EOWG 04 Feb 2011


  1. Business Case slides - detailed review and initial approval (hopefully this will be the last discussion prior to finalization)
  2. WCAG 2.0 at a Glance - consider revisions in "Notes for consideration" column in the Comparison Table in the Requirements/Analysis...
  3. EOWG participant and editor recruiting
  4. EOWG face-to-face meetings in 2011


Liam, Sandy, Ian


<scribe> scribe: Sharron

Business Case slides

Shawn: Look at the slides in 3 different formats, Powerpoint format is probably the best one to work from. Can everyone get to them?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/bcase/

<sylvie> yes i am muted

<helle> unpacking files

Shawn: Hoping it will be ready for copyediting soon.

Helle: OK, it is unpacked, looking at it.

Sharron: Length is good, not too long

Shawn: Haven't timed it yet

Jennifer: We may want to put in the instructions how long it will take to present.

Shawn: I am planning to do a recording of it, so we can note how long the recording is.
... Let's go through slide by slide.
... Instructions, comments?
... the title slide?

<sylvie> question on slide 2

Shawn: Intro, if you could...?

Sharron: I LOVE this slide.

Shawn: Thanks Liam.
... slide 4? thought perhspa we should quote someone other than oursleves?
... my hope is that it will mostly be used by others, so that it would refer back to WAI.

Helle: Looks good to me. I thought it was an actual quote and it seems good.

Shawn: It's a quote from something I wrote in 2002.

Sharron: Looking at the notes?

Shawn: Yes, almost a transcript. Notes to presenters say how to customize, but the main content is what people will say.
... how do we feel about ethnic / geographic diversity of these images? I havelooked through list of famous people with disabilities who would be somewhat recognized.
... Do we choose less broadly famous people in exchange for more diversity?

Sharron: Are you saying we provide alternatives or that we suggest that presenters make those changes?

Shawn: The question is this: Do we say we will go with this becasue these are recognizable people -OR- Do we say we will go for less famous, but more divcers images?

Shadi: There is a list that they can choose from that can be linked to?

Shawn: Yes we can link to it.

Shadi: How effective will the alternatives be?
... doesn't "famous" depend on what part of the world? Is Stevei Wonder more or less famous than a Bollywood star in parts of the world?
... I think we should look closely at this because of our ouwn bias. Even historical figures. I understand that is more difficult, but at this time, it is very US-centric.

Shawn: We want to include people who regularly use the computer.

Shadi: Disagree with the comment. Whether they use a computer is irrelevant.

<shawn> Sharron: because this is the business cae, we're staying you don't want to leave these people out of your market, so we want to list people who would be a target audience, not someone who is long dead.

<shawn> ... if diff context, maybe could tlak, eg., what Helen Keller could have done. but since this is business case, then current people.

Helle: If the pictures are changable and we provide alternatives, then it should be up to the user of the slide set and they know someone that they want to include.
... although the list may be hard to use.

<scribe> ACTION: Sharron Look for broadly recognized people with disabilities from diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Helle: If you give me the links you were talking about, I can try.

<shawn> list of famous people with disabilities http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_0060.shtml

Shadi: How important is it that they are famous as opposed to active people with disabilities that you talk about their story?

Shawn: For the generic one that we do it may be that we use famous people, but for the customizable one, people can use local or community people.

Jennifer: I'm sitting here thinking about the UN, the World Bank, they must have stories and photos about the convention. Don't you think people must take some rsponsibility for their own presentation. What makes people LOOK disabled?

Shadi: That's a good point. But the geographic discussion must be had.

Jennifer: Yes, but it's really hard.
... and I do wonder about the UN and World Bank and whether they have stock photos or something.

Shawn: Since we want to keep that short, we could suggest it as an approach rather than the famous people approach. And severl of these, I did not even know that they had disabilities.

Jennifer: Choose recognizable people in your country, their famousness helps the story by itself. I don't think we can do that for the presenters. Maybe just let them know that you need to localize it and give them some responsibility.

Shawn: I would like to change at least one of them and give good suggestions for localization.
... slide 6? Similar question, it is a US study. Do you ahve a feel for if there are similar numbers elsewhere?
... Would it be hard to find a study like this for other parts of the world?

<shawn> G3ICT

Shadi: Yes, this is one of the few studies like this, but is widely applicable. We should make a note that this is US based but that other global orgs have seen similiar like G3ICT

<scribe> ACTION: Shadi will find a study example, if possible [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html#action02]

<shadi> ACTION: Shadi to find listing of surveys on benefits of accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shawn: slide 7

Shadi: Why is Steve Jobs there?

Shawn: recognizable. He is an older user, this slide is an older user that someone would identigy as cutting edge, innovative guy, but hey he's 55

Shadi: The iPhone is prominent, maybe can build in the mobile reference or something.
... and by the way, he using a mobile phone and these font sizing techniques are useful there as well.

Shawn: Should we expand William's story?

Shadi: Yes, but remember that "geek" is one of those hard to translate terms and expanding Wm's story leads to an expansion of Steve Job's story too

Shawn: slide 8?

Sylvie: slide 9, there is something about Excel in the slide - what is it?

Shawn: There is a table and the explanation is in the notes. Should it be clarified that it may show up as an Excel file for screenreaders?

Shadi: "These" users or "more" users?

Shawn: Some of the references depend on flow.

Shadi: Love slide 10

Shawn: Yes, will make sure we have the right permissions

Jennifer: You may be able to search for permissions

Shadi: On slide 11 maybe some examples to illustrate. Depending on time.

Shawn: what other examples besides alt text. Can put a note to say if you ahve enough time, may want to add examples.
... slides 11, 12,13...

Shadi: wish that could be a different example
... other than alt text, because it is so common.
... I am not sure that a cell phone is a good way to clarify that. People do load images in phones now

Shawn: we could add to "perhaps you..." that "many people around the world still do."
... I know many people say we need to move beyond alt text, but it is still one of the most powerful examples

Helle: On slide 14, I was at first somewhat confused. This is not a screen reader, it is a Braille display. why talk about dyslexia while dispalying a Braille device?

Shadi: I agree with Helle there needs to be no reference to screenreader while showing this.

Shawn: What if we show a screenreader first?

Sylvie: People who are blind and deaf use a screenreader? It is a confusing reference.

Shawn: Could say "Deaf-Blind" or could say people who are blind and also deaf

Shadi: Maybe them using a logo as an alt-text example is not the example we need. How about a purchase button?

Sharron: I like that.

Shadi: The logo - who cares if people see it?

Jennifer: and search buttons are often not labeld
... People who use voice input? How can you show that?

Shawn: I am not sure it is worth expanding this for? I put it as an option, but not sure we need to expand .

Shadi: But showing someone with headphones and including notes, people can relate to voice input for their own use. Would be cool to remote control mu computer.

Shawn: Let's look at next slide, 15 alternative text benefits

Jennifer: Deborah Kaplan is active on WebAIM list may have phots for that.

Shawn: slide 16, slide 17, slide 18

Shadi: Several things, it depends on the tool, not easy for people to look at code, scalability, translation, so it can be a significant cost factor.
... can't really say it is free. Matt May's "Myths of Accessibility"

Shawn: reads an alternative that includes some of the difficulty

Helle: I think I agree with Shadi about the cost, we should be cautious about promoting that it doesn't cost anything.

Shawn: We don't overall

Sharron: I agree. We should be upfront about the investment, costs and education needed for good accessibility, including alt text

Shadi: One point to be made - focusing on the return on investment

Shawn: so how should we frame it? Do we want to talk about cost at all? We have talked about the benefits? How do we talk about costs?

<shawn> sharron: ... once it's folded into your development tools and practice, then minimized...

Helle: If we could say that if it is put into the process from the beginning costs are minimized and remediation is not needed

Shadi: You may already be doing some of these
... it depends on where you start

Sharron: If you are following best practices, you amy already be doing some of that

<shawn> sharron: MAYBE YOU�RE ALREADY doing some of these things! Especially if you�re already doing usability. Or if you have good coders that are already following best practices for code markup. :-)

Shadi: the business people listening will assume they are already doing the current thing

Jennifer: I know it is a pain, but it is needed

Shawn: Absolutely!
... we may want to point to how to minimize costs in Biz Case pages

Shadi: On slide 20, only a few aspects require ongoing costs. Maintainence is an ongoing cost and not insignificant.

Shawn: OK, moving on transcripts for audio, slide 20, 21, 22, 23

Sharron: procurement could be a session of its own

Jennifer: especially once the DoJ acts on the ADA

Shawn: Yes there are many addiitonal documents we could develop in support
... but on this slide - are these the top tips, should we add anything?

Shadi: The list is great, maybe add to the procurement sentence a link to our policy documents

Shawn: slide 25, slide 26, slide 27 and 28 is just for presenters and does not show up in most situations. How are we doing in the big picture? Fairly significnat revision to socts, small tasks around the pictures, maybe change or add to alt as examples. Anything else as we look back?

Shadi: Good work, great timing both in the US and Europe. Important, thanks!

Jennifer: Agree about the timing. People are desperate for that kind of evidence, good work

Shawn: I received some comments from lurkers on the EOWG list. Sandi thinks it is not written from a marketing standpoint and she is willing to take it on as a project, but would start from scratch. What does the group think about the timing?

Jennifer: Timing is critical, we need to get this out now. Maybe Sandi's could be an alternative version. Doesn't it make sense to have the marketing version as an alternative?

Sharron: I really like that idea. Market speak does not appeal to everyone. There are technical audiences and marketing audiences who may have na interest in this topic.

Jennifer: Let's get this one doen and be open to Sandi doing an alternate version.

Shawn: We also really need help on other projects as well

WCAG at a Glance

Shawn: WCAG at a Glance, please please please look at it, think about it, comment on it, would be great to finalize for next week's call.

Participant Recruiting

<shawn> We are specifically looking for web accessibility advocates, developers, trainers, educators, evaluators, researchers, and editors to help EOWG with:

<shawn> * copyediting

<shawn> * drafting documents and incorporating group feedback, as a lead editor

<shawn> * user interface / user interaction design

<shawn> * CSS, javascript, and other development

<shawn> * wiki editing

<shawn> * print design

<shawn> * testing with assistive technologies and adaptive strategies

Shawn: We have lost a few folks, need to recruit, keep the requirements in mind as we look for others

<shawn> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2010OctDec/0002.html

Shawn: If you are thinking of someone, please check in with me

Sharron: what kind of geographic diversity are we looking for?

Shawn: We need diversity for review. less vital that we have diversity for editing, backend programming, etc. But for review that is critical
... feel like we get public review so we are doing better on getting wide review

Face to face in 2011

Shawn: Informal meetups at SXSW or CSUN
... We had mentioned meeting in Spain in May. The week of the 16th of May is the W3C meeting, so we would meet before or after.
... and perhaps London the next week. I'll do a check-in.
... TPAC is in Santa Clara Oct 31 - Nov 4

Jennifer: Wish Sharron good luck with the AIR-Interactive. The idea of a marketing approach, I wonder if we want to make someway of tracking who is using these slides and see how they have changed, modified and used our materials and create feedback that would help us shape our own presentations.
... feedback from?

Shawn: If we are comfortable listing the presentations that were based on this with a disclaimer that it has not been vetted. if their name or link on our site, they may be more likely to tell us they have used it.

Sharron: Or could have the community rate them

Jennifer: promotes community interaction

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to mention that we also need images that are Creative Commons or have similar permission to use

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Shadi to find listing of surveys on benefits of accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Shadi will find a study example, if possible [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Sharron Look for broadly recognized people with disabilities from diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2011/10/03 15:35:54 $

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Found Scribe: Sharron
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WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Shadi Sharron Sylvie aaaa helle jennifer shawn
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Regrets: Liam Sandy Ian

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

Got date from IRC log name: 04 Feb 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/02/04-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: shadi sharron

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