EOWG 02 Sep 2011


  1. Discuss ATAG comments sent to the list
  2. ATAG promotion:
  3. Update on business case slides - HTML version & video
  4. Discuss any comments on Slidy Help in wiki
  5. Update on Updating Policies Relating to Web Accessibility - revised Introduction/front matter available for comment
  6. Add ideas to TPAC 2011 session ideas
  7. Reminders:
  8. (optional at end) Wiki editing


Shawn, Shadi, Andrew, Sylvie, Wayne, Cliff, Ian, Jennifer, Denis
Helle, Vicki, Jason


ATAG comments

Shawn: Everyon is welcome to submit individual comments before the Sept 15th deadline. If you want EO to submit something, send to to list, we'll discuss and submit group comments.

ATAG promotion

Shawn: We began discussing this at Face-to-Face, Sharron you have the minutes in Word.

Sharron: Yes will dig those up and send.

Shawn: We talked about email campaigns, print materials, article submission and where video will fit in
... they are very short intro pieces.

Jennifer: Nomensa, Derek Featherstone and others have been putting out short videos on how screen readers work with ARIA and such. They are getting lots of mentions on Twitter. Seems like these videos could do the same for us. Short is key.

Shawn: Given the cost and process for approval of print materials, I am not optimistic about getting print pieces made. So what are thoughts about video?

Denis: I think I have mentioned previously what Google is doing with video. I like the idea of posing a problem and then addressing it through short video.

Wayne: I think it is worth doing.

Jennifer: Maybe just do one or two and see what happens with them. Gauge how well they are received and decide whether to do more.

<Shawn> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WAI_Outreach_Videos

Denis: We can see pretty quickly by watching Twitter response and how it catches on in social media.

Shawn: OK let's look at some of these, and recall that we mentioned the possibility of not just focusing on ATAG but looking at the big picture, the entire suite of guidelines.

<Sharron> I strongly favor the idea of promoting the big picture, the entire suite - (not just ATAG alone) - that's how it makes sense to people

Andrew: So you are thinking of doing generic ATAG UAAG WCAG rather than including the version number?

Shawn: Yes. And the thought is that future ones may have a different style. For example the Harmonization one could be more formal.

Denis: Where it says "Visual" you just see the illustration, no voice?

Shawn: Two options, one with a talking head and; other with pictures and voice over.

Andrew: Denis, can you send a pointer to the video you mentioned?

Denis: OK and within a week I will have a YouTube video page to send people to.

Jennifer: Congratulations, must have been a lot of work.

Denis: Yes, but was really fun to do.

Shawn: Next one is ATAG and mentions involving users. Are these good things to include? Should we do something different?

<AndrewA> WRT ATAG vid - what about a message to corporate web teams to put ATAG in their requirement spec

Sharron: Explain the visual content, please.

Shawn: Just those two words - ATAG and users

Cliff: That would be a good start but something has to go on besides just that.

<Shawn> wishlist: series of people with disabilities using different adaptive strategies & AT

Jennifer: That could be kind of odd. These things are very difficult. PR can be a slippery slope into serious streotyping.

Shawn: It's good to point out. Back in 2005 and we were talking about pictures.

<dboudreau> OK, finally found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH2dgQ3G9vs

Jennifer: There is bound to be a way, but need to be very conscious.

Shawn: Would be great to have a series of videos of PWD using AT and adaptive strategies.

<Shawn> e.g., list of videos: http://www.uiaccess.com/accessucd/resources_videos.html

Jennifer: There is alot of that out there, I wonder if we need to do it again. Can we just point? I know there is the danger of endorsement, but seems like we don't need to re-do.

Andrew: I point people to the uiaccess list of videos often - good to have the comment

Shawn: The intro to screenreaders by Trace from years ago is still very good, but some are just too long.

Cliff: Maybe we could just watch a bunch of them to help focus our thoughts about what would be useful.

Shawn: Look at what's out there, and then please add your thoughts to the wiki. Any other general comments about ATAG promotion?

Andrew: Message needs to be broadcast about how to get CMS and other vendors to pay attention through the purchasing process.
... many think of authoring tools only in terms of HTML authoring, need to include enterprise tools as well.

Shawn: There is a WAI-IG thread about CMS and authoring tools. Maybe that is one of the primary messages that we need to present. What do we mean by authoring tools? What does ATAG cover?

<Shawn> >>> ATAG msging - includes CMS, etc

<Shawn> >>> also internal development of tools

Denis: Most people have not heard of ATAG or UAAG. Never crosses their minds to work on tools. We should at least address from the angle of CMS or support as users maintain web sites etc. Following these guidelines will adapt the process to broad needs. We should helppeople understand the need for this.

Shawn: How could you put this in one sentence?

Denis: When developing content, follow WCAG, when developing tools follow ATAG.

Cliff: In spelling ATAG - people may not understand that in this one case we are not referring to AT as assitive technology. When creating CMS these are the goals to achieve and part of the process should be documenting how you meet the ATAG guideline. We need a concise guide (like the WebAIM infographic) to let people know what ATAG is, that they should follow it and that they should document it. And make the point that this should not be confused with the fact that in every other place that we use AT, we mean assistive tech.

Char: I work with Help authoring tools. Might be local, print, on the web. Often CMS or CMS-like. ATAG applies to Help Authoring Tools, too (for creating online Help and user assistance documentation)
... when talking with help authoring tool vendors we took the approach not that they need to do this but they should WANT to do this and gave them reasons why.
... these vendors have been talking among themselves about this and have active interest.

Shawn: If they can integrate accessibility within a year or so, they may want to be show cased as formal implementation examples.

Jennifer: I am trying to work on Wordpress and get them to do formal implementation.
... Denis, to your language would just add "developing or choosing tools"

Ian: Agree with that. Perhaps we need two layers of support. First those already sold on accessibility and providing them with the specifics of successful implementation. Another group would be those developers who may do things if they think it is easy. Don't want to put them off with long line of checklists.
... may want to have both a light and a fully packed version.

<AndrewA> +1 to Ian

Shawn: ATAG at a glance is something we are still looking at.

Jennifer: Yes, Wordpress folks have said they feel overwhelmed by ATAG

Shawn: One of the challenges of WCAG-At-A-Glance was the need to fit it on a card. Would not have that constraint with ATAG-At-A-Glance.

Cliff: with the at-a-glance, it seems like window shopping. It does not really address the actual need: give me the specific tools to do a specific job. The window shopping version won't get the job done.

Shawn: We have talked about application guides: How do I make my table accessible? how do I make my forms accessible? etc.
... anthing else on ATAG promotion?...
... remember at the F2F, there were two aspects: making tools that help developers make accessible content; helping users be able to put content on the web. All may write!

Wayne: Good angle, accessible CMS too

Sharron: +1

<Shawn> accessible writing, accessible writing, accessible writing (with ATAG)

<Shawn> accessibile content management

Wayne: as well as making sure that what you write is widely accessible.
... in a large institution, it is almost inevitable that they will turn to a CMS. CMS helps to manage accessiblity

<clifftyllick> ...with Drupal! ;-)

Wayne: want an accessible web site - use WCAG
... to manage an accessible web site, use ATAG

<AndrewA> and ATAG gives you WCAG :)

Jennifer: One more brainstorm for ATAG group, could they come up with a requirements checklist for buyers? If I were to look for a CMS could they come up with a list that will help me make the right choice?

<Shawn> dealing with overwhelming -- instead of at a glance -> progressive disclosure

Shawn: The Success Criteria?

Denis: Maybe something along the lines of a checklist for buyers, and can we not make it a Section 508 thing only?
... let's make it more widely applicable.

Shawn: Yes it would be ATAG, not 508

Wayne: Could recruit another EO member with experience in purchasing accessible tools?

Shawn: See if she wants to participate widely or just advise on this project.

Jennifer: Perhaps she could comment directly to ATAG.

Shawn: Active participant in the short term or just the role of reviewing drafts. I can talk to her about what she might be interested in doing.
... anything else?

Update on business case slides

Shawn: Char working on the challenging job of the HTML version. It is coming along, thanks Char! Will have the final version in September.
... any questions?

Discuss comments on Slidy Help

Shawn: Will also have a version that people will use for self study and perhaps presentations.
... default help was not so helpful. Wayne took a pass at improving it, comments entered.

Cliff: Do we just jump in and edit the wiki?

Wiki editing

Shawn: We have talked about using the wiki. Two things now in the wiki, outreach videos and Slidy help. The idea is that everyone can edit.
... we can have only EO people to edit or can have anyone with W3 account can edit. Right now anyone can edit.
... we should discuss how to proceed. Do we talk to people first?

Cliff: There is a page to discuss changes and also the option to "watch." Does that mean you get email?

Jennifer: That has been my experience.

Cliff: So do we ask first and then make changes? or just jump in?

<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to say that unfortunately no e-mail notification yet

Shawn: It is what we need to decide as a group.

Shadi: I wish that email feature was included, but so far not.

Shawn: Could do something like - if you make changes list them. How useful is the dif version?

Shadi: I find the dif very useful, it shows changes side by side and highlights using bolding and colors.
... accessibility is probably not where we want it to be.

Jennifer: To me I would not want that to slow progress. We could add a quick note to say the three main changes I made are these.

Shadi: I suggest that if you are only making typo changes you can choose to say "minor change"

Shawn: Straw proposal: If you want to be notified of significant changes, add yourself. When you make changes, list the changes in the discussion tab.

Jennifer: Seems sensible.

Denis: Are we interested in getting a more thorough assessment of Slidy within different browsers and different AT situations.
... get more detail about what is not working and getting proposals to fix.

Shawn: Don't know that it is a high priority.

Wayne: Are Sylvie's notes in there?

Shawn: Yes

Jennifer: Is Slidy the W3C's?

Shawn: Yes

Andrew: I think there are places in Slidy where you can give instructions across the screen. The Before and After is useful.

Sylvie: I could not see where the changes were on the wiki

Sylvie: I have some experience but I think each one is somewhat different. I did not use the DIF version but used the last changes page. If "page 8" had been changed I did not always know it, so a summary of changes is needed.

Shawn: We don't have the email alert yet but will have to do it manually.

Denis: Getting back to the original question about EO or wider participation?

Shawn: We are not going to push our rules onto W3C. We won't make requirements on how others edit it. In the future, do we want to have an EO only wiki?

Denis: I thought we did have an EO-only wiki. But for general collaboration makes sense to be wider group.

Wayne: I don't think it is effective for doing major changes. Need a check-out and submit process. It is not a great tool for that. Spot edits however are well done here.

Cliff: Probably need on this document at least to talk about changes before they are made.

Shawn: If email discussion it can be among you three with copy to editors list.

Wayne: OK, it really works for spot edits. For substantial edits however, you need to check out work extensively and check back in.

Slidy Help

<Zakim> AndrewA, you wanted to ask about case sensitivity in Slidy

Andrew: I previously mentioned the possibility of screen grabs, and think illustrations can help. All the commands that are letter driven seem to be represented in capital letters. Is that correct?

Shawn: It is not , perhaps you will change to lower case?

Andrew: I'll check.

<IanPouncey> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/downloads.html

<IanPouncey> PDF: http://images.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/pdf/VoiceOver_SnowLeopard_Keyboard_Color.pdf

Ian: How easy is it to make a voice over with the keyboard letters emphasized?

Jennifer: And for the accessible version you could put them into a table.

Shawn: That would be great if you want to do it.

Ian: OK, I'll do it.

Cliff: I think we need to break it into two : how to create and how to present in Slidy.

Cliff: organization and rearrangement seems to be needed.

<AndrewA> letter-based commands are not case sensitive - I will edit to make them lower case (and add a note)

Shawn: There was a question on WAI-IG about using with a screen reader, we need to see if we have answered the question or need to address.

Cliff: The item about JAWS and IE not working together, need to list under both.

Jennifer: The more you flesh it out, the worse you make Slidy look.

Shawn: And remember this is a minor project for us.

Wayne: Do we want to contact Dave and tell him what we've done?

Shawn: Yes I will

Cliff: Before we point him here, let me fill it out.

Shawn: There is no more content.
... this is supposed to be the quick short help for someone viewing it online. If you want to present with this, you would want more detail.

Jennifer: Thanks Sylvie for the time you spent testing and documenting.

Policies page update

Shawn: Jennifer and I have been working on it and the revised intro and front matter are there. Send policy updates if you have them.
... we have updates from Helle, Andrew, Sylvie. Plan to announce the first update and solicit more updates.


Shawn: Wednesday is plenary, Mon Tues is EO. Plenary day will be break-out session/BarCamp style sessions.
... some will be planned in advance and some may be spontaneous. You are encouraged to add your ideas to the wiki.

Sharron: Maybe one for purchasing accessible CMS based on ATAG by Wayne's freind

Shawn: If she would participate, she would need to be a member. Will still be working on ATAG.
... what else to talk about that non-EO groups would be interested in?

Denis: Is need to get closer to task force of the HTML5 working group?
... there are many discussions of accessibility within HTML5, are we all up to date on that work?

Sharron: I would love to hear more about that.

Jennifer: But politically tricky and perhaps not in a public forum.

Shawn: It is invitation only, only participants of working groups.
... run it by Judy but my first reaction is yes it would be a great suggestion.

Denis: The web is full of those controversial topics already, it is public. I will see what the possibilities are.

<AndrewA> Debbie Dahl's "web in the world" looks interesting

Wayne: Session on limitations of WCAG2

Shawn: I wouldn't want to say "limitations" would be more comfortable seeing how things develop in next few weeks. Related things like how the mobile issues impact accessibility, etc.

Denis: The future of web accessibility WCAG 2.1 or 3.0

Shadi: I am concerned that we are exceeding scope of EO. Technical work is happening somewhere else and we should not duplicate it.
... especially in the PF working group.

<Sharron:But aren't we talking about topics we're interested in, not what work we would take on

<AndrewA> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas

Andrew: Lot of interest all around the world tieing accessibility to mobile, tablets, convergence.

Wayne: HTML5 is a good example - there is almost nothing on accessibility. We need to start looking forward.

Denis: Yes we will have to address it at some point.

<Zakim> Shawn, you wanted to think broadly about topics of interest to those outside of EO and even WAI....

Shawn: I would encourage you to bring that to Judy. EO can only do anything in cooperation with other work of fellow groups.
... think broadly about what would be of interest, look at suggested topics, add accessibility notes to existing and/or sugest additional topics.
... Update availability for EO meetings. If anyone wants to stay on for wiki training, good. Otherwise, we are adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/10/03 13:45:52 $