See also: IRC log
<JF> the call is restricted at this time?
Hi, Everyone: REMINDER Zakim Code today is 26631#
<JF> aha
John, use today';s zakim code
<scribe> scribe: janina
<scribe> agenda: this
If she can last, Janina will attempt to do the honors today ...
<Sean> conference code?
<Sean> the code is not letting me in. says restricted at this time
Sean, you need to use 26631#
It's our special zakim code for today only -- 26631#
<JF> zakim who is here
<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/67
re action 67 on to file bugs we will close action 67
<silvia> close action-67
<trackbot> ACTION-67 And Silvia (and perhaps Eric) to file bugs to tweak language in Editors draft closed
re action 68 on jf --
<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/68
leave open
re action 69 on silvia -
<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/69
<scribe> done
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/TextFormat_Mapping_to_Requirements
<silvia> close action-69
<trackbot> ACTION-69 Work up checklist table for WebSRT closed
<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/76
<silvia> close action-76
<trackbot> ACTION-76 Replace the technology column in our matrix with Frank's categorizations closed
leave action-76 open for now
OK, we'll close it!
<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/88
Biggest issue is how to get data from client to server
Silvia is part of the Wg
This action was cloned from PF which was interested in general.
PF cloned it because it seemed particularly appropriate to Media in HTML
We'll leave it open for now.
This is Sean's web slide presentation ...
Designed to support multiple formats, smil compatible
Can construct own profile in xml
Supports custom timing
Requires a default lang, but inline lang also supported
Can define custom profile, or use one of the provided standard profiles
Hierarchy: div, p, span ...
Netflicks captioning in DFXP
It's one level -- cannot div inside a div
Style defining authoring intent
Allows grouping of inline styles, so that locating captions doesn't become overly verbose
If wanted css, would apply over that
CSS styling would work--it's just external to TTML itself
User styling overide would use an external style sheet
JF: Could we create a profile that disallowed internal ttml styling?
Sean: Yes, will address shortly
Style can reference a previous style block
zakim drop me
Would a browser that implements ttml need to implement ttml styling, or at least a mapping to css
Most maps to css2, some only to css3
Silvia: So mapping is required?
Sean: Yes, will discuss shortly
<JF> JF wonders about browser extensions (common in emergent CSS3)
TTML pub date is tomorrow -- Thursday, 18 November
BBC is using for English and Welsh captions
Several iptv players, some ed sites, and free conversion tools supporting ttml
Geoff: NCAM has player -- Adobe flash uses ttml
Silvia: How much content uses more than just basic ml?
Sean: several authoring tools that are quite complete
... From what appears on line, more than the basics
jf: the jw player also supports ttml profile
Silvia: which?
jf: same as adobe?
Silvia: which does adobe support?
jf: xml like
<silvia> basic profile
Sean: Next slide, Moby Dick slide, added DC metadata, and showing structured nav points
... Shows a straight forward extension of ttml, not implemented anywhere yet
... Pretty straight forward mapping for IE9 and Firefox, a bit more problematic for Safari
<silvia> Sean: http://www.mirovideoconverter.com/ <- ogg encoder
jf: could one create a block for caption text that enlarged text?
Sean: Yes, mapping at each time segment
Kenny, we're at zakim code 26631 today only
<kenny_j> thanks janina. will join in a sec
<JF> http://www.3playmedia.com/
Discussion on locating caption text -- over video or alongside?
Sean: My ttml profile supports anywhere
Geoff: There are other applications of TTML in the works, and I believe it's use is much wider than Sean showed.
... Uptick because it's a W3C recommendation (tomorrow)
Silvia now presenting on WebSRT
<silvia> http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide1
<Sean> can someone remind me of the code
<JF> 26631
SRT was attractive to me because it's so trivial to parse.
Mozilla's current official position is that ttml not compatible with how Mozilla wants to handle captions
I want to leave that aside, though, and look at this from our requirements perspective
WebSRT has been developed specifically for html5, expanding on SRT
Intent is that people can post their SRT files on the web, and they'll just work ...
Silvia's explaining ml in slide 3
<JF> plh: http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide3
Looking at slide 4 -- WebSRT for captions, texted video descriptions, subtitles, and kareoke
PLH: We're on zakim 26631, if you want to join
Minimal ml available for text, by intent
<plh> janina, I'm on the bridge
Great, PLH.
Slide 6 -- Showing how it comes together
Chapters there for navigation, using identifier plus start/end time
jf: asking about hierarchical navigation?
Silvia: WebSRT is still flexible, we can still fix shortcomings, don't know how open Ian is to that, though
... Hierarchical nav now only possible if we use multiple files--other workarounds
Geoff: Assuming these slides show what Ian has defined for WebSRT as of now, correct?
Silvia: Yes.
... Supports a voice ml, so can identify speaker, or a segment of music, etc
... All chars are utf8, unlike previous SRT wich code use any encoding
... Looking at use cases, video description,
... word by word timing ...
<JF> Link for Judy: http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide10
Silvia: metadata example -- html parsable
<JF> http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide10
Silvia: Jason ml would also be supported
... Jason is for archiving databases, appreciated by large sites with many many files
... Slide 12 shows ml that's currently allowed by WebSRT
... Slide 13 showing Japanese
... Showing positioning at right or left, as Asian languages are vertica
... Currently only renders text on top of video
Sean: Why not use CSS?
Silvia: Don't know. Also have this concern.
... I've heard Ian considered CSS too complex for this application
... Slide 14 showing only available markers -- vert, horizontal, etc
... Slide 15 -- If captioning audio, needs to be wrapped in video element, as video renders to screen, and audio does not
PLH, Yes, he said he would be doing that
Silvia: Next slides showing more complex rendering via css
... Summary; Lots of potential with metadata; things missing; very capable format, though
... Personal opinion is either works for me
... Mozilla and others strong aversion to xml parsing
... So prefer WebSRT for that, and other reasons
Geoff: Interested in the arguments
Silvia: Would tend to suggest all of css could be used
... sibling ml wouldn't work in live captioning, or in file where interleaved with video stream
<kenny_j> need to drop off now. Got to run to another meeting. Bye all.
Sean: So can't break into the middle of a file?
Silvia: Yes, but must first pass headers
Judy: Wonders whether subsetting ttml would provide what we need but avoid existing objections
Silvia: Objections are pretty generally against any xml format
Geoff: General comment -- Concerned that browser mfgs might be setting a11y policy in a way that isn't necessarily helpful to pwds
<JF> +1 to judy's comments
Judy: The bodies that set policy are empowered by our analysis -- starting from user requirements and continuing to what the formats do, and don't support
<Sean> my slides are at ftp://ftp.cwmwenallt.com/ username cwmdownload password Accessibility1
PHL: There's the tech discussion and the feature discussion -- Browsers may have prefs on tech direction, but features are another matter
Judy: but if we were to find some features not addressable in websrt, that would be another matter
phl: agrees
Judy: Didn't our TTML discussion reveal that we could avoid some of the less comfortable technologies that browser devs wanted to avoid?
PHL: I look at how do we move tech to meet our identified feature requirements
Judy: So, still wondering how far a subsetting could go?
Silvia: Don't think an xml format will be acceptable
... We can and should point out shortcomings and say that the format is unacceptable if these shortcomings aren't fixed
Sean: But, what's the point if we have a format that already delivers what's needed?
... If the devs have presented a fete accompli, what's the point?
PLH: Both formats could meet?
Sean: Yes, either format could meet
PHL: So, if we hand off to html, they'll probably go websrt
Sean: and we won't implement until it's a w3c req
Judy: Have we articulated interoperability concerns sufficiently?
jf: It's a problem if we say either format can do it,
... we really should focus on a definitive format
... I may be wrong, but believe we need a defined, preferred format
Sean: But we don't have all the dimensions of that
Silvia: This TF shouldn't be making the decision on what is baseline and what goes into the spec
... We can say format x is preferable because it supports these features
... Or format y has these shortcomings
... I believe it will be a useful exercise for this group to do that analyis
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to say has my thought back
Judy: If there were one format that objectively supported a11y better, it would be incumbant on this group to make that recommendation
... Don't see that the case is yet strongly stated
PHL: So, what is the timeline?
... It seems there are currently two different discussions, one in HTML WG and one in this TF
jf: That's what we've started doing here
Geoff: My comment also on the timeline -- Now that we know TTML is a rec, and is broadly used, perhaps people will start using it while we take our time, here and in the html wg, to debate
Judy: This is why we have the mega long call today
PHL: Not meaning to criticize -- but we may miss opportunity if we don't move fast
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/TextFormat_Mapping_to_Requirements
Now going through the format reqs looking for what ttml and srt currently support
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist
dv-14 ttml=yes websrt=no
Silvia: We may rely on media nnotations for copyright -- dv-=14
cn-2 ttml=yes websrt=no--not hierarchical
Silvia: Suggest doing entire cn section
Discussion that we should see examples of how it's done in ttml; suggesting maybe both need work
JS: Already solved in DAISY which is now sync'd to epub (IDPF)
Sean: Nested in ttml
... Am intending an example in ttml
<Sean> http://www.cwmwenallt.com/ttml/ttmldemo.htm
jf: how do we get an websrt example?
Silvia: I will do for WebSRT
<Sean> Only tested in IE9 and Firefox
js: We only need two implementations right?
<plh> Sean, does your page work for you right now?
<plh> it seems the server is borken. I don't even get html source code out of your link
jf: Two weeks? We'll not meet next week due to U.S. Thanksgiving holliday
Silvia: Three probably more realistic, but will try for two
Sean: Yes, have other priorities, but this one is also very important
cn-10 multiple simoultaneous text tracks -- ttml=yes websrt=?
<silvia> websrt=yes through multiple tracks
cc-2 both ok
cc-4 says char encoding, do we have lang attrib elsewhere?
cc -- where rendered?
websrt only in the viewport
A current shortcoming
ttml=yes
<silvia> cc-5 that is
cc-6 both ok
cc-7 both ok
cc-13 ttml=yes; websrt=needs info
Now believe both ok
cc-14 ttml=yes; websrt=css??
Silvia to clarify with example
cc-16/17 ttml=yes; websrt=no
<silvia> cc-15 tml=yes; websrt=yes
cc-18 ttml=yes, via namespace, -- frowned on
<silvia> websrt=yes
cc-27 more difficult in xml; but is being done
Silvia: has been raised as an issue
ecc-1 more complex in websrt
jf: important in educational settings, specifically dublin core
pp-2 ttml=yes; websrt=no
jf: seem two big differences--structural nav and text rendering; also metadata
<Sean> paper talking about XML encoding and streaming http://www.bayardo.org/ps/www04.pdf
<plh> time will be 5pm ET in two weeks
<silvia> have a great thanksgiving !
<silvia> I don't even know what thanksgiving is :P
<plh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving
<plh> and the day after thanksgiving : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_%28shopping%29
<silvia> I was teasing ;)