From Provenance WG Wiki
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14:53:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:53:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc 14:53:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:53:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:53:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:53:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:53:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:53:44 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011 14:54:00 <pgroth> scribe: jcheney 14:54:05 <pgroth> scribe: Paul Groth 14:54:20 <pgroth> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.14 14:54:35 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov 14:55:32 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 14:56:19 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov 14:56:21 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call? 14:56:21 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is 14:56:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot 14:56:36 <ericstephan> I haven't called in yet 14:57:03 <pgroth> zakim, this will be #prov 14:57:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth 14:57:19 <pgroth> zakim, this will be Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:57:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth 14:57:22 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov 14:57:40 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 14:57:42 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be Provenance 14:57:45 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is 14:57:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot 14:57:48 <ericstephan> I am on the call now (muted) 14:57:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth 14:58:22 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:58:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started 14:58:22 <pgroth> chair: Paul Groth 14:58:35 <Zakim> +??P21 14:58:37 <Zakim> +??P25 14:58:44 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 14:58:44 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov 14:58:46 <pgroth> scribe: jcheney 14:58:47 <GK> zakim, ??P21 is me 14:58:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it 14:59:00 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call? 14:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25 14:59:03 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P25 is me 14:59:04 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it 14:59:07 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P7 is me 14:59:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:59:08 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov 14:59:16 <ericstephan> I am 509.554 14:59:30 <Zakim> +tlebo 14:59:49 <Zakim> +Yogesh 15:00:22 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 15:00:30 <tlebo> Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:30 <pgroth> Regrets: Stephan Zednik 15:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh 15:01:08 <Zakim> +olaf 15:01:12 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #prov 15:01:16 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 15:01:20 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 15:01:22 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 15:01:29 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P10 15:01:39 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov 15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10 15:01:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:01:49 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov 15:01:50 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:01:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, 15:02:01 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 15:02:02 <Zakim> ... trackbot 15:02:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:02:24 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:02:44 <Zakim> +??P22 15:02:44 <jorn> zakim, who is on the call? 15:02:48 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P34 15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34 15:03:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P34 is me 15:03:49 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 15:03:55 <Satya> Satya has joined #prov 15:04:00 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:04:01 <Zakim> +SamCoppens 15:04:05 <Zakim> +??P42 15:04:17 <Zakim> +Reza 15:04:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it 15:04:31 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aabb <jcheney> TOPIC: Admin <jcheney> SUMMARY: The minutes for the F2F are still in progress. Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository. 15:04:31 <jcheney> pgroth: still working on minutes for F2F 15:04:52 <jcheney> pgroth: actions from F2F due today 15:05:09 <ericstephan> %22 15:05:16 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aacc 15:05:16 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open 15:05:24 <Zakim> +??P35 15:05:30 <Zakim> +??P44 15:05:53 <jcheney> eric: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done 15:06:06 <jcheney> eric: still need contributions 15:06:08 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov 15:06:17 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P35 is me 15:06:17 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 15:06:23 <rgolden> rgolden has joined #prov 15:06:25 <jcheney> pgroth: stephan is still working on actions 15:06:38 <jcheney> pgroth: paulo is not here 15:06:49 <jcheney> pgroth: simon's action? 15:06:52 <jcheney> smiles: not done 15:06:54 <ericstephan> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report 15:07:12 <jcheney> smiles: action-21 also not done 15:07:24 <jcheney> pgroth: james mccusker action-22 - not here 15:07:31 <Zakim> -jcheney 15:07:39 <jcheney> smiles: action 24 not done 15:07:57 <Zakim> +??P34 15:08:03 <jcheney> pgroth: action-28 assigned to paul not done 15:08:03 <jorn> zakim, ??p34 is me 15:08:03 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:08:16 <jcheney> pgroth: action-26 to satya 15:08:27 <jcheney> satya: not done 15:08:50 <jcheney> khalid: action-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of 15:09:13 <jcheney> pgroth: action-28 to james myers - not here 15:09:15 <Zakim> +Yolanda 15:09:33 <Luc> q+ 15:09:33 <jcheney> pgroth: graham action-30 to move PAQ document to site 15:09:38 <jcheney> graham: working on it 15:09:51 <jcheney> pgroth: simon action-31 to enact PAQ plan 15:09:54 <jcheney> smiles: done 15:10:17 <jcheney> pgroth: action-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style 15:10:33 <Luc> q? 15:10:35 <jcheney> paolo: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish 15:10:46 <jcheney> pgroth: many actions still open 15:11:07 <jcheney> pgroth: scribes needed 15:11:33 <Zakim> +??P51 15:11:50 <pgroth> q? 15:11:53 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov 15:11:57 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:11:57 <Luc> q- 15:12:02 <jcheney> luc: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month 15:12:05 <jcheney> (??) 15:12:23 <jcheney> TOPIC: Brief overview of working group plan <jcheney> SUMMARY: We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology. We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document. The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues. 15:12:50 <jcheney> pgroth: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology 15:12:58 <jcheney> pgroth: also want to deliver access document 15:13:10 <jcheney> pgroth: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues 15:13:58 <GK> I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against 15:14:00 <jcheney> pgroth: reports from connection & implementation TFs 15:14:30 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force <jcheney> SUMMARY: The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact. The report is drafted and contributions are welcome. WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities. Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done. 15:15:10 <Zakim> -SamCoppens 15:15:22 <jcheney> eric: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities 15:15:44 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report 15:15:52 <jcheney> eric: yolanda made group priority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?) 15:16:15 <jcheney> eric: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors 15:16:47 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov 15:17:01 <jcheney> eric: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september 15:17:09 <smiles> q+ 15:17:30 <jcheney> smiles: what does it mean to be a "source"? 15:18:38 <pgroth> ack smiles 15:18:59 <jcheney> eric: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs 15:19:12 <GK> q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document 15:19:23 <Zakim> +??P41 15:19:32 <Zakim> -??P14 15:19:43 <Paolo> zakim, ??P41 is me 15:19:43 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it 15:19:43 <jcheney> graham: no reference to commercial compliance 15:20:09 <StephenCresswell> That was me 15:20:15 <jcheney> graham: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication 15:20:17 <rgolden> q+ 15:20:29 <pgroth> ack GK 15:20:29 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document 15:20:34 <pgroth> ack rgolden 15:20:52 <jcheney> ryan: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages 15:21:16 <ericstephan> q+ 15:21:51 <jcheney> yolanda: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap 15:22:10 <pgroth> ack ericstephan 15:22:40 <jcheney> eric: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report 15:23:10 <jcheney> yolanda: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind 15:23:16 <Zakim> -jorn 15:23:30 <Zakim> +??P14 15:23:39 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me 15:23:39 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:23:46 <jcheney> yolanda: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario 15:24:08 <Zakim> +SamCoppens 15:24:26 <jcheney> yolanda: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant 15:24:44 <ericstephan> thank you Yolanda! 15:25:21 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force <jcheney> SUMMARY: Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point. They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week. 15:25:24 <pgroth> lena? 15:25:41 <Reza_BFar_> Reza_BFar_ has joined #prov 15:25:55 <Lena> I am having sound problems 15:26:09 <jcheney> pgroth: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available 15:26:38 <jcheney> pgroth: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week. 15:26:48 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force <jcheney> SUMMARY: A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress. It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it. Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing. 15:27:01 <jcheney> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html 15:27:07 <Zakim> +Lena 15:27:40 <jcheney> smiles: working on uploading/revising access draft 15:27:51 <jcheney> smiles: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F 15:28:22 <jcheney> smiles: issues to be raised against draft and discussed 15:28:27 <khalidbelhajjame> +q 15:28:44 <jcheney> khalid: what date will document be available for comment 15:28:47 <Yogesh> +q 15:29:19 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:29:30 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%) 15:29:32 <GK> It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope) 15:29:34 <jcheney> smiles: depends on when W3C version control is set up 15:29:42 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame 15:29:46 <pgroth> ack Yogesh 15:29:46 <khalidbelhajjame> @graham, thanks 15:30:08 <jcheney> yogesh: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line) 15:30:09 <pgroth> q? 15:30:23 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:30:29 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy? 15:30:34 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%) 15:30:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute sandro 15:30:42 <Zakim> Sandro should now be muted 15:30:44 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%) 15:30:45 <Yogesh> www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example 15:30:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute sandro 15:30:54 <Zakim> Sandro should no longer be muted 15:30:59 <jorn> zakim, please mute lena 15:30:59 <Zakim> Lena should now be muted 15:31:00 <jcheney> pgroth: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september 15:31:02 <Satya> +1 15:31:03 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:31:06 <olaf> +1 15:31:09 <tlebo> +1 15:31:14 <jcheney> pgroth: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1 15:31:32 <GK> +1 (kinda by default, I think) 15:31:36 <MacTed> +1 15:31:39 <dgarijo> +1 15:31:41 <rgolden> +1 15:31:44 <dcorsar> +1 15:31:48 <smiles> +1 15:31:50 <Yogesh> +1 15:31:52 <jcheney> pgroth: (meaning the access document) 15:31:57 <Zakim> -??P51 15:32:02 <SamCoppens> +1 15:32:28 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force 15:32:30 <jcheney> pgroth: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding) 15:32:35 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy? 15:32:46 <pgroth> q? 15:32:47 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%) 15:32:56 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Model Task Force <jcheney> SUMMARY: Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available. Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft. An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available. Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology. 15:33:05 <Zakim> -Reza 15:33:45 <jcheney> paolo: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document 15:33:55 <jcheney> paolo: tried to rephrase without altering semantics 15:34:01 <jcheney> paolo: baseline for proper document 15:34:02 <Zakim> +??P0 15:34:03 <Satya> @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC? 15:34:24 <jcheney> paolo: threads evolving on list 15:34:44 <jcheney> paolo: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model 15:35:09 <jcheney> luc: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready. 15:35:36 <jcheney> luc: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition. Will discuss with paolo next week 15:35:43 <Luc> q? 15:35:45 <Satya> q+ 15:36:00 <jcheney> satya: where is the new consolidated document? 15:36:27 <jcheney> paolo: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox 15:36:49 <Luc> q+ 15:36:53 <Satya> q- 15:36:53 <jcheney> paolo: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it 15:37:01 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:37:03 <pgroth> q? 15:37:16 <jcheney> luc: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository 15:37:42 <jcheney> luc: Instructions will be posted soon 15:38:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Paolo's plan 15:38:46 <jcheney> pgroth: sandro, why is repository taking so long? 15:38:50 <jcheney> sandro: don't know 15:38:56 <Zakim> -jorn 15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P14 15:39:21 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me 15:39:21 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:39:45 <GK> @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so 15:39:46 <Satya> +1 15:39:47 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:39:50 <smiles> +1 15:39:51 <jcheney> pgroth: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1 15:39:53 <jcheney> +1 15:39:54 <MacTed> +1 15:39:57 <SamCoppens> +1 15:40:00 <rgolden> +1 (me or reza) 15:40:08 <dcorsar> +1 15:40:17 <pgroth> q? 15:40:20 <GK> +1 (to review, comment, propose changes) 15:40:50 <jcheney> pgroth: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya 15:41:03 <jcheney> satya: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model 15:41:22 <jcheney> satya: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners 15:41:52 <jcheney> satya: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points 15:41:59 <pgroth> q? 15:42:22 <jcheney> graham: assume that ontology will be version controlled? 15:43:03 <tlebo> q+ 15:43:15 <jcheney> luc: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas 15:43:19 <pgroth> ack tlebo 15:43:29 <tlebo> Jim McCusker is speaking 15:43:45 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible 15:44:14 <pgroth> q? 15:44:23 <Paolo> +1 15:44:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute) 15:44:31 <tlebo> +1 15:44:32 <MacTed> +1 15:44:33 <dgarijo> +1 to help with the owl file 15:44:39 <tlebo> +1 for Jim McCusker 15:44:42 <jcheney> pgroth: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september) 15:44:44 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov 15:44:49 <JimMcCusker> +1 15:45:02 <jcheney> +1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help) 15:45:11 <tlebo> -= my vote for Jim McCusker 15:45:18 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discussion of Agent <jcheney> SUMMARY: We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion. Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization". The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept. The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples. 15:45:29 <jcheney> pgroth: Did not reach consensus at F2F 15:45:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force 15:45:41 <jcheney> pgroth: More discission of agent has been on mailing list 15:45:58 <Paolo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent 15:46:44 <pgroth> An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity. It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred 15:46:44 <pgroth> to be an agent by involvement in a process execution. 15:46:46 <jcheney> pgroth: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity" 15:46:53 <Zakim> +??P67 15:47:08 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aaaa 15:47:32 <pgroth> q? 15:47:32 <rgolden> q+ 15:47:33 <jcheney> pgroth: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution 15:47:35 <pgroth> q? 15:47:40 <ericstephan> sorry have to leave early today 15:47:44 <ericstephan> ericstephan has left #prov 15:48:03 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov 15:48:09 <JimMcCusker> +q 15:48:15 <pgroth> ack rgolden 15:48:19 <jcheney> ryan: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation 15:48:28 <jcheney> ryan: Suggest renaming process execution to agent 15:48:45 <jcheney> ryan: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function 15:49:26 <jcheney> ryan: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization" 15:49:43 <Luc> q? 15:49:50 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker 15:49:58 <Paolo> zakim, please mute me 15:49:58 <Zakim> Paolo was already muted, Paolo 15:50:06 <pgroth> q? 15:50:17 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something) 15:50:34 <dgarijo> I agree with Jim. 15:50:44 <Satya> agree with @Jim 15:50:49 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs) 15:50:51 <pgroth> q? 15:51:41 <jcheney> ryan:this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob 15:51:44 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:52:03 <Luc> q? 15:52:08 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:52:12 <pgroth> q? 15:52:27 <Satya> @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc. 15:52:32 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way? 15:52:42 <jcheney> ryan: wikipedia for "software agent" 15:52:58 <Satya> q+ 15:53:05 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals) 15:53:30 <jcheney> ryan: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization 15:53:40 <pgroth> ack Satya 15:53:46 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event 15:54:05 <jcheney> satya: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself 15:54:17 <jcheney> satya: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent 15:54:30 <jcheney> satya: deborah mentioned two things about agent: 15:54:38 <jcheney> satya: 1. making assertion that something is an agent 15:54:39 <Zakim> -Yolanda 15:54:40 <Zakim> -jorn 15:54:45 <pgroth> q? 15:54:55 <Zakim> +??P14 15:54:57 <jcheney> satya: 2. is something an agent only if it is involved in a process? 15:55:02 <JimMcCusker> Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent 15:55:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me 15:55:15 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:55:29 <Luc> q+ 15:55:32 <jcheney> pgroth: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model? there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party 15:55:52 <jcheney> luc: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution) 15:56:12 <jcheney> luc: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe 15:56:30 <pgroth> q? 15:56:31 <jcheney> luc: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??) 15:56:33 <Satya> recipe is a specification in my view 15:57:09 <jcheney> pgroth: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification" 15:57:18 <Luc> @satya: a program is a specification for an execution 15:57:18 <GK> volitional vs computational? 15:57:20 <jcheney> pgroth: Is agent more or less than responsible entity? 15:57:24 <JimMcCusker> Responsibility is a role of an entity 15:57:27 <pgroth> q? 15:57:27 <dgarijo> @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example? 15:57:27 <smiles> q+ 15:57:32 <JimMcCusker> a participatory role 15:57:37 <JimMcCusker> q+ 15:57:39 <Luc> q- 15:57:42 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:58:03 <jcheney> pgroth: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent" 15:58:36 <pgroth> ack smiles 15:58:38 <jcheney> smiles: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not 15:59:10 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker 15:59:11 <jcheney> smiles: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies 15:59:12 <pgroth> q? 15:59:44 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process 16:00:05 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies 16:00:24 <Satya> q+ 16:00:28 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context 16:00:42 <pgroth> ack Satya 16:01:02 <jcheney> satya: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean? Subscribing to semantics of other model? 16:01:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q 16:01:42 <Lena> +q 16:01:43 <smiles> q+ 16:01:45 <jcheney> satya: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents 16:02:22 <jcheney> khalid: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about 16:02:25 <Luc> q? 16:02:25 <Lena> can you hear me? 16:02:26 <Paolo> q+ 16:02:27 <jorn> zakim, unmute lena 16:02:27 <Zakim> Lena should no longer be muted 16:02:31 <Luc> ack khal 16:02:36 <pgroth> ack Lena 16:02:59 <pgroth> ack smiles 16:03:02 <jcheney> lena: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies? 16:03:17 <Paolo> zakim, unmute me 16:03:17 <Zakim> Paolo was not muted, Paolo 16:03:34 <jcheney> smiles: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents. 16:03:50 <jcheney> smiles: we may need to make assertions about agents 16:04:01 <Satya> q+ to respond to simon 16:04:03 <jcheney> lena: we may need to identify agents of change 16:04:20 <pgroth> ack Paolo 16:04:29 <jcheney> paolo: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific 16:04:52 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec. 16:04:56 <jcheney> paolo: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points 16:05:20 <jcheney> paolo: Should be as minimalistic as possible 16:05:24 <pgroth> q? 16:05:25 <Luc> q+ 16:05:27 <Luc> q- 16:05:29 <Luc> q? 16:05:34 <jcheney> satya: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things: 16:05:36 <pgroth> ack Satya 16:05:36 <Zakim> Satya, you wanted to respond to simon 16:05:51 <jcheney> satya: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts 16:06:06 <jcheney> satya: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions 16:06:29 <jcheney> satya: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state 16:06:38 <Paolo> @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship 16:06:40 <jcheney> satya: cannot make assertions about relationship only 16:06:53 <Paolo> but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept 16:07:16 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec. 16:07:20 <Luc> yes, can we have a few examples? 16:07:23 <Paolo> interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call 16:07:28 <dgarijo> @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly.. 16:07:36 <jcheney> pgroth: need examples where it is important to know agency 16:07:37 <Zakim> -??P0 16:07:39 <Zakim> -??P44 16:07:39 <Satya> @paolo and @daniel - agree 16:07:40 <Zakim> -jorn 16:07:41 <Paolo> @daniel sure! 16:07:44 <Zakim> -Lena 16:07:45 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aacc 16:07:45 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame 16:07:45 <Zakim> -olaf 16:07:46 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:07:48 <Zakim> -??P22 16:07:50 <Zakim> -Paolo 16:07:52 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aabb 16:07:54 <Zakim> -dgarijo 16:07:56 <Zakim> -Luc 16:08:00 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:08:02 <Zakim> -SamCoppens 16:08:04 <Zakim> -??P67 16:08:08 <Zakim> -Yogesh 16:08:12 <Zakim> -Sandro 16:08:16 <Zakim> -??P10 16:08:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp 16:08:21 <Yogesh> Yogesh has left #prov 16:08:23 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 16:08:28 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth 16:08:31 <rgolden> @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler. It needs to be useful. 16:08:33 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon 16:08:33 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 16:08:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc, 16:08:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:08:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot 16:08:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 16:08:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 16:08:36 <Zakim> ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000469