MINUTES EOWG 22 Jul 2011


Business Case slides (ppt)

Discussed the [broad view of accessibility] slide (currently 5) and issues with the quote being from a WAI person. Decided to leave it there for now, add in the presenter notes to consider using a local person and to include Tim's quote, and look for another quote (action below).

[update: Done - uploaded new version of the slides on 22 July.]

ACTION: All (especailly Wayne and maybe Ian): Look for a quote from a widely-respected, internationally-recognized business leader or organization that provides a broad view of accessibility and introduces the first part of the presentation - that accessibility is required for people with a wide range of disabilities (even famous people), benefits the growing population of older users, helps people in a wide variety of situations, makes your website more effective & usable.

Discussed Denis's comment in the survey "I would like to add data on 65+ if possible on slide 9 : Canada is expected to have 24,7% of its population by 2051..., but in no way is this a show stopper for me." Decided not to complicate the slide by adding another stat, especially from a different source. Decided instead to make sure it is available from the referenced presentation. The notes currently say: "Note to presenters: Customize with statistics relevant to your audience. Some other statistics available from "Web Accessibility for Older Users" Presentation available from www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/ageing/ "

[update: Unfortunately it is not there. Shawn will ask Denis to develop a slide to add to the older users presentation (at the end with other country-specific ones).]

Current Work Priorities

Reviewed the list at current work and discussed upcoming work. Also a little discussion on the new WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force.


  1. Business Case slides (ppt)
  2. Review current work


Char, Andrew, Helle, Sylvie, Wayne, Shawn, Shadi, Sharron, IanPouncey
Cliff, Liam, Vicki, Emmanuelle, Jennifer


Business Case Slides

call for review e-mail

Shawn: We have had the Business Case slides ready and the survey up for review for a few weeks. There is no hard date, my hope is that you might get to review the slides in the next few days.

<Shawn> Discuss the [broad view of accessibility] slide (currently 5). It introduces the first part of the presentation - that accessibility is required for people with a wide range of disabilities (even famous people), benefits the growing population of older users, helps help people in a wide variety of situations, makes your website more effective & usable.

Shawn: Is this quote a good way to introduce these? Should we try to find a similar quote from someone else, e.g., an internationally-recognized business leader? If so, any suggestions?

Char: The second part may not be needed. The formatting is strange and the second part is not even a complete sentence.

Wayne: Shawn, what is your dissatisfaction with this quote?

Shawn: The point was raised that the quote might be awkward in that place and so I wanted more feedback. Part of it is the question of what is the primary use of the presentation? If it is as a WAI presentation, then is it awkward to have a quote from a WAI person? However, since we want others to customize the talk, does the WAI connection make more sense in that context? Finally, if we had a similar statement from an international business leader would that bestronger?

Andrew: When I first saw it with a quote from you, my reaction was that it does seem odd to have a WAI presentation with an insider quote. I have grown more comfortable with that but support the idea of dropping the second part as suggested by Char.
...if we could incorporate quotes from others, from business people at other parts of the talk, I agree that it would add to the strength of the argument.

Shawn: We do have two additional quotes later on.

Sharron: +1...to Char's comment

Andrew: Is that a formatting style that you've adopted using an opening quote with no closing quote?

Shawn: Yes, but happy to discuss that aspect as well.
... it is a design aspect of the presentation.

Wayne: I have no problem with quoting you, Shawn. W3c is an international organization and good to have it quoted. You might have a problem with it if you were giving the lecture.
... but personally I don't find that a problem.

Shawn:Have used this in many presentations, but don't have my name on the slide.

Sharron: No objection to quote from Shawn henry but let's follow your alternative idea of a business person quote - do you have anyone in mind?

Shawn: No one, but happy to brainstorm.

Wayne: We might look at some big companies that we know, like Walgreen's.

Shawn: Sharron sent one.

<shawn> "When you address product development from the standpoint of accessibility, it makes for a better design in general. It streamlines the process for engineering, quality assurance, and support. We are proud of how our products have evolved and see the ATI as a facilitator, making it easier for us to gather and incorporate user feedback."

<shawn> "There are tangible benefits for both sides. The vendor provides a better product, we are happier with the product, and we feel empowered with a voice to shape future products.

<shawn> quote from the makers of Elluminate

<shawn> Heiblum

<AndrewA> just "When you address product development from the standpoint of accessibility, it makes for a better design in general."

Ian: Never heard of the company or the person.
... And I have no problem at all with the slide as it is. If there was a great quote from someone else, we could use it. Just not sure that we need to go looking for one.

Shadi: This intervention did not come from me but I shared Andrew's concern that self-referencing is a bit odd. How about Tim's quote?

<shadi> [["The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect." -- Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web]]

Shawn: Does it relate to the business case specifically?

Ian: No, it seems not.

Shadi: But does it say the same as what we have now but relieve the self-referecing problem?

Shawn: Certainly Tim's is the bigger name, but that quote is not focused on the business aspect that we talk about next in the slides, and is still self-referencing from W3C.

Ian: ...and it's a lot longer.

<hbj> It's ok

Shawn: If there are no other thoughts, let's leave it for now and keep it in our mind as a wish list for consideration. If any of us finds something better or talks to someone who will provide a quote, we'll bring it to the group.

Shadi: I don't feel too strongly, but just raise the point that this quote is no more business focused than Tim's and I would prefer to see Tim's quote here but will go along with majority.

Sharron: Seems like no one has strong feelings or any good idea of what to replace it with.

Wayne: We could probably find a really good quote if we look. Want me to look?

Shawn: Yes look, but let's have a default established since we have had a draft since January and don't want to hold this up waiting for what's perfect.

Wayne: This quote is more to the point for this context, so I would vote for this to be the default.

Shawn: Put one in the slide and another in the Speaker Notes as an alternative?

<Sylvie> good idea

Wayne: Good idea

Sharron +1

<AndrewA> +1

<hbj> +1

<AndrewA> and could add other options as we find them

Shadi: So which will go where?

Sharron: Leave in the Shawn quote, offer Tim's as the alternative

<Sylvie> +1

<Wayne> +1.5

Sharron: Urge us to keep antennae out for strong business leader quote

Shawn: Or approach someone and aske them to say this.

<IanPouncey> Steve Jobs: "Many users that had no interest in our little company started taking notice that we were in the accessibility market - and many began giving our product offerings another glance."

Helle: In the speaker's notes could also suggest they find local business leaders to quote.

<IanPouncey> http://noeyesneeded.com/2011/07/a-transcript-from-a-special-apple-press-event-regarding-accessibility/

Sharron: The Steve Jobs quote is not as focused on how this does good for people in general

Ian: The name of this presentation is "The Business case..."

Sharron: Yes, I am not saying it has no value to the overall theme, but changes the meaning of this slide and is not as good at positioning the follow-on slides.

Shadi: Ian spent a few minutes and came up with something and though I know we want to close the process, I think we may find a business leader quote if we look around a bit.

[update: further investigate found that the quote is from a satirical blog post and is not true]

Helle: What kind of person are looking for to quote? Do we want someone whose name would be recognized around the world? or locally recognized people?

Shawn: I think putting that in the Speaker's Notes to look for local leaders is a great idea and we will do that. But as a default it would be best to have a recognized name.
... so keep looking out for a quote, look at how it fits in the presentation, something that introduces the notion that it works for more people. More people with disabilities, more of those who are aging, more who have various needs. The quote is meant to set up that idea.
... thanks for taking the time. I know it seems a bit detailed, but it is best to get a quote that everyone is happy with.
... Looking at the survey, Wayne's comment that the tree was too green. Vicki commented on that too and I changed the text to normal format and shrunk the tree.
... Denis had a comment to add Canadian data to aging slide.
... we have asked people to customize to their own location and provided a pointer to other statistics along with suggestion to customize.
... my suggestion is not to add Canadian data but to be sure the data is in the pointed-to place.

Andrew: Were you suggesting to add a line on the slide "Your Country Here"?

Shawn: No, was thinking just to put it in the Notes.

Ian: It works if you have the data available.

Shawn: Is there anything else on these Business Case slides?

Review of Current Work and Related Points

Shawn: WAI-Age work to complete, etc

<AndrewA> http://www.w3.org/WAI/training/accessible

<shawn> How to Make Presentations Accessible to All http://www.w3.org/WAI/training/accessible

Shawn: Looking at #6 How to Make Presentations Accessible, we need to do two things. Address the submitted comment that said to make it easier to focus on what I need to do as a speaker rather than what is beyond my control and that the organizers must think of. And second, now that we have the expand/collapse function, do we want to re-organize the presentation format?
... we might want to do something different with the last section.

Shadi: Looking at the last part, it would be light editorial stuff to revise the flow when in the two states. If the content is collapsed will the flow still be clear?

Helle: I still have problems in IE7 for collapse to work properly.

Shadi: I am working on it.

Helle: I think the list looks a little like a...not sure these headings are in the right place.

Shawn: Will bring revision suggestions back to the group. Wanted the group to know we would be looking at this and ask you to review it and send suggestions in if they occur to you.

Wayne: I was thinking of how nice expandable lists are for those of us who use large print. Next time, we need to float the columns.

<shawn> Policies Relating to Web Accessibility

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/

Shawn: Also wanted to mention the list of policies, it's been our our to-do for update for a while. Basically we need to revisit the overall approach.
... do we want to keep the same format? Will ask people to research specific countries or regions and provide that information as an update.

Helle: Are you going to ask us to supply information from our country? I have done it in the past and nothing was done with it.

Shawn: I won't ask for it until we are ready to do something with it.

Andrew: Are we changing the overall structure?

Shawn: Want to keep it within scale so that we get it done, but also want to consider whether we need to change the format.

Helle: We have differences from one country to another, since some do not have legislation. If we present within the US template, all countries will not fulfill in the same way.

Shawn: Yes, as I recall we had "Legislation" as a topic and it was empty in some case. So yes we will look at the effectiveness of that and how to better communicate different scenarios.

Helle: It will be useful to re-think what kind of information and documentation we will want for each country or region.

Shawn: Additional thoughts on that?
... then another thing, a couple of business case studies that will be brought to the group for consideration and discussion.
... and I would like to hear your comments on general priorities.

Helle: I wanted to use "How People with Disabilities..." why haven't we completely finished it?

Shawn: My fault, it has been on my to-do list for review. Just got it to Shadi.
... we do have a draft in the navigation, but the updated, announced version is not yet there.
... getting close.
... any other suggestions, ideas about upcoming work?
... Then please be thinking about these new things that we haven't considered in a while. Would like to close some of the smaller items and focus on big issues like the policies and ATAG outreach.

Wayne: What about updating Essential Components with WAI-Aria?

Shawn: What's the priority on that?

<shawn> Essential Components of Web Accessibility <http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/components.php>

Wayne: I think there is not too much to do.

Shawn: Yes, we could possibly go in and add a couple of sentences. But it was made in 2005 and if we go into it, we may decide it needs wholesale revision.
... so far had decided it was not a priority. So can we just add those couple of sentences?

Wayne: Just letting it sit is OK, I guess. It is a good document as it is.

Sharron: Why not add the two sentences?

Shawn: Perhaps we should. I have heard that some people assume that WAI-ARIA is an update to WCAG and that is a myth that should not be promulgated.

Wayne: So if we keep ourselves limited to those two sentences, it should be great. Only discuss the WAI-ARIA addition.

Helle: Can staff do that so it is not brought in for discussion? Because we know what happens once it is opened up?

Shawn: It is number 3 on existing deliverables to be revised or expanded.
... other comments?

Shadi: WCAG 101 or Basics is on the list of deliverables. You and I talked about the fact that the resources still need to be identified. Do we need to draw it our more?

Shawn: In what way?

Shadi: Maybe discuss in upcoming EO meeting, how to relate to Quick Tips and other pieces and consider the priority for where it goes in list of upcoming work. I am asked for it quite a bit.

Sharron: How are you asked for it?

Shadi: People say "WCAG2 is too complex," people don't understand how to use it. Basically making all of the resources easier to understand to the mom and pop shops.
... reduce steepness of learning curve in the beginning.
... application notes are something fairly different.

Shawn: I agree, and will see about changing the grouping.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/eval-tf

<AndrewA> WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force - WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force

Shadi: Evaluation Methodology Task Force is meeting and that work will eventually make its way to EO.

<AndrewA> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/eval-tf

Helle: How does the work of the Task Force relate to what we have already done and how does it relate to the European group's work?

Shadi: It relates by drawing it out a bit more, UWEM (unified methodology) but is more specific in steps. And it seeks to discover what other methodologies are being used and will work to develop methodology that is truly aligned to WCAG2. Example is "accessibility support."

Andrew: Is the Task Force underway and working or still in the planning phase?

Shadi: Recently moved out of planning and are scheduling meeting times. Eight participants are signed up and a few in the pipeline. Hope to meet soon.
... would love to have more from down under if we can make the times work.

Shawn: If there is no additional comment, we should adjourn and use the extra time to review Business Case slides.

Helle: If I stay at TPAC to do additional work at the F2F, will I have to pay the fees?

Shawn: Since we will not be formally meeting, may not have to pay fees but then may not also be able to attend other sessions and fully participate in all activities.
... we are adjourned, please look for good quotes and review the Biz case slides.

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/07/25 12:46:04 $