IRC log of prov on 2011-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:42 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:53:42 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-irc
14:53:44 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:45 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #prov
14:53:46 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
14:53:46 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:53:47 [trackbot]: Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:47 [trackbot]: Date: 20 October 2011
14:53:55 [pgroth]: Zakim, this will be PROV
14:53:56 [Zakim]: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
14:54:11 [pgroth]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.10.20
14:54:15 [pgroth]: Chair: Paul Groth
14:54:22 [pgroth]: Scribe: Stephen Cresswell
14:54:41 [pgroth]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:01 [Yogesh]: Yogesh has joined #prov
14:55:02 [GK1]: GK1 has joined #prov
14:55:07 [pgroth]: Regrets: Paolo Missier, Reza B'Far, Ryan Golden
14:55:30 [tlbo]: tlbo has joined #prov
14:55:32 [StephenC]: StephenC has joined #prov
14:55:44 [GK]: GK has joined #prov
14:55:48 [tlebo]: tlebo has joined #prov
14:55:56 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:55:58 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
14:55:58 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:56:04 [Luc]: Luc has joined #prov
14:56:09 [pgroth]: Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:56:10 [Zakim]: +pgroth; got it
14:56:26 [satya]: satya has joined #prov
14:56:32 [StephenCresswell]: StephenCresswell has joined #prov
14:56:50 [Zakim]: +Luc
14:57:06 [pgroth]: hey graham, just out of curiosity why do you also have two irc names?
14:57:37 [Curt]: Curt has joined #prov
14:57:51 [GK1]: @paul I'm using two machines .. let's me track the IRC while digging around for dicuments, etc. :)
14:58:03 [Zakim]: +Yogesh_Simmhan
14:58:04 [pgroth]: cool :-)
14:58:45 [Zakim]: +??P10
14:59:06 [GK]: zakim, ??P10 is me
14:59:07 [Zakim]: +GK; got it
14:59:11 [Zakim]: +Curt_Tilmes
14:59:56 [stain]: hi, guys
14:59:57 [dgarijo]: dgarijo has joined #prov
15:00:09 [jcheney]: jcheney has joined #prov
15:00:41 [kai]: kai has joined #prov
15:00:56 [Zakim]: + +1.315.723.aaaa
15:01:09 [GK]: Hi Stian
15:01:10 [tlebo]: Zakim, aaaa is tlebo
15:01:10 [Zakim]: +tlebo; got it
15:01:20 [Zakim]: +??P26
15:01:22 [Zakim]: +stain
15:01:29 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:32 [zednik]: zednik has joined #prov
15:01:32 [pgroth]: Zakim, who is noisy?
15:01:35 [stain]: note to self: always pause between the seven keys
15:01:35 [kai]: zakim, +??P26 is probably me.
15:01:37 [Zakim]: sorry, kai, I do not understand your question
15:01:42 [Zakim]: +[ISI]
15:01:43 [Zakim]: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: stain (21%)
15:01:43 [kai]: zakim, ??P26 is probably me.
15:01:43 [Zakim]: +kai?; got it
15:01:45 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
15:01:51 [jcheney]: zakim, [IPCaller] is ne
15:01:51 [Zakim]: +ne; got it
15:01:56 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller.a]
15:02:09 [Zakim]: +??P29
15:02:15 [stain]: @kai does "probably" allow others to override..?
15:02:20 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:02:23 [kai]: probably ;-)
15:02:44 [dgarijo]: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:02:44 [Zakim]: +dgarijo; got it
15:02:48 [kai]: Only zakim knows
15:02:55 [Zakim]: + +1.518.633.aabb
15:03:03 [pgroth]: Topic: Admin
15:03:03 [Zakim]: +[OpenLink]
15:03:08 [pgroth]: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Oct 13 telecon
15:03:13 [MacTed]: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:03:13 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:03:13 [YolandaGil]: YolandaGil has joined #prov
15:03:14 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-10-13
15:03:16 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:03:17 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:03:25 [dgarijo]: +1
15:03:26 [Curt]: +1
15:03:26 [kai]: +1
15:03:27 [tlebo]: 0 (did not attend)
15:03:27 [StephenCresswell]: +1
15:03:33 [Zakim]: +??P35
15:03:34 [jcheney]: 0 (dna)
15:03:41 [stain]: 0 (not read them yet)
15:03:48 [YolandaGil]: 0
15:03:55 [Yogesh]: Yogesh has joined #prov
15:03:55 [edoardo]: edoardo has joined #prov
15:04:00 [pgroth]: ACCEPTED Minutes from last week
15:04:01 [Zakim]: +??P37
15:04:02 [GK]: 0 (not present)
15:04:11 [Christine]: Christine has joined #prov
15:04:20 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: reviewing action items
15:04:44 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes
15:04:52 [StephenCresswell]: ... Satya's action item on all items from data model in ontology .. we'll come back to it
15:05:05 [StephenCresswell]: ... scribes needed ...
15:05:05 [pgroth]: Topic: PROV-DM FPWD
15:05:22 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/10/18/first-draft-of-a-provenance-data-model-published/
15:05:26 [dgarijo]: Khalid sends regrets
15:05:28 [StephenCresswell]: ... there's a blog post from Ivan
15:05:35 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/
15:05:47 [StephenCresswell]: ... is the official link to use
15:05:52 [pgroth]: Twitter hashtag: #provwg
15:06:17 [StephenCresswell]: ... we want to encourage people to talk about on their blogs etc.
15:06:23 [Zakim]: +Satya_Sahoo
15:06:30 [StephenCresswell]: ... to get multiple perspectives
15:06:40 [pgroth]: +q
15:06:43 [pgroth]: ack pgroth
15:06:45 [pgroth]: q?
15:06:49 [dgarijo]: +q
15:06:51 [StephenCresswell]: +q
15:07:10 [pgroth]: ack dgarijo
15:07:12 [satya]: @Paul: Was there a question for me? Sorry I joined a bit late
15:07:18 [pgroth]: no satya
15:07:33 [StephenCresswell]: dgarijo: comments said that model was a bit complex, how are we going to make it more simple
15:07:44 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: a number of ways
15:07:46 [pgroth]: ack StephenCresswell
15:07:47 [GK]: q+ to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex
15:08:22 [GK]: The comment address should be in the draft
15:08:35 [dgarijo]: maybe more examples? The comments also wanted to see the RDF serialization (prov-o).
15:08:36 [Luc]: they can subscribe to the mailing list
15:08:38 [StephenCresswell]: where should the comments go?
15:08:48 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: to the mailing list
15:08:56 [Lena]: Lena has joined #prov
15:08:59 [Luc]: instructions are at the beginning of document
15:09:13 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Do they normally have a separate mailing list?
15:09:17 [GK]: Doc requests comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org
15:09:18 [Luc]: ... it's standard text from w3c
15:09:32 [paolo]: paolo has joined #prov
15:09:55 [Luc]: q+
15:09:55 [pgroth]: q?
15:09:57 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:09:57 [Zakim]: GK, you wanted to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex
15:10:03 [satya]: @GK: agree
15:10:05 [stain]: @GK +1
15:10:08 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:10:18 [StephenCresswell]: GK: It may be not the model that is complex, or is it just the presentation of the model that is complex?
15:10:27 [jcheney]: +q
15:10:32 [dgarijo]: @GK yes, maybe I didn't express myself correctly, sorry.
15:10:44 [stain]: no, not publiclally subscribable. I was redirected to password-protected http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/
15:10:46 [vinh]: vinh has joined #prov
15:10:59 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: We have to explore presentation first, and then maybe think about why the model is complex, but maybe it needs to be complex
15:11:15 [Zakim]: +??P12
15:11:26 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's noisy?
15:11:28 [paolo]: zakim, ??p12 is me
15:11:28 [Zakim]: +paolo; got it
15:11:31 [StephenCresswell]: ... thiinking about starting the data model with the most common relations
15:11:37 [Zakim]: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P12 (11%), ne (94%)
15:11:37 [satya]: @Luc: +1 we should concentrate on presentation but not try to modify the model itself to make it more readable
15:12:01 [stain]: @GK just needs some bass
15:12:02 [dcorsar]: dcorsar has joined #prov
15:12:07 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's here?
15:12:07 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P3, pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, kai?, stain, ne, [ISI], ??P29, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P35, ??P37, Satya_Sahoo,
15:12:10 [Zakim]: ... paolo
15:12:11 [Zakim]: On IRC I see dcorsar, vinh, paolo, Lena, Christine, edoardo, Yogesh, YolandaGil, zednik, kai, jcheney, dgarijo, Curt, StephenCresswell, satya, Luc, tlebo, GK, GK1, Zakim, RRSAgent,
15:12:13 [Zakim]: ... pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro
15:12:34 [stain]: > This is a response to a message apparently sent from your address to
15:12:40 [paolo]: +1 for a two-tier dissemination strategy
15:12:43 [stain]: > public-prov-wg@w3.org: Your message has NOT been distributed to the list
15:12:47 [paolo]: q+
15:12:49 [stain]: so it does not work to email from the outside either
15:12:50 [StephenCresswell]: jcheney: Paolo was giving view of this at conference, he said it may be good idea to start with a subset of ideas that are familiar through OPM etc.
15:12:50 [StephenCresswell]: ... (gone quiet)
15:12:52 [GK]: q+ to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff
15:12:56 [pgroth]: q?
15:13:01 [pgroth]: ack jcheney
15:13:05 [StephenCresswell]: ... (I didn't hear anything)
15:13:05 [pgroth]: ack paolo
15:13:40 [stain]: ah, I just need to say it's allowed in the publication.. then it should be fine to post for outsiders, yes
15:13:45 [StephenCresswell]: Paolo: Make distinction between core concepts and newer things
15:14:09 [pgroth]: q+
15:14:19 [StephenCresswell]: ... people ask how it is different from OPM ... make distinction between top tier and second tier
15:14:23 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:14:23 [Zakim]: GK, you wanted to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff
15:14:27 [YolandaGil]: +1
15:14:33 [YolandaGil]: q+
15:14:40 [pgroth]: q-
15:14:46 [pgroth]: q+
15:14:55 [StephenCresswell]: GK: I've been starting to draft something about the issue of relationship between resources and entities, from developer perspective,
15:15:08 [StephenCresswell]: ... intend to contribute
15:15:09 [pgroth]: ack YolandaGil
15:15:47 [tlebo]: FROM @MacTed ASK WHERE { [ foaf:nick "Tall Ted" ] foaf:holdsAccount [ foaf:accountName "MacTed" ] } . }
15:15:48 [StephenCresswell]: Yolanda: Was trying extract core ideas to write primer document.
15:15:52 [paolo]: q?
15:15:57 [StephenCresswell]: ... some of the examples are hard to relate to
15:16:38 [GK]: Slightly related to this discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0156.html
15:16:44 [GK]: Yolanda +1
15:16:45 [StephenCresswell]: ... some of the the definitions , or how terms are used elsewhere in document, are confusing
15:17:12 [stain]: @YolandaGil +1
15:17:26 [tlebo]: +1 to stop making contrived examples when there are many real examples to handle
15:17:29 [satya]: @Yolanda +1
15:17:39 [StephenCresswell]: ... may less contrived, more natural examples, more like the way we would use provenance, would help
15:17:53 [tlebo]: attempt of a list http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples
15:17:54 [dgarijo]: @Yolanda +1
15:17:55 [pgroth]: q?
15:18:10 [StephenCresswell]: ... perhaps end-to-end example using linked data
15:18:46 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: Would help to get a reflection of the data model in RDF would help
15:19:00 [GK]: @pgroth: +1 helps to see examples in RDF, but these can still look complicated
15:19:18 [StephenCresswell]: ... we should look at smaller things to help people understand what the data model says
15:19:20 [satya]: @Paul +1 and maybe with an intuitive example will help
15:19:24 [satya]: q+
15:19:28 [pgroth]: ack pgroth
15:19:37 [StephenCresswell]: ... it's nice to have the RDF as well as abstract syntax
15:20:05 [dgarijo]: we have some examples in RDF in the ontology document.
15:20:11 [pgroth]: q+
15:20:16 [tlebo]: RDF/XML :-(
15:20:17 [StephenCresswell]: satya: linked data, bioinformatics, sensor data, has lots of examples
15:20:39 [pgroth]: q?
15:20:41 [StephenCresswell]: ... maybe better than filesystem examples
15:20:43 [pgroth]: ack satya
15:20:45 [satya]: q-
15:21:16 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: We have the example that we all agreed on previously ... data journalism example
15:21:16 [satya]: @Paul: I guess I am saying a non-computer science example may help?
15:21:21 [Luc]: we have always said this example was a placeholder ... if someone has a better one, than let's use it. The data journalism is too long for prov-dm document.
15:21:25 [GK]: +1 (need examples that demonstrate simple ideas)
15:21:51 [pgroth]: q?
15:21:53 [StephenCresswell]: ... concentrate on some simple things that everyone would need to say e.g. authorship, quote relation
15:21:53 [pgroth]: ack pgroth
15:22:17 [pgroth]: Topic: Connection Task Force
15:22:22 [tlebo]: += http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples#Who_is_the_author_of_a_document
15:22:22 [satya]: We can revisit some of the example scenarios from the PROV XG also
15:22:41 [tlebo]: @satya, pointer to XG's list?
15:22:47 [dgarijo]: @satya: well, the first one wasn't the data journalism example?
15:22:48 [StephenCresswell]: kai: We have telecon discussing what we will do with connection TF,
15:22:54 [pgroth]: q?
15:23:01 [StephenCresswell]: ... so far we have informal rep ... more or less finished
15:23:09 [StephenCresswell]: ... it should be a living document
15:23:09 [Zakim]: +??P2
15:23:21 [StephenCresswell]: ... eric and kai will be a contact
15:23:34 [StephenCresswell]: ... What will we do next?
15:23:45 [dgarijo]: @tlebo: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/#Analysis_of_The_State_of_the_Art
15:23:53 [StephenCresswell]: ... one thing is to identify mailing lists
15:23:55 [tlebo]: thx
15:24:15 [StephenCresswell]: ... we don't want to be seen as the people who actually communicate with all these connections
15:24:24 [satya]: @Daniel: agree but maybe we should avoid CS jargon - since many of our targeted users are non-CS
15:24:29 [StephenCresswell]: ... it would just add another step to communications
15:24:45 [StephenCresswell]: ... We brainstormed on what else we could provide
15:24:51 [dgarijo]: @tlebo: 5.3.1, 5.3.2 and 5.3.3 are the 3 3 scenario.
15:25:05 [StephenCresswell]: ... We thought about organising additional telecons
15:25:25 [StephenCresswell]: ... we other groups, e.g. creative commons
15:25:31 [pgroth]: q?
15:25:41 [StephenCresswell]: ... What does the group think?
15:25:44 [dgarijo]: @Satya: what does CS mean?
15:25:55 [satya]: @Tim: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario
15:25:58 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: Still a lot to do in engaging with other groups
15:26:13 [satya]: @daniel: computer science
15:26:14 [Luc]: q+ to mention the best practice deliverable
15:26:21 [StephenCresswell]: ... e.g. kai involved with DC group
15:26:26 [dgarijo]: @satya: thx!
15:26:27 [pgroth]: q?
15:26:47 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: In charter we have Best Practive deliverable
15:27:38 [StephenCresswell]: ... would involve technical work on how integrate e.g. creative commons work
15:27:42 [YolandaGil]: +q
15:27:45 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:27:45 [Zakim]: Luc, you wanted to mention the best practice deliverable
15:28:05 [StephenCresswell]: kai: That's sort of thing what we might discuss on new telcons
15:28:39 [pgroth]: ack YolandaGil
15:28:52 [StephenCresswell]: kai: What can be our role where we are not bridge persons?
15:28:56 [Zakim]: -stain
15:29:15 [Zakim]: +stain
15:29:23 [paolo]: have to leave, apologies
15:29:42 [Zakim]: -paolo
15:29:44 [StephenCresswell]: yolanda: There are not many people on connection TF, and it is too daunting to look at technical integration at all these areas ourselves
15:30:08 [StephenCresswell]: ... we need to set up discussions in these separate areas
15:30:26 [pgroth]: q?
15:31:00 [StephenCresswell]: ... telcons would be vehicle to get more people participating, and the outcome from calls would move us towards best practice deliverables
15:31:20 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: seems like a good way forwards
15:32:12 [StephenCresswell]: yolanda: Maybe people will be scared off by prov-dm document, and maybe we should hold off until we have more accessible documents
15:32:33 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: seems reasonable to wait for primer etc.
15:32:40 [pgroth]: q?
15:32:53 [Luc]: we should use the w3c teleconference system for those calls, and we need to book them ahead
15:33:05 [Luc]: +1 for January
15:33:14 [StephenCresswell]: yolanda: maybe we can schedule for later ... e.g. Decemeber, January
15:33:24 [pgroth]: Topic: PROV-O
15:33:33 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: January seems best.
15:33:45 [tlebo]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Reflections_from_RDF-WG_F2F2 : one good (3 terms), two bad (conflating GraphContainer and Graph; sd:name doesn't identify), one opportunity (reconciling SPARQL-WG, RDF-WG, PROV-WG)
15:34:26 [StephenCresswell]: tlebo: Some feedback on F2F (named graphs)
15:34:42 [StephenCresswell]: ... they have resolved to distinguish
15:34:51 [StephenCresswell]: graph containers and graph serialisations
15:34:58 [tlebo]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts
15:35:30 [StephenCresswell]: ... the clear distinction will help proposal
15:35:51 [StephenCresswell]: ... they have some problem with the SPARQL WG
15:36:20 [StephenCresswell]: ... vocabularies used to identify graph doesn't identify graph container
15:36:30 [StephenCresswell]: ... needs to be solved in SPARQL WG
15:36:36 [pgroth]: q?
15:37:03 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: Any impression on whether we just have to wait?
15:37:16 [StephenCresswell]: tlebo: We need to be more proactive than that
15:37:43 [satya]: @Tim: thanks! The distinction between g-snap and g-box seems to be special importance to this WG
15:37:47 [satya]: @tim: agree
15:37:50 [pgroth]: q?
15:37:54 [StephenCresswell]: ... we need to interact more to make sure the clear distinction is established and maintained
15:38:29 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Concerned that we become dependent on what SPARQL WG say
15:39:19 [StephenCresswell]: tlebo: Problem is that they have established RDF vocab to talk about endpoints, graphs etc., and they fail to make distinction
15:39:19 [Luc]: there was a suggestion by Sandro to express the data journalism example, and trying to use some form of name graph, and learn from that
15:39:37 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Their problem or ours?
15:39:48 [pgroth]: q?
15:40:10 [AndroUser]: AndroUser has joined #prov
15:40:11 [StephenCresswell]: tlebo: Ours. They could continue to ignore it and they would meet their aims.
15:40:26 [pgroth]: q?
15:40:39 [pgroth]: Topic: Update PROV-O
15:40:47 [StephenCresswell]: tlebo: Discussion on named graphs for accounts is stalled by these problems.
15:41:00 [dgarijo]: hmm, if we cannot use named graphs as accounts then we will have to include "accounts" on the ontology.
15:41:10 [dgarijo]: once again.
15:41:32 [StephenCresswell]: satya: Luc joined ontology call and had suggestions before release of documents.
15:41:48 [Zakim]: + +1.509.375.aacc
15:41:50 [pgroth]: q?
15:41:57 [Luc]: q+
15:41:58 [GK]: q+ top suggest an approach to simplifyingpresentation of the D<M might be via the ontology
15:42:05 [pgroth]: q?
15:42:12 [StephenCresswell]: ... on data model, it might make sense to withhold prov-o until readablity of dm doc is improved
15:42:24 [stain]: @Luc +1 - let's do an agile first version
15:42:33 [stain]: with lots of bugs :)
15:42:37 [pgroth]: q?
15:42:38 [GK]: q+ to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology
15:42:41 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: Would be worried to dealy prov-o document, we need serialisation, for primer etc.
15:42:52 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:43:12 [StephenCresswell]: satya: we can go ahead and release
15:43:18 [pgroth]: q+
15:43:30 [jcheney]: +q
15:43:31 [tlebo]: PROV-O is not the RDF serialization?
15:43:33 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:43:33 [Zakim]: GK, you wanted to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology
15:43:37 [StephenCresswell]: ...to clarify, prov-o is not the RDF serialisation
15:44:24 [tlebo]: so, PROV-O is RDF serialization + axioms?
15:44:31 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Maybe leave data model as it is, but look at ways through ontology and RDF representation, to make the simple things easy to say.
15:44:58 [pgroth]: q?
15:45:08 [StephenCresswell]: satya: Agree. Think we have covered the mapping of all the terms in data model.
15:45:29 [dgarijo]: @GK: Paul already proposed some shortcut fucntions
15:45:46 [Luc]: q+
15:46:10 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Shortcuts may provide a less scary way to present examples
15:46:12 [stain]: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions
15:46:20 [dgarijo]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-prov-dm-20111018/#common-relations
15:46:50 [StephenCresswell]: satya: Are we considering these things to be part of core data model or as extensions?
15:46:54 [GK]: My point was that the ontology could contain things not in the data model, or easier structures to represent DM structures
15:47:04 [pgroth]: ack pgroth
15:47:05 [stain]: q+
15:47:07 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: I consider them part of the core
15:47:19 [GK]: .. i.e. not necessarily 1:1 correspondence between DM and O
15:47:35 [pgroth]: q+
15:47:55 [StephenCresswell]: jcheney: Data model uses abstract syntax, ontology uses RDF, but describes constraints and specialisations
15:48:06 [GK]: I think the ontology effectively *does* define RDGF serialization
15:48:13 [pgroth]: the RDF falls out of the Ontology
15:48:27 [stain]: but not with any constraints of formats or implicit/explicit etc.
15:48:28 [StephenCresswell]: ... but doesn't describe mapping to ontology
15:48:38 [stain]: I assume PAQ should come with some minimum serialisation expectations
15:48:48 [GK]: @pgroth yes that's what I meant to say :)
15:49:00 [stain]: so you could use PROV-O in Manchester Syntax if you like, but don't expect too many applications to understand it
15:49:01 [MacTed]: I don't understand "RDF serialization" nor "XML serialization" in this context. "RDF/XML serialization", yes. or Turtle, N-Triples, etc.
15:49:09 [StephenCresswell]: satya: We tried to model DM classes and provide definitions. What is mssing?
15:49:26 [pgroth]: zakim, who is noisy?
15:49:33 [stain]: XML serialisation CAN be a (restricted) RDF/XML serialisation
15:49:37 [Zakim]: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (28%), ne (23%), Satya_Sahoo (4%)
15:49:39 [GK]: ACtually it's 2-stage: model -> abstract RDDF (ontology does that), then given that RDF-syntax gives RDF/XML.
15:50:26 [StephenCresswell]: jcheney: There's a deliverable about serialisation, is that intended to be serialisation of the of the ontology, or the mapping from the DM to the ontology?
15:50:41 [pgroth]: q?
15:50:44 [pgroth]: ack jcheney
15:50:46 [StephenCresswell]: satya: We will add some text on that.
15:51:05 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: On issue of time, there don't seem to be any time examples
15:51:16 [dgarijo]: we talked about reusing some time ontologies.
15:51:28 [StephenCresswell]: ... e.g. workflow example, can we have time in there?
15:51:33 [pgroth]: q?
15:51:41 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:51:42 [StephenCresswell]: satya: We will add e.g. start and stop time of processes.
15:51:46 [dgarijo]: like : http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/
15:52:18 [tlebo]: illustration of owl time: https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/raw/master/doc/ontology-diagrams/owl-time.pdf
15:52:39 [stain]: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions I mean
15:52:53 [stain]: if you are required to understand the extensions if you are "PROV-DM compliant"
15:53:11 [StephenCresswell]: stain: Prov-DM extensions, are those something that we are required to understand?
15:53:16 [stain]: or if it is optional, so that although PROV-O should have these terms, you don't need to understand it to be PROV-O compliant
15:53:29 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: they are part of the data model
15:53:49 [dgarijo]: @Satya: entities?
15:53:59 [pgroth]: q?
15:54:00 [StephenCresswell]: satya: What are the domain and range of the relations?
15:54:13 [pgroth]: ack stain
15:54:13 [GK]: ?
15:54:21 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: entities
15:54:22 [pgroth]: q-
15:54:23 [pgroth]: q?
15:55:08 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: It would be good to reflect everything in the DM into the ontology
15:55:22 [StephenCresswell]: ... not necessarily all the contraints
15:55:26 [pgroth]: q?
15:55:28 [tlebo]: RDF examples for each construct are in the repository: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components
15:55:41 [tlebo]: not complete, not correct, but there :-)
15:55:42 [GK]: +1 need the vocabulary soonest, not nessecarily constraints
15:55:51 [StephenCresswell]: satya: Primary aim should be to get all the terms modelled,
15:56:13 [StephenCresswell]: ... but if you don't define all the domain, range etc.
15:56:28 [StephenCresswell]: ... people have problems creating the RDF
15:56:43 [GK]: +1 domain and range are helpful for generating RDF
15:57:14 [StephenCresswell]: pgroth: Domain and range are mostly there anyway, the hierachies are not so important at this stage.
15:58:01 [pgroth]: q?
15:58:02 [StephenCresswell]: satya: Agree, but OWL community won't like it.
15:58:18 [stain]: example of XSD which happen to produce RDF/XML: https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/main/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/xsd/scufl2.xsd produces https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/test/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/example/workflowBundle.rdf
15:58:23 [pgroth]: Topic: Discussion on Entity Attributes
15:58:33 [stain]: .. but you get strange double-nesting due to the property-class nature of RDF/XML
15:58:35 [GK]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0142.html
15:58:54 [Zakim]: -tlebo
15:58:57 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Link is to one of most recent messages,
15:59:11 [StephenCresswell]: ... discussion between GK and Jim has converged
15:59:15 [Zakim]: +tlebo
15:59:24 [StephenCresswell]: ... to having attributes as part of characterisation
15:59:46 [StephenCresswell]: ... to aid interoperability
16:00:16 [pgroth]: q?
16:00:25 [StephenCresswell]: ... Also agreed we don't have to distinguish between characterising and non-characterising attributes
16:00:33 [tlebo]: I haven't read the most recent emails on this, but the last time we talked about this, "characterizing attributes" were trying to reinvent owl.
16:00:33 [Zakim]: -Yogesh_Simmhan
16:00:54 [Luc]: q+ to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval
16:00:58 [satya]: @tim: +1
16:00:58 [tlebo]: (sorry, call also dropped)
16:01:13 [stain]: should we do a proposal and vote?
16:01:39 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: Didn't mention whether a given attr has fixed value for some interval
16:01:43 [satya]: q+
16:01:53 [tlebo]: all attributes are fixed in an entity, no?
16:02:10 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Any attr for entity is fixed for entity in what interval that entity exists.
16:02:26 [Zakim]: -[ISI]
16:02:31 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Argument for interop came from jim.
16:02:32 [pgroth]: ack Luc
16:02:32 [Zakim]: Luc, you wanted to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval
16:02:33 [dgarijo]: gotta go, sry.
16:02:43 [Zakim]: -??P35
16:03:03 [StephenCresswell]: ... looking at provenance challenge, the attrs were introduced to enable conversion of information between different formats
16:03:08 [Zakim]: -kai?
16:03:10 [Zakim]: -dgarijo
16:03:19 [kai]: sorry, have to leave timely
16:03:37 [tlebo]: what is the brewing proposal we may vote on?
16:03:40 [StephenCresswell]: ... the approach I was suggested could be seen as a dual to that
16:04:06 [StephenCresswell]: Luc: We will try to get that articulated so we can make the case in the doc.
16:04:28 [StephenCresswell]: ... are there aspects of the document which conflict with what you agreed with Jim?
16:04:49 [StephenCresswell]: GK: Will clarify this.
16:04:53 [pgroth]: q?
16:05:09 [pgroth]: ack satya
16:05:39 [StephenCresswell]: satya: What GK said is exactly what frames and slots do, and that carries over to OWL.
16:05:49 [tlebo]: just as PROV is avoiding the Time and Location discussions, it should also avoid being a schema language.
16:06:18 [pgroth]: q?
16:06:42 [StephenCresswell]: satya: To make it clear, it would help you don't explicitly carry around attributes of entitty to be able to define it properly, that is done by typing information
16:06:48 [Zakim]: -Satya_Sahoo
16:06:49 [Zakim]: -stain
16:06:52 [Zakim]: -tlebo
16:06:53 [Zakim]: -??P37
16:06:53 [Zakim]: -ne
16:06:56 [Zakim]: -Luc
16:06:57 [pgroth]: rrsagent, set log public
16:06:57 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:07:03 [Zakim]: -Curt_Tilmes
16:07:05 [pgroth]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html pgroth
16:07:11 [pgroth]: trackbot, end telcon
16:07:11 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:07:11 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, stain, [ISI], kai?, ne, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed,
16:07:12 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:12 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:07:13 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items
16:07:15 [Zakim]: ... Satya_Sahoo, paolo, +1.509.375.aacc