See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 29 November 2010
<richardschwerdtfe> meeting: W3C Canvas Accessibility subteam
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> scribenick: oedipus
CP: can fake some things - hitting certain checkbox would cause to do a select range -- more of a unit test
GJR: yes, add things incrementally
CP: test of API without having to
know where to paint things
... ways we can start from ground and test it out
RS: need UA vendors to make change or create java applet to move caret
CP: like i did for focusable, can
do for demo purposes --- need to compare cross-browsers
... for IE9, can make demo that doesn't need to have rich text
editing ability but demo it will work -- draw caret in x y
position -- just draw caret at appropriate blink rate and
place
... hooking up to mouse right now not issue for testing
purposes
CP: filed sub-tree with WebKit -- will try and push with Chrome
RS: defect logged against FF, but probably won't make for FF4
GJR: DBolter told me FF4 API frozen
HTML Canvas Element: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/att-0050/HTML_Canvas_Element.html
CP: stuck in sentence -- none of elements in shadow DOM should be initializaed on OnPageLoad -- if IFRAME has src won't be loaded at window load -- need review by FO
RS: that would go under which defect?
CP: knowing which elements are to
be supported
... don't be initialized if don't need be rather than list of
elements
plus 1 to CP don't be initialized
HTML Canvas 2D Context: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/att-0050/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
CP: primary change had caret xy position based on text directionality
RS: don't have problem with coordinate -- if selecting text and going to right, it is last position
CP: understand --don't know if needs to be defined -- anyone programming will notice cursor placement problems
RS: want to ensure that on a Mac, don't have caret tracking while doing selection -- had when selecting text going in certain direction, so is last thing selected
CP: gotcha
RS: if going to the left, last on left, if going to right...
CP: when text selected, not caret
RS: right
CP: that is where caret is drawn
so needs to be accessible
... kinda covered by note saying last drawn position must be
tracked
... understand what RS intended now -- thought was related to
single char
RS: last char that got selected
CP: exactly
RS: take another pass at
it?
... trying to get legal to look at code
CP: will take another tweak -- if have any other feedback let me know
RS: pixel coordinates x and y pixel API
CP: didn't want accessible to
untrusted environment
... when installed as extention
RS: how do you mean?
CP: trusted extention -- plug-in
-- put under security issue, though not
... trusted script usually because of security or very
proprietary
... not available to normal web scripting environment -- didn't
want people to tinker with zoom -- not tinkering, but being
aware things are bigger -- diddn't want because said
programmers wouldn't use correctly
RS: in IE
CP: don't care -- not going to move on it without mozilla support
RS: if author wants to change view of canvas, what is problem?
CP: someone will misinterpret
screen metrics to implement own zoom effects -- use CSS zoom
rather than onClick zoom -- based on idea, not going to give
web devs one more thing to do wrong -- countered that good
documentation would counter that; is a11y issue that affects
people now, and have a proposal, but dead end -- is trying to
use CSS media queries, but don't know if can get
single...
... value from media queries
RS: email?
CP: on what wg list
RS: will talk with david bolter
CP: will send out summaries to try and get more than 1 person's attention on it
davidb, can you help push moziilla on bug 11328?
RS: if documented in HTML5 spec, that would be right answer
RS: i'm working to get approval
on that
... need FrankO for HTML elements that are allowable
... CP does your change address that?
<davidb> oedipus, what bug database?
davidb, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11328
CP: better approach is to keep src from initializing, not to have list of elements
RS: need to get cross-UA support
RS: trying to get ok from
attorneys to work on this
... have to write API addition for grammar and spell checking
to get ranges
CP: brought that up in WHAT WG -- got response from most UA vendors -- trying to push to get something out of them, but no spell checking a11y from DOM on basis of privacy concerns
RS: that is fallacious
CP: contenteditable -- addressed
on own grounds -- trying to find middle ground -- not going to
allow full API in untrusted scope -- if added password to list
of suggested spellings, that password might be exposed via
brute force, so any addition to dictionary is private
... raised "getSpellingRange" -- replied that going to expose
user's language and their OS -- replied already have that
exposed
RS: can get ranges for selectoin
CP: worried if have system dictionary and says something is misspelled, can tell what lang dictionary user is using -- exposing what natural language user preferes
RS: just asking for where spelling is
CP: for example color versus
colour
... can we at least get range?
... even with range, they said security issue
... CSS proposal for highlighting -- without ranges, can only
highlight -- can't make bigger because don't know range
... why not open to discussion so don't have separate APIs or
use system prompt and make that a function, but so far, been
met with negativity -- trying to make problem as small as
possible
RS: need to make proposal for it, submit it, and say "this is what we need for someone with low vision to operate a canvas RTE for spelling and grammar errors" and let them say "can't be done" if that is their opinioin
CP: contenteditable is the
key
... spelling a defect in contenteditable, not in each UA
GJR notes still needs to route mouse cursor to speech cursor to get right-click dictionary entries in FF
RS: where is this defined?
CP: MSDN has APIs
RS: HTML5 APIs for getSelection
CP: think is under ranges
... API for text field selections
... single textarea API
RS: link?
<Downchuck> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Traversal-Range/ranges.html
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#textFieldSelection
RS: need to add for grammar
... use ranges for grammar
CP: makes sense
RS: getSpellingRanges and getGrammarRanges
RS: will write change proposal for that section
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#webappapis
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#contenteditable
CP: leave off to UA and DOM
RS: need one for selection, as well
CP: "UA should offer way to move
images..."
... about non-editable elements inside hosts -- drag'n'drop
images
... trying to keep contenteditable entirely within UA -- will
send summary of proposals to RS to work with
RS: in contenteditable says up to UA to get selection?
CP: basically
RS: should or must?
CP: not uppercase must, but prose must
RS: we can just add text to do selection and query for ranges of grammatical and spelling errors
CP: using GetRanges or getSelection -- easier to do on a given element -- either would work -- from HTML5 viewpoint, that is all UA side and not exposed to scripting environment
RS: should be allowed ability to get selection?
CP: could make a selection, don't
talk about getting a selection -- can make selection with
KeyDown events -- completely undefined save for drag and
drop
... input method editor with spelling, grammar, etc. entirely
up to UA and should not be scripted seems to be the spec's
leaning
RS: work on change for that
... could provide annotation/non-visible attribute
(grammarerror tag) for elements that say this is beginning of
grammatical range
CP: a tag is technically
semantic...
... what about spelling or grammar tag so is marked up is
reasonable to have in HTML5 spec
RS: that way, author of page can mark spelling or grammatical error -- write own grammar or spelling checker for canvas
CP: applications -- canvas is a
method
... would allow author to convey spelling mistake in text and
would look/render same as other spelling mistakes
RS: like to run this by frankO -- don't expose what is inside contenteditable section, then allow author to annotate in markup beginning of a grammatical error section, go through DOM to mark -- could then style it and do all sorts of stuff
CP: absolutely
davidb, thank you
RS: propose a few new tags until
more malleable on contentditable
... will ask FO what route to travel: work on contenteditable
or introduce spelling and grammar tags
CP: could do in ARIA -- aria-spellingerror
RS: put on list for ARIA.next
CP: spelling tag a good idea -- it is just a tag -- whatever styling one is using, use on this span
<scribe> meeting: HTML Accessibility TF Canvas Sub-Team
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/TOPIC 3: Mozilla's refusal/TOPIC: Mozilla's refusal/ Succeeded: s/TOPIC 4: Implementation of Canvas 2D API context changes for non Rich Text Editing scenarios/TOPIC: Implementation of Canvas 2D API context changes for non Rich Text Editing scenarios/ Succeeded: s/TOPIC 6: Steps to assess what HTML elements are allowable in the shadow DOM/TOPIC: Steps to assess what HTML elements are allowable in the shadow DOM/ Succeeded: s/TOPIC 8: What are the next steps to address Rich Text Editing in HTML 5?/TOPIC: What are the next steps to address Rich Text Editing in HTML 5?/ Succeeded: s/[adjourn]// Succeeded: s/JAWS should recognize the checkbox// Succeeded: s/it does -- it reports the checkbox's label, the form control and form control state// Succeeded: s/you should not need a form around it for that to work// Succeeded: s/If it does need this they have a bug// Succeeded: s/no, not a FORM element, but a role="form" for the checkboxes// Succeeded: s/that makes no sense// Succeeded: s/TOPIC 1: Review Charles' change to <canvas> in HTML 5/TOPIC: Review Charles' change to <canvas> in HTML 5/ Succeeded: s/TOPIC 2: Review of Charles updated draft change proposal to Canvas 2D API/TOPIC: Review of Charles updated draft change proposal to Canvas 2D API/ Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, Charles_Pritchard Present: Gregory_Rosmaita Rich Charles_Pritchard Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/0050.html Found Date: 29 Nov 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]