IRC log of prov on 2011-07-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:39 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:53:39 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc
14:53:41 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:41 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #prov
14:53:43 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
14:53:43 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:53:44 [trackbot]: Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:44 [trackbot]: Date: 14 July 2011
14:54:00 [pgroth]: scribe: James Cheney
14:54:05 [pgroth]: scribe: Paul Groth
14:54:20 [pgroth]: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.14
14:54:35 [ericstephan]: ericstephan has joined #prov
14:55:32 [Paolo]: Paolo has joined #prov
14:56:19 [Luc]: Luc has joined #prov
14:56:21 [pgroth]: Zakim, who is on the call?
14:56:21 [Zakim]: sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is
14:56:22 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot
14:56:36 [ericstephan]: I haven't called in yet
14:57:03 [pgroth]: zakim, this will be #prov
14:57:03 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
14:57:19 [pgroth]: zakim, this will be Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:57:19 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
14:57:22 [khalidbelhajjame]: khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
14:57:40 [Luc]: zakim, who is here?
14:57:42 [pgroth]: Zakim, this will be Provenance
14:57:45 [Zakim]: sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is
14:57:48 [Zakim]: On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot
14:57:48 [ericstephan]: I am on the call now (muted)
14:57:53 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
14:58:22 [Luc]: Zakim, this will be PROV
14:58:22 [Zakim]: ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
14:58:22 [pgroth]: chair: Paul Groth
14:58:35 [Zakim]: +??P21
14:58:37 [Zakim]: +??P25
14:58:44 [Luc]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:44 [Yogesh]: Yogesh has joined #prov
14:58:46 [pgroth]: scribe: James Cheney
14:58:47 [GK]: zakim, ??P21 is me
14:58:47 [Zakim]: +GK; got it
14:59:00 [pgroth]: Zakim, who is on the call?
14:59:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25
14:59:03 [khalidbelhajjame]: zakim, ??P25 is me
14:59:04 [Zakim]: +khalidbelhajjame; got it
14:59:07 [pgroth]: Zakim, ??P7 is me
14:59:08 [Zakim]: +pgroth; got it
14:59:08 [olaf]: olaf has joined #prov
14:59:16 [ericstephan]: I am 509.554
14:59:30 [Zakim]: +tlebo
14:59:49 [Zakim]: +Yogesh
15:00:22 [tlebo]: tlebo has joined #prov
15:00:30 [tlebo]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:30 [pgroth]: Regrets: Stephan Zednik
15:01:04 [Zakim]: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh
15:01:08 [Zakim]: +olaf
15:01:12 [MacTed]: MacTed has joined #prov
15:01:16 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's here?
15:01:20 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
15:01:22 [smiles]: smiles has joined #prov
15:01:29 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:34 [Zakim]: +??P10
15:01:39 [StephenCresswell]: StephenCresswell has joined #prov
15:01:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10
15:01:47 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:01:47 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:01:49 [jorn]: jorn has joined #prov
15:01:50 [jcheney]: jcheney has joined #prov
15:01:57 [Zakim]: On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro,
15:02:01 [SamCoppens]: SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:02:02 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
15:02:04 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:02:24 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:02:44 [Zakim]: +??P22
15:02:44 [jorn]: zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:48 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:02:52 [Zakim]: +??P34
15:03:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34
15:03:43 [jcheney]: Zakim, ??P34 is me
15:03:49 [dgarijo]: dgarijo has joined #prov
15:03:55 [Satya]: Satya has joined #prov
15:04:00 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:04:01 [Zakim]: +Davy
15:04:05 [Zakim]: +??P42
15:04:17 [Zakim]: +Reza
15:04:23 [Zakim]: +jcheney; got it
15:04:31 [Zakim]: + +1.512.524.aabb
15:04:31 [jcheney]: paul: still working on minutes for F2F
15:04:52 [jcheney]: paul: actions from F2F due today
15:05:09 [ericstephan]: %22
15:05:16 [Zakim]: + +1.216.368.aacc
15:05:16 [jcheney]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:05:24 [Zakim]: +??P35
15:05:30 [Zakim]: +??P44
15:05:53 [jcheney]: eric: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done
15:06:06 [jcheney]: eric: still need contributions
15:06:08 [dcorsar]: dcorsar has joined #prov
15:06:17 [dgarijo]: Zakim, ??P35 is me
15:06:17 [Zakim]: +dgarijo; got it
15:06:23 [rgolden]: rgolden has joined #prov
15:06:25 [jcheney]: paul: stephan is still working on actions
15:06:38 [jcheney]: paul: paulo is not here
15:06:49 [jcheney]: paul: simon's action?
15:06:52 [jcheney]: simon: not done
15:06:54 [ericstephan]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
15:07:12 [jcheney]: simon: action-21 also not done
15:07:24 [jcheney]: paul: james mccusker action-22 - not here
15:07:31 [Zakim]: -jcheney
15:07:39 [jcheney]: simon: action 24 not done
15:07:57 [Zakim]: +??P34
15:08:03 [jcheney]: paul: action-28 assigned to paul not done
15:08:03 [jorn]: zakim, ??p34 is me
15:08:03 [Zakim]: +jorn; got it
15:08:16 [jcheney]: paul: action-26 to satya
15:08:27 [jcheney]: satya: not done
15:08:50 [jcheney]: khalid: action-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of
15:09:13 [jcheney]: paul: action-28 to james myers - not here
15:09:15 [Zakim]: +Yolanda
15:09:33 [Luc]: q+
15:09:33 [jcheney]: paul: graham action-30 to move PAQ document to site
15:09:38 [jcheney]: graham: working on it
15:09:51 [jcheney]: paul: simon action-31 to enact PAQ plan
15:09:54 [jcheney]: simon: done
15:10:17 [jcheney]: paul: action-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style
15:10:33 [Luc]: q?
15:10:35 [jcheney]: paolo: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish
15:10:46 [jcheney]: paul: many actions still open
15:11:07 [jcheney]: paul: scribes needed
15:11:33 [Zakim]: +??P51
15:11:50 [pgroth]: q?
15:11:53 [Christine]: Christine has joined #prov
15:11:57 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:11:57 [Luc]: q-
15:12:02 [jcheney]: luc: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month
15:12:05 [jcheney]: (??)
15:12:23 [jcheney]: TOPIC: Plans for WG in next 3 months
15:12:50 [jcheney]: paul: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology
15:12:58 [jcheney]: paul: also want to deliver access document
15:13:10 [jcheney]: paul: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues
15:13:58 [GK]: I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against
15:14:00 [jcheney]: paul: reports from connection & implementation TFs
15:14:30 [jcheney]: TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force
15:15:10 [Zakim]: -Davy
15:15:22 [jcheney]: eric: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities
15:15:44 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
15:15:52 [jcheney]: eric: yolanda made group poriority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?)
15:16:15 [jcheney]: eric: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors
15:16:47 [Lena]: Lena has joined #prov
15:17:01 [jcheney]: eric: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september
15:17:09 [smiles]: q+
15:17:30 [jcheney]: simon: what does it mean to be a "source"?
15:18:38 [pgroth]: ack smiles
15:18:59 [jcheney]: eric: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs
15:19:12 [GK]: q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document
15:19:23 [Zakim]: +??P41
15:19:32 [Zakim]: -??P14
15:19:43 [Paolo]: zakim, ??P41 is me
15:19:43 [Zakim]: +Paolo; got it
15:19:43 [jcheney]: graham: no reference to commercial compliance
15:20:09 [StephenCresswell]: That was me
15:20:15 [jcheney]: graham: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication
15:20:17 [rgolden]: q+
15:20:29 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:20:29 [Zakim]: GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document
15:20:34 [pgroth]: ack rgolden
15:20:52 [jcheney]: ryan: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages
15:21:16 [ericstephan]: q+
15:21:51 [jcheney]: yolanda: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap
15:22:10 [pgroth]: ack ericstephan
15:22:40 [jcheney]: eric: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report
15:23:10 [jcheney]: yolanda: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind
15:23:16 [Zakim]: -jorn
15:23:30 [Zakim]: +??P14
15:23:39 [jorn]: zakim, ??p14 is me
15:23:39 [Zakim]: +jorn; got it
15:23:46 [jcheney]: yolanda: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario
15:24:08 [Zakim]: +Davy
15:24:21 [SamCoppens]: zakim, Davy is me
15:24:21 [Zakim]: +SamCoppens; got it
15:24:26 [jcheney]: yolanda: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant
15:24:44 [ericstephan]: thank you Yolanda!
15:25:21 [jcheney]: TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force
15:25:24 [pgroth]: lena?
15:25:41 [Reza_BFar_]: Reza_BFar_ has joined #prov
15:25:55 [Lena]: I am having sound problems
15:26:09 [jcheney]: paul: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available
15:26:38 [jcheney]: paul: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week.
15:26:48 [jcheney]: TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force
15:27:01 [jcheney]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html
15:27:07 [Zakim]: +Lena
15:27:40 [jcheney]: simon: working on uploading/revising access draft
15:27:51 [jcheney]: simon: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F
15:28:22 [jcheney]: simon: issues to be raised against draft and discussed
15:28:27 [khalidbelhajjame]: +q
15:28:44 [jcheney]: khalid: what date will document be available for comment
15:28:47 [Yogesh]: +q
15:29:19 [jorn]: zakim, who is talking?
15:29:30 [Zakim]: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%)
15:29:32 [GK]: It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope)
15:29:34 [jcheney]: simon: depends on when W3C version control is set up
15:29:42 [pgroth]: ack khalidbelhajjame
15:29:46 [pgroth]: ack Yogesh
15:29:46 [khalidbelhajjame]: @graham, thanks
15:30:08 [jcheney]: yogesh: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line)
15:30:09 [pgroth]: q?
15:30:23 [jorn]: zakim, who is talking?
15:30:29 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's noisy?
15:30:34 [Zakim]: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%)
15:30:42 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute sandro
15:30:42 [Zakim]: Sandro should now be muted
15:30:44 [Zakim]: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%)
15:30:45 [Yogesh]: www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example
15:30:54 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute sandro
15:30:54 [Zakim]: Sandro should no longer be muted
15:30:59 [jorn]: zakim, please mute lena
15:30:59 [Zakim]: Lena should now be muted
15:31:00 [jcheney]: paul: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september
15:31:02 [Satya]: +1
15:31:03 [khalidbelhajjame]: +1
15:31:06 [olaf]: +1
15:31:09 [tlebo]: +1
15:31:14 [jcheney]: paul: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1
15:31:32 [GK]: +1 (kinda by default, I think)
15:31:36 [MacTed]: +1
15:31:39 [dgarijo]: +1
15:31:41 [rgolden]: +1
15:31:44 [dcorsar]: +1
15:31:48 [smiles]: +1
15:31:50 [Yogesh]: +1
15:31:52 [jcheney]: paul: (meaning the access document)
15:31:57 [Zakim]: -??P51
15:32:02 [SamCoppens]: +1
15:32:28 [tlebo]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force
15:32:30 [jcheney]: paul: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding)
15:32:35 [jorn]: zakim, who is noisy?
15:32:46 [pgroth]: q?
15:32:47 [Zakim]: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%)
15:32:56 [jcheney]: TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Model Task Force
15:33:05 [Zakim]: -Reza
15:33:45 [jcheney]: paolo: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document
15:33:55 [jcheney]: paolo: tried to rephrase without altering semantics
15:34:01 [jcheney]: paolo: baseline for proper document
15:34:02 [Zakim]: +??P0
15:34:03 [Satya]: @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC?
15:34:24 [jcheney]: paolo: threads evolving on list
15:34:44 [jcheney]: paolo: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model
15:35:09 [jcheney]: luc: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready.
15:35:36 [jcheney]: luc: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition. Will discuss with paolo next week
15:35:43 [Luc]: q?
15:35:45 [Satya]: q+
15:36:00 [jcheney]: satya: where is the new consolidated document?
15:36:27 [jcheney]: paolo: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox
15:36:49 [Luc]: q+
15:36:53 [Satya]: q-
15:36:53 [jcheney]: paolo: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it
15:37:01 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:37:03 [pgroth]: q?
15:37:16 [jcheney]: luc: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository
15:37:42 [jcheney]: luc: Instructions will be posted soon
15:38:26 [khalidbelhajjame]: +1 for Paolo's plan
15:38:46 [jcheney]: paul: sandro, why is repository taking so long?
15:38:50 [jcheney]: sandro: don't know
15:38:56 [Zakim]: -jorn
15:39:13 [Zakim]: +??P14
15:39:21 [jorn]: zakim, ??p14 is me
15:39:21 [Zakim]: +jorn; got it
15:39:45 [GK]: @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so
15:39:46 [Satya]: +1
15:39:47 [khalidbelhajjame]: +1
15:39:50 [smiles]: +1
15:39:51 [jcheney]: paul: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1
15:39:53 [jcheney]: +1
15:39:54 [MacTed]: +1
15:39:57 [SamCoppens]: +1
15:40:00 [rgolden]: +1 (me or reza)
15:40:08 [dcorsar]: +1
15:40:17 [pgroth]: q?
15:40:20 [GK]: +1 (to review, comment, propose changes)
15:40:50 [jcheney]: paul: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya
15:41:03 [jcheney]: satya: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model
15:41:22 [jcheney]: satya: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners
15:41:52 [jcheney]: satya: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points
15:41:59 [pgroth]: q?
15:42:22 [jcheney]: graham: assume that ontology will be version controlled?
15:43:03 [tlebo]: q+
15:43:15 [jcheney]: luc: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas
15:43:19 [pgroth]: ack tlebo
15:43:29 [tlebo]: Jim McCusker is speaking
15:43:45 [jcheney]: tim: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible
15:43:51 [tlebo]: That was Jim
15:43:51 [pgroth]: q?
15:43:54 [jcheney]: tim/jim mccusker
15:44:14 [pgroth]: q?
15:44:23 [Paolo]: +1
15:44:24 [khalidbelhajjame]: +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute)
15:44:31 [tlebo]: +1
15:44:32 [MacTed]: +1
15:44:33 [dgarijo]: +1 to help with the owl file
15:44:39 [tlebo]: +1 for Jim McCusker
15:44:42 [jcheney]: paul: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september)
15:44:44 [JimMcCusker]: JimMcCusker has joined #prov
15:44:49 [JimMcCusker]: +1
15:45:02 [jcheney]: +1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help)
15:45:11 [tlebo]: -= my vote for Jim McCusker
15:45:18 [jcheney]: TOPIC: Discussion of Agent
15:45:29 [jcheney]: paul: Did not reach consensus at F2F
15:45:33 [tlebo]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force
15:45:41 [jcheney]: paul: More discission of agent has been on mailing list
15:45:58 [Paolo]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent
15:46:44 [pgroth]: An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity. It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred
15:46:44 [pgroth]: to be an agent by involvement in a process execution.
15:46:46 [jcheney]: paul: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity"
15:46:53 [Zakim]: +??P67
15:47:08 [Zakim]: - +1.509.554.aaaa
15:47:32 [pgroth]: q?
15:47:32 [rgolden]: q+
15:47:33 [jcheney]: paul: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution
15:47:35 [pgroth]: q?
15:47:40 [ericstephan]: sorry have to leave early today
15:47:44 [ericstephan]: ericstephan has left #prov
15:48:03 [GK1]: GK1 has joined #prov
15:48:09 [JimMcCusker]: +q
15:48:15 [pgroth]: ack rgolden
15:48:19 [jcheney]: ryan: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation
15:48:28 [jcheney]: ryan: Suggest renaming process execution to agent
15:48:45 [jcheney]: ryan: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function
15:49:26 [jcheney]: ryan: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization"
15:49:43 [Luc]: q?
15:49:50 [pgroth]: ack JimMcCusker
15:49:58 [Paolo]: zakim, please mute me
15:49:58 [Zakim]: Paolo was already muted, Paolo
15:50:06 [pgroth]: q?
15:50:17 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something)
15:50:34 [dgarijo]: I agree with Jim.
15:50:44 [Satya]: agree with @Jim
15:50:49 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs)
15:50:51 [pgroth]: q?
15:51:41 [jcheney]: ryan:this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob
15:51:44 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:52:03 [Luc]: q?
15:52:08 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:52:12 [pgroth]: q?
15:52:27 [Satya]: @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc.
15:52:32 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way?
15:52:42 [jcheney]: ryan: wikipedia for "software agent"
15:52:58 [Satya]: q+
15:53:05 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals)
15:53:30 [jcheney]: ryan: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization
15:53:40 [pgroth]: ack Satya
15:53:46 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event
15:54:05 [jcheney]: satya: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself
15:54:17 [jcheney]: satya: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent
15:54:30 [jcheney]: satya: deborah mentioned two things about agent:
15:54:38 [jcheney]: satya: 1. making assertion that something is an agent
15:54:39 [Zakim]: -Yolanda
15:54:40 [Zakim]: -jorn
15:54:45 [pgroth]: q?
15:54:55 [Zakim]: +??P14
15:54:57 [jcheney]: satya: 2. is something an agent only if it is involved in a process?
15:55:02 [JimMcCusker]: Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent
15:55:15 [jorn]: zakim, ??p14 is me
15:55:15 [Zakim]: +jorn; got it
15:55:29 [Luc]: q+
15:55:32 [jcheney]: paul: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model? there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party
15:55:52 [jcheney]: luc: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution)
15:56:12 [jcheney]: luc: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe
15:56:30 [pgroth]: q?
15:56:31 [jcheney]: luc: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??)
15:56:33 [Satya]: recipe is a specification in my view
15:57:09 [jcheney]: paul: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification"
15:57:18 [Luc]: @satya: a program is a specification for an execution
15:57:18 [GK]: volitional vs computational?
15:57:20 [jcheney]: paul: Is agent more or less than responsible entity?
15:57:24 [JimMcCusker]: Responsibility is a role of an entity
15:57:27 [pgroth]: q?
15:57:27 [dgarijo]: @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example?
15:57:27 [smiles]: q+
15:57:32 [JimMcCusker]: a participatory role
15:57:37 [JimMcCusker]: q+
15:57:39 [Luc]: q-
15:57:42 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:58:03 [jcheney]: paul: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent"
15:58:36 [pgroth]: ack smiles
15:58:38 [jcheney]: simon: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not
15:59:10 [pgroth]: ack JimMcCusker
15:59:11 [jcheney]: simon: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies
15:59:12 [pgroth]: q?
15:59:44 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process
16:00:05 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies
16:00:24 [Satya]: q+
16:00:28 [jcheney]: jim mccusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context
16:00:42 [pgroth]: ack Satya
16:01:02 [jcheney]: satya: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean? Subscribing to semantics of other model?
16:01:26 [khalidbelhajjame]: +q
16:01:42 [Lena]: +q
16:01:43 [smiles]: q+
16:01:45 [jcheney]: satya: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents
16:02:22 [jcheney]: khalid: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about
16:02:25 [Luc]: q?
16:02:25 [Lena]: can you hear me?
16:02:26 [Paolo]: q+
16:02:27 [jorn]: zakim, unmute lena
16:02:27 [Zakim]: Lena should no longer be muted
16:02:31 [Luc]: ack khal
16:02:36 [pgroth]: ack Lena
16:02:59 [pgroth]: ack smiles
16:03:02 [jcheney]: lena: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies?
16:03:17 [Paolo]: zakim, unmute me
16:03:17 [Zakim]: Paolo was not muted, Paolo
16:03:34 [jcheney]: simon: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents.
16:03:50 [jcheney]: simon: we may need to make assertions about agents
16:04:01 [Satya]: q+ to respond to simon
16:04:03 [jcheney]: lena: we may need to identify agents of change
16:04:20 [pgroth]: ack Paolo
16:04:29 [jcheney]: paolo: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific
16:04:52 [GK]: I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.
16:04:56 [jcheney]: paolo: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points
16:05:20 [jcheney]: paolo: Should be as minimalistic as possible
16:05:24 [pgroth]: q?
16:05:25 [Luc]: q+
16:05:27 [Luc]: q-
16:05:29 [Luc]: q?
16:05:34 [jcheney]: satya: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things:
16:05:36 [pgroth]: ack Satya
16:05:36 [Zakim]: Satya, you wanted to respond to simon
16:05:51 [jcheney]: satya: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts
16:06:06 [jcheney]: satya: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions
16:06:29 [jcheney]: satya: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state
16:06:38 [Paolo]: @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship
16:06:40 [jcheney]: satya: cannot make assertions about relationship only
16:06:53 [Paolo]: but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept
16:07:16 [GK]: I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.
16:07:20 [Luc]: yes, can we have a few examples?
16:07:23 [Paolo]: interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call
16:07:28 [dgarijo]: @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly..
16:07:36 [jcheney]: paul: need examples where it is important to know agency
16:07:37 [Zakim]: -??P0
16:07:39 [Zakim]: -??P44
16:07:39 [Satya]: @paolo and @daniel - agree
16:07:40 [Zakim]: -jorn
16:07:41 [Paolo]: @daniel sure!
16:07:44 [Zakim]: -Lena
16:07:45 [Zakim]: - +1.216.368.aacc
16:07:45 [Zakim]: -khalidbelhajjame
16:07:45 [Zakim]: -olaf
16:07:46 [Zakim]: -tlebo
16:07:48 [Zakim]: -??P22
16:07:50 [Zakim]: -Paolo
16:07:52 [Zakim]: - +1.512.524.aabb
16:07:54 [Zakim]: -dgarijo
16:07:56 [Zakim]: -Luc
16:08:00 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:08:02 [Zakim]: -SamCoppens
16:08:04 [Zakim]: -??P67
16:08:08 [Zakim]: -Yogesh
16:08:12 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:08:16 [Zakim]: -??P10
16:08:16 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
16:08:21 [Yogesh]: Yogesh has left #prov
16:08:23 [pgroth]: rrsagent, set log public
16:08:28 [pgroth]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth
16:08:31 [rgolden]: @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler. It needs to be useful.
16:08:33 [pgroth]: trackbot, end telcon
16:08:33 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:08:33 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc,
16:08:34 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:08:34 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:08:35 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:08:35 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items
16:08:36 [Zakim]: ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena