See also: IRC log
<glazou> Regrets from Tab, BradK, John, Cesar
<glazou> Regrets from Arno
<glazou> lol
<kimberlyblessing> ChrisL, I think you're just using me because I'm an easy target
<glazou> dsinger_: http://www.leonidas-chocolate.com/gianduja.html
<glazou> dsinger_: there is a leonidas store at walking distance (20 meters) from the meeting place...
<glazou> eh
<scribe> scribenick: ChrisL
bert: my fault, sent a message to the requests but sent it to wrong place
(that was tpac)
ChrisL: I sent a reminder, should be soon
ChrisL: the ed is much more up to date
jdaggett: prefer to wait a bit untilmore edits made
<dsinger_> Unless it is actively misleading without the edits, let's publish an then again
jdaggett: muchprefer we do
plinss: spoke to Susan about that
fantasai: we could meet elsewhere
<dsinger_> Ugh
glazou: confirmed, we will meet Sunday and willsort out a location later if there is no room at the hotel
<fantasai> fantasai: We had talked about meeting elsewhere if the hotel was not available
jdaggett: goes back to
text-orientation. issue of default
... means for a string of random unichars what is the behavious
in vertical with no extramarkup
... non-normative wording recommends but not clear if its
normative or not
... some contextualrules. koji published a tableof these
... spoke to eric mueller of adone who said its better for
Unicode to have a table
<jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0003.html
jdaggett: similar but with some important differences
<fantasai> Um, I don't understand why jdaggett is confused, perhaps he hasn't looked at the draft recently. It says very clearly that the orientations are unequivocally *defined* in Appendix C
<fantasai> because that's what he wanted
jdaggett: says to define a categoryfor each to decide the default orientation
<jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0042.html
jdaggett: differences between erics proposal and current spec
<dsinger_> Isn't material not explicitly marked informative considered therefore normative?
jdaggett: there is also a category called 'use font' which depends on whether the font has vertical metrics. not clear why that is there
<fantasai> dsinger_: That is my understanding.
jdaggett: also some are in basic
latin range
... hope koji willadd somethingto clarify if this is
important
... Unicode is the right org to maintain this
<dsinger_> Has Koji been asked to explain? Has the Unicode committee been asked?
<smfr> tumbleweed
szilles: support Eric's proposal
<dsinger_> Ok
szilles: Unicode has been aske
and asked Eric to do it
... its a legitimate Uniocode activity
... issue of deciding whether its upright is independent of the
vertical metrics
fantasai: if there is no
alternate vertical glyph, its better to use the horizontal
one
... but we classify fonts as having or not having vertical
fonts, this is a bad idea because some fonts have
verticalmetrics but lack vertical alternate glyphs
... willproduce brackets that dont encase anything, looks all
wrong
jdaggett: most japanese fonts
that are used in web pages have vertical metrics
... dont see actual fonts that have these faults
fantasai: dounble quotes in Chinese are unified
jdaggett: can't connect thatto your algorithm
fantasai: three categories - upright always, vertical always and depends on font
szilles: then the font is bad and people will stop using it
jdaggett: adding lots of
mechanics that are not needed
... issues of fallback too,may hit a Japanese or not Japanese
font. fallback fonts are random
... if you are making another proposal, we need to look at
that.
... some discussion not on www-style
<dsinger_> But I think that the case where you hoped for a vertical font but got fallback should be handled?
szilles: adobe position is that
upright should not be determined by looking in the font. you
decide upright or notthen use the font infortmation
... if you correct bad fonts then you break good ones
... not clear there is an immediate need to fix bad fonts
fantasai;author does not always have that opportunity
scribe: common example is em-dashes. often no verticalalternates, but if typeset sideways you get the wrong positioning
jdaggett: we are talking about
the default,not what is possible and not possible.
... so why make the simple case complex, authors can solve with
markup
fantasai: markup does not fix bad fonts
szilles: thought this onlyapplied if it was set upright
fantasai: correct behaviour is to set them upright and for all fonts to have alternates
jdaggett: if there are cases nt covered by Erics proposal we need to flush them out. Can't do this on the fly
jdaggett; need to record the examples
szilles: put on a wiki
fantasai: Koji and I are making a list of allthe codepoints and their behaviour
szilles: vert feature only
applies to upright characters in vertical text
... not to rotated characters
jdaggett: some ascii chars have
no vertical alternates,and this sounds as if it is making the
alternats on the fly
... synthesising is always problematic.
fantasai: so its a semantic confusion. you think i am synthesisingan upright glyph where I see it as fallback
jdaggett: want to see a clear definition of why its a problem. need specific use cases
szilles: rotation is only one way to synthesise a glyph
fantasai: how else would you do it
szilles: dont want the synthesis to be codified
fantasai: distinction between
chars that look upright and ones that must have an
alternate
... hiragana miht have a different positioning for
example
... but if not alternate, its fine if its missing
... while for parentheses, an alternate is mandatory
jdaggett: in either case it is the same
fantasai: not really
szilles: these are different types of wrong
jdaggett: common pattern in
western companies is to develop japanese fonts in China and the
shae is known but the patterns are wrong. so the placement of
hragana is wrong and looks wrong
... very helpfulto have what you are now proposaing, different
from the spec as it is now
szilles: markup to set vertical shoudltrigger the vert feature
fantasai: definition of upright is thatallchars are upright
jdaggett: only apply vert feature to runs of vert text
szilles: want synthesis so only done after upright or not has been determined
jdaggett: please post proposalto www-style
dsinger: good to see a comparison
jdaggett: posted that earlier
dsinger: good to see some more written discussion
jdaggett: there is a lot of data
on the list
... but little in responses
szilles: so we have a distinction
between the determination phase and the fixup phase
... this is an important result of todays discussion
... dont care if this is updated in the spec first or in a
proposal
jdaggett: we need more analysis on the data before updatingthe spec
<fantasai> Zakim: aagg is fantasai
jdaggett: we need to talk about specific characters in specific situations where it breaks in vertical
szilles: please say that on the list
jdaggett: ok
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0058.html
<glazou> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ae.htm#cpsp
glazou: fantasai you raised the issue
fantasai: yes.
szilles: thought we were trying to avoid property interactions
<glazou> we lost Chris
jdaggett: cpsp is capital
spacing, and in InDesign its enabled if you set all caps on a
selection. slightly widens the spacing
... as default spacig is for mixed case
... problem is that applying text transform wont give the
effect if text is already in caps. regularly pointed out.
should be intrinsic to the font
<jdaggett> http://kltf.de/downloads/ATypI2007-CrossingBorders-kltf.pdf
jdaggett: seep.28 of that ATypI
presentation
... slide shows standard spacing, and cpsp, and contextual
kerning
... spacing is really intrinsic to the font,not a feature
... not clearif we should support this feature; better to add
to font-variant as an exclusinve value to stop people
usingwirth small caps. to avoid feature interactions
... hoping to hear more typophile opinions. on the top of my
head its not a good idea
fantasai: so tentative resolution is this is not an issue
jdaggett; yes. people can always use lower levelfeatures to tweak this
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011May/0602.html
fantasai: if dropping accents its
complicated. its not just 'remove allthe accents'
... unicode tablesare for single letters not for
wholewords
... whole words drop accents so does the first letter
... not in Unicode and not doablewith a simpletable. so we
shouldnot require it, but we couldallow it
howcome: could so this with a dictionary
glazou;from a users perspective it shouldcertainly be allowed
jdaggett: slippery slope to allow UAs to do their own thing
glazou: we should accept what
native Greek users want
... Unicode works with characters and glyphs, not words
szilles: line break rules are word based
fantasai: only one character lookup
<fantasai> szilles, actually, the line break rules are character-pair based
ChrisL: Unicode has some problems withGreek already
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to contact Unicode about the greek upercasingissue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-css-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-362 - Contact Unicode about the greek upercasingissue [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-14].
fantasai: ok great but that wont
help this spec in the short term
... preference is to have what is in Unicode as a minimum bar
and allow better
jdaggett: concurr with minimum bar, uneasy on extending
glazou: not only browsers render html/css
jdaggett; happyif they hit that minimum bar
glazou: elika you should add both suggestions
jdaggett;dont like the "if and only if" language
fantasai: please post wording proposals
<scribe> ACTION: jdaggett to post wording proposals [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-css-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-363 - Post wording proposals [on John Daggett - due 2011-09-14].
<dsinger> bye
resolution: uas can do better than the Unicode minimum
fantasai please turn my jumbled crap into nice minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found ScribeNick: ChrisL Inferring Scribes: ChrisL WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Apple Bert CSSWG_LogBot ChrisL Hixie Martijnc Microsoft Ms2ger P3 P36 P41 P49 SteveZ TabAtkins aaaa aabb aacc aadd aaee aaff aagg alexmog anne arronei bradk cathy dbaron dsinger dsinger_ ed fantasai glazou gsnedders hober howcome jdaggett karl kimberlyblessing krijnh lhnz miketayl_r miketaylr nimbupani plinss scribenick shepazu smfr stearns szilles trackbot vhardy You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Got date from IRC log name: 07 Sep 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-css-minutes.html People with action items: chris jdaggett[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]