Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 14 July 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.14
Seen
Daniel Garijo, David Corsar, Eric Stephan, Graham Klyne, Helena Deus, James McCusker, James Cheney, Jörn Hees, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Reza B'Far, Ryan Golden, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil
Regrets
Stephan Zednik
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
James Cheney, Paul Groth
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
  1. Admin

    The minutes for the F2F are still in progress. Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository.

  2. Brief overview of working group plan

    We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology. We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document. The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues.

  3. Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force

    The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact. The report is drafted and contributions are welcome. WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities. Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done.

  4. Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force

    Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point. They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week.

  5. Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force

    A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress. It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it. Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing.

  6. Discuss Plans for Model Task Force

    Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available. Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft. An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available. Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology.

  7. Discussion of Agent

    We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion. Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization". The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept. The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples.

14:53:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc

14:53:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:53:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:53:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:53:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:44 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
14:54:00 <pgroth> scribe: jcheney

(Scribe set to James Cheney)

14:54:05 <pgroth> scribe: Paul Groth

(Scribe set to Paul Groth)

14:54:20 <pgroth> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.14
14:56:21 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Zakim, who is on the call?

14:56:21 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is

14:56:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot

14:56:36 <ericstephan> I haven't called in yet

Eric Stephan: I haven't called in yet

14:57:03 <pgroth> zakim, this will be #prov

zakim, this will be #prov

14:57:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth

14:57:19 <pgroth> zakim, this will be  Provenance Working Group Teleconference

zakim, this will be Provenance Working Group Teleconference

14:57:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth

14:57:40 <Luc> zakim, who is here?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is here?

14:57:42 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be Provenance

Zakim, this will be Provenance

14:57:45 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is

14:57:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot

14:57:48 <ericstephan> I am on the call now (muted)

Eric Stephan: I am on the call now (muted)

14:57:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth

14:58:22 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:58:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

14:58:22 <pgroth> chair: Paul Groth
14:58:35 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

14:58:37 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

14:58:44 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:58:46 <pgroth> scribe: jcheney

(Scribe set to James Cheney)

14:58:47 <GK> zakim, ??P21 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P21 is me

14:58:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

14:59:00 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call?

14:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25

14:59:03 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P25 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P25 is me

14:59:04 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

14:59:07 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P7 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P7 is me

14:59:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:59:16 <ericstephan> I am 509.554

Eric Stephan: I am 509.554

14:59:30 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

14:59:49 <Zakim> +Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh

15:00:30 <tlebo> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:00:30 <pgroth> Regrets: Stephan Zednik
15:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh

15:01:08 <Zakim> +olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf

15:01:16 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:01:20 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:01:29 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10

15:01:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro,

15:02:02 <Zakim> ... trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot

15:02:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:02:24 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:02:44 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:02:44 <jorn> zakim, who is on the call?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is on the call?

15:02:48 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34

15:03:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P34 is me

Zakim, ??P34 is me

15:04:00 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:04:01 <Zakim> +SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens

15:04:05 <Zakim> +??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42

15:04:17 <Zakim> +Reza

Zakim IRC Bot: +Reza

15:04:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:04:31 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.512.524.aabb

<jcheney> TOPIC: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The minutes for the F2F are still in progress. Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: The minutes for the F2F are still in progress.  Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository.
15:04:31 <jcheney> pgroth: still working on minutes for F2F

Paul Groth: still working on minutes for F2F

15:04:52 <jcheney> pgroth: actions from F2F due today

Paul Groth: actions from F2F due today

15:05:09 <ericstephan> %22

Eric Stephan: %22

15:05:16 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aacc

15:05:16 <jcheney>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

15:05:24 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:05:30 <Zakim> +??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44

15:05:53 <jcheney> eric: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done

Eric Stephan: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done

15:06:06 <jcheney> eric: still need contributions

Eric Stephan: still need contributions

15:06:17 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P35 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P35 is me

15:06:17 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:06:25 <jcheney> pgroth: stephan is still working on actions

Paul Groth: stephan is still working on actions

15:06:38 <jcheney> pgroth: paulo is not here

Paul Groth: paulo is not here

15:06:49 <jcheney> pgroth: simon's action?

Paul Groth: simon's action?

15:06:52 <jcheney> smiles: not done

Simon Miles: not done

15:06:54 <ericstephan> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

Eric Stephan: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

15:07:12 <jcheney> smiles: action-21 also not done

Simon Miles: ACTION-21 also not done

15:07:24 <jcheney> pgroth: james mccusker action-22 - not here

Paul Groth: james mccusker ACTION-22 - not here

15:07:31 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

15:07:39 <jcheney> smiles: action 24 not done

Simon Miles: ACTION-24 not done

15:07:57 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:08:03 <jcheney> pgroth: action-28 assigned to paul not done

Paul Groth: ACTION-28 assigned to paul not done

15:08:03 <jorn> zakim, ??p34 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p34 is me

15:08:03 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:08:16 <jcheney> pgroth: action-26 to satya

Paul Groth: ACTION-26 to satya

15:08:27 <jcheney> satya: not done

Satya Sahoo: not done

15:08:50 <jcheney> khalid: action-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of

Khalid Belhajjame: ACTION-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of

15:09:13 <jcheney> pgroth: action-28 to james myers - not here

Paul Groth: ACTION-28 to james myers - not here

15:09:15 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

15:09:33 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:09:33 <jcheney> pgroth: graham action-30 to move PAQ document to site

Paul Groth: graham ACTION-30 to move PAQ document to site

15:09:38 <jcheney> graham: working on it

Graham Klyne: working on it

15:09:51 <jcheney> pgroth: simon action-31 to enact PAQ plan

Paul Groth: simon ACTION-31 to enact PAQ plan

15:09:54 <jcheney> smiles: done

Simon Miles: done

15:10:17 <jcheney> pgroth: action-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style

Paul Groth: ACTION-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style

15:10:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:10:35 <jcheney> paolo: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish

Paolo Missier: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish

15:10:46 <jcheney> pgroth: many actions still open

Paul Groth: many actions still open

15:11:07 <jcheney> pgroth: scribes needed

Paul Groth: scribes needed

15:11:33 <Zakim> +??P51

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P51

15:11:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:11:57 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:11:57 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:12:02 <jcheney> luc: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month

Luc Moreau: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month

15:12:05 <jcheney> (??)

(??)

15:12:23 <jcheney> TOPIC: Brief overview of working group plan

2. Brief overview of working group plan

Summary: We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology. We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document. The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology.  We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document.  The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues.
15:12:50 <jcheney> pgroth: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology

Paul Groth: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology

15:12:58 <jcheney> pgroth: also want to deliver access document

Paul Groth: also want to deliver access document

15:13:10 <jcheney> pgroth: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues

Paul Groth: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues

15:13:58 <GK> I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against

Graham Klyne: I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against

15:14:00 <jcheney> pgroth: reports from connection & implementation TFs

Paul Groth: reports from connection & implementation TFs

15:14:30 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force

3. Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force

Summary: The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact. The report is drafted and contributions are welcome. WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities. Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact.  The report is drafted and contributions are welcome.  WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities.  Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done.
15:15:10 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

15:15:22 <jcheney> eric: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities

Eric Stephan: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities

15:15:44 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

15:15:52 <jcheney> eric: yolanda made group priority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?)

Eric Stephan: yolanda made group priority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?)

15:16:15 <jcheney> eric: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors

Eric Stephan: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors

15:17:01 <jcheney> eric: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september

Eric Stephan: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september

15:17:09 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:17:30 <jcheney> smiles: what does it mean to be a "source"?

Simon Miles: what does it mean to be a "source"?

15:18:38 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:18:59 <jcheney> eric: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs

Eric Stephan: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs

15:19:12 <GK> q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document

Graham Klyne: q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document

15:19:23 <Zakim> +??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41

15:19:32 <Zakim> -??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P14

15:19:43 <Paolo> zakim, ??P41 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P41 is me

15:19:43 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:19:43 <jcheney> graham: no reference to commercial compliance

Graham Klyne: no reference to commercial compliance

15:20:09 <StephenCresswell> That was me

Stephen Cresswell: That was me

15:20:15 <jcheney> graham: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication

Graham Klyne: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication

15:20:17 <rgolden> q+

Ryan Golden: q+

15:20:29 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:20:29 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document

15:20:34 <pgroth> ack rgolden

Paul Groth: ack rgolden

15:20:52 <jcheney> ryan: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages

Ryan Golden: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages

15:21:16 <ericstephan> q+

Eric Stephan: q+

15:21:51 <jcheney> yolanda: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap

Yolanda Gil: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap

15:22:10 <pgroth> ack ericstephan

Paul Groth: ack ericstephan

15:22:40 <jcheney> eric: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report

Eric Stephan: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report

15:23:10 <jcheney> yolanda: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind

Yolanda Gil: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind

15:23:16 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:23:30 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:23:39 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p14 is me

15:23:39 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:23:46 <jcheney> yolanda: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario

Yolanda Gil: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario

15:24:08 <Zakim> +SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens

15:24:26 <jcheney> yolanda: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant

Yolanda Gil: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant

15:24:44 <ericstephan> thank you Yolanda!

Eric Stephan: thank you Yolanda!

15:25:21 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force

4. Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force

Summary: Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point. They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point.  They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week.
15:25:24 <pgroth> lena?

Paul Groth: lena?

15:25:55 <Lena> I am having sound problems

Helena Deus: I am having sound problems

15:26:09 <jcheney> pgroth: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available

Paul Groth: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available

15:26:38 <jcheney> pgroth: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week.

Paul Groth: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week.

15:26:48 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force

5. Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force

Summary: A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress. It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it. Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress.  It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it.  Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing.
15:27:01 <jcheney> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html

15:27:07 <Zakim> +Lena

Zakim IRC Bot: +Lena

15:27:40 <jcheney> smiles: working on uploading/revising access draft

Simon Miles: working on uploading/revising access draft

15:27:51 <jcheney> smiles: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F

Simon Miles: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F

15:28:22 <jcheney> smiles: issues to be raised against draft and discussed

Simon Miles: issues to be raised against draft and discussed

15:28:27 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:28:44 <jcheney> khalid: what date will document be available for comment

Khalid Belhajjame: what date will document be available for comment

15:28:47 <Yogesh> +q

Yogesh Simmhan: +q

15:29:19 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:29:30 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%)

15:29:32 <GK> It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope)

Graham Klyne: It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope)

15:29:34 <jcheney> smiles: depends on when W3C version control is set up

Simon Miles: depends on when W3C version control is set up

15:29:42 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

15:29:46 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh

15:29:46 <khalidbelhajjame> @graham, thanks

Khalid Belhajjame: @graham, thanks

15:30:08 <jcheney> yogesh: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line)

Yogesh Simmhan: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line)

15:30:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:23 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:30:29 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:30:34 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%)

15:30:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute sandro

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute sandro

15:30:42 <Zakim> Sandro should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Sandro should now be muted

15:30:44 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%)

15:30:45 <Yogesh> www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example

Yogesh Simmhan: www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example

15:30:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute sandro

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute sandro

15:30:54 <Zakim> Sandro should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Sandro should no longer be muted

15:30:59 <jorn> zakim, please mute lena

Jörn Hees: zakim, please mute lena

15:30:59 <Zakim> Lena should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Lena should now be muted

15:31:00 <jcheney> pgroth: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september

Paul Groth: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september

15:31:02 <Satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:31:03 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:31:06 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:31:09 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:31:14 <jcheney> pgroth: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1

Paul Groth: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1

15:31:32 <GK> +1 (kinda by default, I think)

Graham Klyne: +1 (kinda by default, I think)

15:31:36 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:31:39 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:31:41 <rgolden> +1

Ryan Golden: +1

15:31:44 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:31:48 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:31:50 <Yogesh> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:31:52 <jcheney> pgroth: (meaning the access document)

Paul Groth: (meaning the access document)

15:31:57 <Zakim> -??P51

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P51

15:32:02 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:32:28 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force

15:32:30 <jcheney> pgroth: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding)

Paul Groth: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding)

15:32:35 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is noisy?

15:32:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:32:47 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%)

15:32:56 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Model Task Force

6. Discuss Plans for Model Task Force

Summary: Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available. Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft. An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available. Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available.  Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft.  An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available.  Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology.
15:33:05 <Zakim> -Reza

Zakim IRC Bot: -Reza

15:33:45 <jcheney> paolo: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document

Paolo Missier: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document

15:33:55 <jcheney> paolo: tried to rephrase without altering semantics

Paolo Missier: tried to rephrase without altering semantics

15:34:01 <jcheney> paolo: baseline for proper document

Paolo Missier: baseline for proper document

15:34:02 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0

15:34:03 <Satya> @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC?

Satya Sahoo: @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC?

15:34:24 <jcheney> paolo: threads evolving on list

Paolo Missier: threads evolving on list

15:34:44 <jcheney> paolo: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model

Paolo Missier: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model

15:35:09 <jcheney> luc: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready.

Luc Moreau: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready.

15:35:36 <jcheney> luc: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition.  Will discuss with paolo next week

Luc Moreau: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition. Will discuss with paolo next week

15:35:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:35:45 <Satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:36:00 <jcheney> satya: where is the new consolidated document?

Satya Sahoo: where is the new consolidated document?

15:36:27 <jcheney> paolo: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox

Paolo Missier: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox

15:36:49 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:36:53 <Satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:36:53 <jcheney> paolo: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it

Paolo Missier: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it

15:37:01 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:37:03 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:16 <jcheney> luc: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository

Luc Moreau: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository

15:37:42 <jcheney> luc: Instructions will be posted soon

Luc Moreau: Instructions will be posted soon

15:38:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Paolo's plan

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 for Paolo's plan

15:38:46 <jcheney> pgroth: sandro, why is repository taking so long?

Paul Groth: sandro, why is repository taking so long?

15:38:50 <jcheney> sandro: don't know

Sandro Hawke: don't know

15:38:56 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:39:21 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p14 is me

15:39:21 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:39:45 <GK> @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so

Graham Klyne: @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so

15:39:46 <Satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:39:47 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:39:50 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:39:51 <jcheney> pgroth: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1

Paul Groth: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1

15:39:53 <jcheney> +1

+1

15:39:54 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:39:57 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:40:00 <rgolden> +1 (me or reza)

Ryan Golden: +1 (me or reza)

15:40:08 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:40:17 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:40:20 <GK> +1 (to review, comment, propose changes)

Graham Klyne: +1 (to review, comment, propose changes)

15:40:50 <jcheney> pgroth: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya

Paul Groth: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya

15:41:03 <jcheney> satya: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model

Satya Sahoo: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model

15:41:22 <jcheney> satya: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners

Satya Sahoo: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners

15:41:52 <jcheney> satya: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points

Satya Sahoo: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points

15:41:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:42:22 <jcheney> graham: assume that ontology will be version controlled?

Graham Klyne: assume that ontology will be version controlled?

15:43:03 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:43:15 <jcheney> luc: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas

Luc Moreau: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas

15:43:19 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

15:43:29 <tlebo> Jim McCusker is speaking

Timothy Lebo: Jim McCusker is speaking

15:43:45 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible

James McCusker: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible

15:44:14 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:44:23 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:44:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute)

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute)

15:44:31 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:44:32 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:44:33 <dgarijo> +1 to help with the owl file

Daniel Garijo: +1 to help with the owl file

15:44:39 <tlebo> +1 for Jim McCusker

Timothy Lebo: +1 for Jim McCusker

15:44:42 <jcheney> pgroth: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september)

Paul Groth: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september)

15:44:49 <JimMcCusker> +1

James McCusker: +1

15:45:02 <jcheney> +1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help)

+1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help)

15:45:11 <tlebo> -= my vote for Jim McCusker

Timothy Lebo: -= my vote for Jim McCusker

15:45:18 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discussion of Agent

7. Discussion of Agent

Summary: We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion. Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization". The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept. The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples.

<jcheney> SUMMARY: We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion.  Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization".  The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept.  The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples.
15:45:29 <jcheney> pgroth: Did not reach consensus at F2F

Paul Groth: Did not reach consensus at F2F

15:45:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force

15:45:41 <jcheney> pgroth: More discission of agent has been on mailing list

Paul Groth: More discission of agent has been on mailing list

15:45:58 <Paolo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent

Paolo Missier: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent

15:46:44 <pgroth> An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity.  It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred

Paul Groth: An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity. It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred

15:46:44 <pgroth> to be an agent by involvement in a process execution.

Paul Groth: to be an agent by involvement in a process execution.

15:46:46 <jcheney> pgroth: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity"

Paul Groth: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity"

15:46:53 <Zakim> +??P67

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P67

15:47:08 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.509.554.aaaa

15:47:32 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:32 <rgolden> q+

Ryan Golden: q+

15:47:33 <jcheney> pgroth: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution

Paul Groth: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution

15:47:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:40 <ericstephan> sorry have to leave early today

Eric Stephan: sorry have to leave early today

15:48:09 <JimMcCusker> +q

James McCusker: +q

15:48:15 <pgroth> ack rgolden

Paul Groth: ack rgolden

15:48:19 <jcheney> ryan: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation

Ryan Golden: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation

15:48:28 <jcheney> ryan: Suggest renaming process execution to agent

Ryan Golden: Suggest renaming process execution to agent

15:48:45 <jcheney> ryan: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function

Ryan Golden: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function

15:49:26 <jcheney> ryan: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization"

Ryan Golden: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization"

15:49:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:49:50 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker

Paul Groth: ack JimMcCusker

15:49:58 <Paolo> zakim, please mute me

Paolo Missier: zakim, please mute me

15:49:58 <Zakim> Paolo was already muted, Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: Paolo was already muted, Paolo

15:50:06 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:50:17 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something)

James McCusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something)

15:50:34 <dgarijo> I agree with Jim.

Daniel Garijo: I agree with Jim.

15:50:44 <Satya> agree with @Jim

Satya Sahoo: agree with @Jim

15:50:49 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs)

James McCusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs)

15:50:51 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:51:41 <jcheney> ryan:this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob

Ryan Golden: this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob

15:51:44 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:52:03 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:52:08 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:52:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:52:27 <Satya> @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc.

Satya Sahoo: @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc.

15:52:32 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way?

James McCusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way?

15:52:42 <jcheney> ryan: wikipedia for "software agent"

Ryan Golden: wikipedia for "software agent"

15:52:58 <Satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:53:05 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals)

James McCusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals)

15:53:30 <jcheney> ryan: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization

Ryan Golden: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization

15:53:40 <pgroth> ack Satya

Paul Groth: ack Satya

15:53:46 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event

James McCusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event

15:54:05 <jcheney> satya: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself

Satya Sahoo: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself

15:54:17 <jcheney> satya: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent

Satya Sahoo: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent

15:54:30 <jcheney> satya: deborah mentioned two things about agent:

Satya Sahoo: deborah mentioned two things about agent:

15:54:38 <jcheney> satya: 1. making assertion that something is an agent

Satya Sahoo: 1. making assertion that something is an agent

15:54:39 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

15:54:40 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:54:45 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:54:55 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:54:57 <jcheney> satya: 2.  is something an agent only if it is involved in a process?

Satya Sahoo: 2. is something an agent only if it is involved in a process?

15:55:02 <JimMcCusker> Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent

James McCusker: Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent

15:55:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p14 is me

15:55:15 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:55:29 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:55:32 <jcheney> pgroth: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model?  there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party

Paul Groth: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model? there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party

15:55:52 <jcheney> luc: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution)

Luc Moreau: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution)

15:56:12 <jcheney> luc: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe

Luc Moreau: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe

15:56:30 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:56:31 <jcheney> luc: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??)

Luc Moreau: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??)

15:56:33 <Satya> recipe is a specification in my view

Satya Sahoo: recipe is a specification in my view

15:57:09 <jcheney> pgroth: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification"

Paul Groth: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification"

15:57:18 <Luc> @satya: a program is a specification for an execution

Luc Moreau: @satya: a program is a specification for an execution

15:57:18 <GK> volitional vs computational?

Graham Klyne: volitional vs computational?

15:57:20 <jcheney> pgroth: Is agent more or less than responsible entity?

Paul Groth: Is agent more or less than responsible entity?

15:57:24 <JimMcCusker> Responsibility is a role of an entity

James McCusker: Responsibility is a role of an entity

15:57:27 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:57:27 <dgarijo> @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example?

Daniel Garijo: @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example?

15:57:27 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:57:32 <JimMcCusker> a participatory role

James McCusker: a participatory role

15:57:37 <JimMcCusker> q+

James McCusker: q+

15:57:39 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:57:42 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:58:03 <jcheney> pgroth: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent"

Paul Groth: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent"

15:58:36 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:58:38 <jcheney> smiles: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not

Simon Miles: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not

15:59:10 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker

Paul Groth: ack JimMcCusker

15:59:11 <jcheney> smiles: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies

Simon Miles: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies

15:59:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:59:44 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process

James McCusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process

16:00:05 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies

James McCusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies

16:00:24 <Satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:00:28 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context

James McCusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context

16:00:42 <pgroth> ack Satya

Paul Groth: ack Satya

16:01:02 <jcheney> satya: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean?  Subscribing to semantics of other model?

Satya Sahoo: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean? Subscribing to semantics of other model?

16:01:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:01:42 <Lena> +q

Helena Deus: +q

16:01:43 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

16:01:45 <jcheney> satya: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents

Satya Sahoo: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents

16:02:22 <jcheney> khalid: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about

Khalid Belhajjame: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about

16:02:25 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:02:25 <Lena> can you hear me?

Helena Deus: can you hear me?

16:02:26 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:02:27 <jorn> zakim, unmute lena

Jörn Hees: zakim, unmute lena

16:02:27 <Zakim> Lena should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Lena should no longer be muted

16:02:31 <Luc> ack khal

Luc Moreau: ack khal

16:02:36 <pgroth> ack Lena

Paul Groth: ack Lena

16:02:59 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

16:03:02 <jcheney> lena: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies?

Helena Deus: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies?

16:03:17 <Paolo> zakim, unmute me

Paolo Missier: zakim, unmute me

16:03:17 <Zakim> Paolo was not muted, Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: Paolo was not muted, Paolo

16:03:34 <jcheney> smiles: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents.

Simon Miles: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents.

16:03:50 <jcheney> smiles: we may need to make assertions about agents

Simon Miles: we may need to make assertions about agents

16:04:01 <Satya> q+ to respond to simon

Satya Sahoo: q+ to respond to simon

16:04:03 <jcheney> lena: we may need to identify agents of change

Helena Deus: we may need to identify agents of change

16:04:20 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

16:04:29 <jcheney> paolo: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific

Paolo Missier: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific

16:04:52 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal.  Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.

Graham Klyne: I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.

16:04:56 <jcheney> paolo: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points

Paolo Missier: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points

16:05:20 <jcheney> paolo: Should be as minimalistic as possible

Paolo Missier: Should be as minimalistic as possible

16:05:24 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:05:25 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:05:27 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

16:05:29 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:05:34 <jcheney> satya: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things:

Satya Sahoo: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things:

16:05:36 <pgroth> ack Satya

Paul Groth: ack Satya

16:05:36 <Zakim> Satya, you wanted to respond to simon

Zakim IRC Bot: Satya, you wanted to respond to simon

16:05:51 <jcheney> satya: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts

Satya Sahoo: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts

16:06:06 <jcheney> satya: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions

Satya Sahoo: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions

16:06:29 <jcheney> satya: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state

Satya Sahoo: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state

16:06:38 <Paolo> @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship

Paolo Missier: @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship

16:06:40 <jcheney> satya: cannot make assertions about relationship only

Satya Sahoo: cannot make assertions about relationship only

16:06:53 <Paolo> but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept

Paolo Missier: but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept

16:07:16 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal.  Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.

Graham Klyne: I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.

16:07:20 <Luc> yes, can we have a few examples?

Luc Moreau: yes, can we have a few examples?

16:07:23 <Paolo> interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call

Paolo Missier: interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call

16:07:28 <dgarijo> @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly..

Daniel Garijo: @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly..

16:07:36 <jcheney> pgroth: need examples where it is important to know agency

Paul Groth: need examples where it is important to know agency

16:07:37 <Zakim> -??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0

16:07:39 <Zakim> -??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P44

16:07:39 <Satya> @paolo and @daniel - agree

Satya Sahoo: @paolo and @daniel - agree

16:07:40 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

16:07:41 <Paolo> @daniel sure!

Paolo Missier: @daniel sure!

16:07:44 <Zakim> -Lena

Zakim IRC Bot: -Lena

16:07:45 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.216.368.aacc

16:07:45 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:07:45 <Zakim> -olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf

16:07:46 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:07:48 <Zakim> -??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P22

16:07:50 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:07:52 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.512.524.aabb

16:07:54 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:07:56 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:08:00 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:08:02 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

16:08:04 <Zakim> -??P67

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P67

16:08:08 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:08:12 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:08:16 <Zakim> -??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10

16:08:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp

16:08:23 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:08:28 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:08:31 <rgolden> @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler.  It needs to be useful.

Ryan Golden: @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler. It needs to be useful.

16:08:33 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:08:33 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:08:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc,

16:08:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:08:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:08:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:08:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

16:08:36 <Zakim> ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena

Zakim IRC Bot: ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#2) generated 2011-07-14 17:12:42 UTC by 'jcheney', comments: 'Added summaries'