints of formats or implicit/explicit etc.

15:48:28 <StephenCresswell> ... but doesn't describe mapping to ontology

15:48:38 <stain> I assume PAQ should come with some minimum serialisation expectations

15:48:48 <GK> @pgroth yes that's what I meant to say :)

15:49:00 <stain> so you could use PROV-O in Manchester Syntax if you like, but don't expect too many applications to understand it

15:49:01 <MacTed> I don't understand "RDF serialization" nor "XML serialization" in this context. "RDF/XML serialization", yes.  or Turtle, N-Triples, etc.

15:49:09 <StephenCresswell> satya:  We tried to model DM classes and provide definitions.  What is mssing?

15:49:26 <pgroth> zakim, who is noisy?

15:49:33 <stain> XML serialisation CAN be a (restricted) RDF/XML serialisation

15:49:37 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (28%), ne (23%), Satya_Sahoo (4%)

15:49:39 <GK> ACtually it's 2-stage:  model -> abstract RDDF (ontology does that), then given that RDF-syntax gives RDF/XML.

15:50:26 <StephenCresswell> jcheney:  There's a deliverable about serialisation, is that intended to be serialisation of the of the ontology, or the mapping from the DM to the ontology?

15:50:41 <pgroth> q?

15:50:44 <pgroth> ack jcheney

15:50:46 <StephenCresswell> satya:  We will add some text on that.

15:51:05 <StephenCresswell> Luc:  On issue of time, there don't seem to be any time examples

15:51:16 <dgarijo> we talked about reusing some time ontologies.

15:51:28 <StephenCresswell> ... e.g. workflow example, can we have time in there?

15:51:33 <pgroth> q?

15:51:41 <pgroth> ack Luc

15:51:42 <StephenCresswell> satya: We will add e.g. start and stop time of processes.

15:51:46 <dgarijo> like : http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/

15:52:18 <tlebo> illustration of owl time: https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/raw/master/doc/ontology-diagrams/owl-time.pdf

15:52:39 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions I mean

15:52:53 <stain> if you are required to understand the extensions if you are "PROV-DM compliant"

15:53:11 <StephenCresswell> stain: Prov-DM extensions, are those something that we are required to understand?

15:53:16 <stain> or if it is optional, so that although PROV-O should have these terms, you don't need to understand it to be PROV-O compliant

15:53:29 <StephenCresswell> Luc: they are part of the data model

15:53:49 <dgarijo> @Satya: entities?

15:53:59 <pgroth> q?

15:54:00 <StephenCresswell> satya:  What are the domain and range of the relations?

15:54:13 <pgroth> ack stain

15:54:13 <GK> ?

15:54:21 <StephenCresswell> Luc: entities

15:54:22 <pgroth> q-

15:54:23 <pgroth> q?

15:55:08 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: It would be good to reflect everything in the DM into the ontology

15:55:22 <StephenCresswell> ... not necessarily all the contraints

15:55:26 <pgroth> q?

15:55:28 <tlebo> RDF examples for each construct are in the repository: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components

15:55:41 <tlebo> not complete, not correct, but there :-)

15:55:42 <GK> +1 need the vocabulary soonest, not nessecarily constraints

15:55:51 <StephenCresswell> satya: Primary aim should be to get all the terms modelled,

15:56:13 <StephenCresswell> ... but if you don't define all the domain, range etc.

15:56:28 <StephenCresswell> ... people have problems creating the RDF

15:56:43 <GK> +1 domain and range are helpful for generating RDF

15:57:14 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  Domain and range are mostly there anyway, the hierachies are not so important at this stage.

15:58:01 <pgroth> q?

15:58:02 <StephenCresswell> satya:  Agree, but OWL community won't like it.

15:58:18 <stain> example of XSD which happen to produce RDF/XML: https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/main/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/xsd/scufl2.xsd produces https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/test/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/example/workflowBundle.rdf

15:58:23 <pgroth> Topic: Discussion on Entity Attributes

<StephenCresswell> summary: Graham reported that he and Jim Myers have reached consensus that having attributes as part of characterisation is worthwhile because it aids interoperability, and that it is not necessary to distinguish characterising and non-characterising attributes.  It will be necessary to update document with this.

15:58:33 <stain> .. but you get strange double-nesting due to the property-class nature of RDF/XML

15:58:35 <GK> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0142.html

15:58:54 <Zakim> -tlebo

15:58:57 <StephenCresswell> GK: Link is to one of most recent messages,

15:59:11 <StephenCresswell> ... discussion between GK and Jim has converged

15:59:15 <Zakim> +tlebo

15:59:24 <StephenCresswell> ... to having attributes as part of characterisation

15:59:46 <StephenCresswell> ... to aid interoperability

16:00:16 <pgroth> q?

16:00:25 <StephenCresswell> ... Also agreed we don't have to distinguish between characterising and non-characterising attributes

16:00:33 <tlebo> I haven't read the most recent emails on this, but the last time we talked about this, "characterizing attributes" were trying to reinvent owl.

16:00:33 <Zakim> -Yogesh_Simmhan

16:00:54 <Luc> q+ to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval

16:00:58 <satya> @tim: +1

16:00:58 <tlebo> (sorry, call also dropped)

16:01:13 <stain> should we do a proposal and vote?

16:01:39 <StephenCresswell> Luc: Didn't mention whether a given attr has fixed value for some interval

16:01:43 <satya> q+

16:01:53 <tlebo> all attributes are fixed in an entity, no?

16:02:10 <StephenCresswell> GK: Any attr for entity is fixed for entity in what interval that entity exists.

16:02:26 <Zakim> -[ISI]

16:02:31 <StephenCresswell> GK: Argument for interop came from jim.

16:02:32 <pgroth> ack Luc

16:02:32 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval

16:02:33 <dgarijo> gotta go, sry.

16:02:43 <Zakim> -??P35

16:03:03 <StephenCresswell> ... looking at provenance challenge, the attrs were introduced to enable conversion of information between different formats

16:03:08 <Zakim> -kai

16:03:10 <Zakim> -dgarijo

16:03:19 <kai> sorry, have to leave timely

16:03:37 <tlebo> what is the brewing proposal we may vote on?

16:03:40 <StephenCresswell> ... the approach I was suggested could be seen as a dual to that

16:04:06 <StephenCresswell> Luc:  We will try to get that articulated so we can make the case in the doc.

16:04:28 <StephenCresswell> ... are there aspects of the document which conflict with what you agreed with Jim?

16:04:49 <StephenCresswell> GK:  Will clarify this.

16:04:53 <pgroth> q?

16:05:09 <pgroth> ack satya

16:05:39 <StephenCresswell> satya: What GK said is exactly what frames and slots do, and that carries over to OWL.

16:05:49 <tlebo> just as PROV is avoiding the Time and Location discussions, it should also avoid being a schema language.

16:06:18 <pgroth> q?

16:06:42 <StephenCresswell> satya:  To make it clear, it would help you don't explicitly carry around attributes of entity to be able to define it properly, that is done by typing information

16:06:48 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

16:06:49 <Zakim> -stain

16:06:52 <Zakim> -tlebo

16:06:53 <Zakim> -??P37

16:06:56 <Zakim> -Luc

16:06:57 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

16:06:57 <Zakim> -MacTed

16:07:03 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

16:07:05 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

16:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:07:11 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

16:07:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

16:07:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, stain, [ISI], kai?, ne, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed,

16:07:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:07:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:07:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

16:07:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

16:07:15 <Zakim> ... Satya_Sahoo, paolo, +1.509.375.aacc