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<trackbot> Date: 29 June 2011
<scribe> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<scribe> Scribe: Janina_Sajka
<scribe> agenda: this
<scribe> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<scribe> Chair: John_Foliot
<scribe> Scribe: Janina_Sajka
<scribe> agenda: this
scribenic: janina
<Sean> +44.154.558.aaaa is Sean
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Navigation
sp: Suggestions for attaining
DAISY type navigation in HTML 5 media ...
... driven by external text tracks
... Have not thought through all the issues on the AT side, but
believe what we have is sufficient for support
js: So, if we have media resource and two alternatives, audio based video description pluse a sign translation video, we need to create a text track to get navigation?
sp: yes
<JF> <ul>
<JF> <li><? target='timestamp' data='00:00:47.600'>Impact of Captions on the Web</li>
<JF> <li><? target='timestamp' data='00:01:50.100'>Requirements of a Video text format</li>
<JF> <li><? Target='timestamp' data='00:02:30.000'>The Web VTT Format
<JF> <ul>
<JF> <li><? target='timestamp'
<JF> data='00:03:33.000'>Simple WebVTT file</li>
<JF> <li><? target='timestamp'
js: do we need a new label for that otherwise empty text?
<JF> data='00:04:57.766'>Styled WebVTT file</li>
<JF> <li><? target='timestamp'
<JF> data='00:06:16.666'>Internationalized WebVTT file</li>
<JF> </ul>
sp: No, it's called "Chapter."
<JF> </li>
<JF> </ul>"
sp: JF's question ml looks correct ...
jf: like fly-out menus
... what about two text tracks with different levels ...
sp: believe same ml will work for
ttml as i've shown with webvtt
... We've both vtt and ttml in the wiki page--both can
map
... Sean, were you able to look at the wiki on navigation?
sh: looked at ttml, looks workable
jf: just concerned that our ml is acceptable both for vtt and ttml authoring
sh: It comes down to conventions, so yes. This is a perfectly valid way of doing it.
fo: are we defining a new collection of objects? are we overloading queues? How do we think of handling this from js?
sp: Only thing I've introduced a
nest element, start and end, for grouping
... It only displays as the time is reached on the timeline
fo: So, this is a new concept. So, today, you can load queue from external file, or querry. How does chapter concept fit in?
sp: I'm not introducing anything new.
fo: How do I skip from one chapter to the next?
sp: I haven't addressed that side in this wiki
fo: I think you misunderstand my
question
... You can load from file queus, manipulate with js ---
sp: Is the same
... All I do is used a text track that's associated with video
as "Chapter" kind, and provide a queue ist.
... I'm showing it's contents
<silvia> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcue
sp: I picked this object and filled in all the attributes
sh: so the chapter points are distributed throughout ...
sp: top levels are separate queues
sh: sublevels are all
separate
... doesn't seem elegant
sp: it's what DAISY does
<silvia> http://www.html5videoguide.net/demos/google_io/3_navigation/
sp: DAISY has one structure, this is two
jf: sounds like chapter notion is abandoned, these are just specific time queues
sp: yes, because original "chapter" concept was DVD based, and this is independent of that. This is a different semantec notion.
sh: Not sure chapter was defined to be equivalent to DVD markers?
<silvia> "Chapter titles, intended to be used for navigating the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#media-resource. Displayed as an interactive list in the user agent's interface."
<silvia> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#the-track-element <- scroll to the list
jf: So "chapter" was a poor term
to choose.
... Perhaps we should suggest a different term.
sp: will always be someone who misunderstands, no matter what we call it
sh: there's no implication that chapters can't be nested
jf: just as with <li>, there was an implicit </li> when the next<li> was presented?
sh: but there could be another chapter inside, at a internal nesting level
sp: I think the nesting is more
obvious the way I have it
... It's true that we could organize this differently.
<silvia> "<? target='timestamp' data='00:00:47.600'>"
js: Bottom line here, we need
nothing new from HTML spec to do hierarchical navigation? Am I
wrong?
... We were working on a July 1 deadline
<Sean> <li><? target='timestamp' data='00:00:47.600'>Impact of Captions on the Web</li>
sh: My question is how this is to be exposed into html
<silvia> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html#webvtt-timestamp-object
sp: through xml processing instructions
fo: would be very very good if we can keep our existing queue structure the same. It would be unfortunate if we need to change that.
sp: There's no change
fo: Think we have to do something
to expose chapter info
... We need some discussion on how to do chapter navigation
programaticallysp: I can show the same working with DAISY or
TTML, inside queues. It can end up in the same ml
sp: Only objection I hear that is
a problem is that the drilling in navigation is inside
queues
... reason is that representing it on a timeline would be hard,
and I think we don't need that
sh: Didn't et to my point,
there's a ? inside the nesting, not sure what that is in the
html
... Not sure what that is
sp: It's an xml processing
instruction that already exists in html
... Now looking for a link pointer
sh: I understand it in vtt, but not in html
<silvia> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html#webvtt-cue-text-dom-construction-rules
sp: I'm mapping the nest item into an ordered list
jf: Want to focus on any cp we need to deliver by friday?
janina: also wanted to say that,
but also ...
... showing hierarchical nav points may not work on a timeline,
but it can work visually very well, perhaps in a system map
kind of display
jf: Yes, and nested lists is a
familiar concept for web authors.
... Would this xml be the cp?
sh: Would be a very interesting proposal as other xml has been frowned on in html
sp: Only proposal here is related
to webvtt, so from that point of view we don't need a cp
... I could show how DAISY could be mapped in, and also
ttml.
sh: When you have the get queue as html can you remove the xml?
sp: it is html
sh: no
... xml processing is suggested to be ignored by dev html
<silvia> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
<silvia> ProcessingInstruction
sh: I see no need because of this, nothing is different
sp: it's all part of the dom,
text, event, etc
... Perhaps an example into the spec of how the hierarchical ml
would work, an informative section
jf: If we get this xml processing piece to a point where there's agreement, are you otherwise comfortable with this?
jb: Best that we keep this, so
putting a proposal means there will be a call for counter
proposals, and from that we can work toward the best
approach.
... How much to get this done?
sp: It's due Friday
... I suggest I forward this myself, as a cp, since we don't
have agreement in the group. That would take a couple
hours.
jf: People were saying it would be good to have examples in addition to vtt
sp: Yes, will do.
jf: I think aria-described won't
work, fundamentally, unfortunately.
... It's because it's off page so can't focus and links and ml
would be lost, because they're outside of the viewport
... it's all about tab focus
<silvia> aria-describedby is not off-page
jf: then we don't meet the design
leonie: every designer will hate it
sp: for that we've ...
[[missed]
... it's inside the video element, so it's fallback, not
visually presented, but in the dom
jf: can't have it in the dom and not available to sighted users
<JF> <video>
<JF> <p id="posterdescription">This <a href=""></a>link</a> is a tab-focus item</p>
<JF> </video>
<judy> [Judy sends regrets for next week; will be away]
jf: Silvia will submit a cp on nav, we'll keep discussing it and other approaches. And, we'll keep working on poster.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/sp/jf/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: janina Found Scribe: Janina_Sajka Found Scribe: Janina_Sajka WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Frank_Oliver John_Foliot Judy LJW MichaelC Microsoft Sean Sean_Hays aaaa davidb fo frankolivier inserted jallan janina jb jf js leonie scribenic sh silvia sp tm trackbot You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Found Date: 29 Jun 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]