AA: EO reasonably happy with introductory section but AA and Shadi have made some changes
<Andrew> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/sites-older-users/Overview.html
AA: need to think about target audience
Shadi: to go section by section including title
suzette: how to distinguish diff docs esp this draft and WA&OP <http://www.w3.org/WAI/older-users/>
AA: this draft is more for Web developers
Shadi: difference are subtle -
but do we need repetition and avoid too much cross
referencing
... this one aimed at developers who have been requested to
develop website for older people
... the WA&OP is more general interest
Suzette: maybe we could have a more active opening to get developers to engage with the guidelines
<shadi> ACTION: consider "this document provides guidance for developers ..." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-waiage-minutes.html#action01]
AA: asks Kate
kate: agrees - developers just want to get on and do it
AA: moving on to next section
Kate: need to be more specific about disabilities
Shadi: agrees that physical decline is too broad a term
<AA> Andrew: consider mobility or dexterity instead of physical?
Suzette: do we need to
start with health issues? the impairments are often mild (as
per para 2) rather than disability
... I prefer not to
define ageing by medical condition
... might start by
"older people are very diverse"
Kate: agree somewhat
<shadi> ACTION: re-consider starting off the second sentence with the disability aspect (that sometimes has negative connotations) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-waiage-minutes.html#action02]
Kate: have to be realistic - just about life and not abnormal and avoid the negative element of disability
AA: because ageing is just
'normal' older people do not go looking for disability
aids
... need to get developers to understand what is different
without stigmatising it
Shadi: what about the third paragraph Studies also indicate..
Suzette:maybe starting
from the sameness of interest - reliable, aesthetic, etc - but
may have some impairments that limit their ability to access
and process information
... continue with
mainstream solution (rather than assistive tech or adaptive
strategies)
... maybe diversity
in a different way
Shadi: studies often
talked about usability being important
... from trust,
experience, etc
Shadi: Literature search revealed issues such as trust etc -
Kate: is there a need to mention usability as well as accessibility
AA: want to get people thinking about both - as shown in various studies
Suzette: with older people, it's sometimes 'mainstream' usability that makes the difference though there is a clear overlap
Shadi: hearing that maybe we've put too much emphasis on usability, even though vey important, especially for mild disabilities
Michael: usability might be emphasised because older people did not grow up with computers and the web - hard to learn the concepts - might change in the future
Michael: is usability issue more to do with older people who have come to computing late. Harder to learn the concepts.How much will this change in the future
AA: some are saying it could will change - but also how will the web adapt to. Concepts similar but practice is different
Michael: combining accessibility
and usability helps with arguing the case with clients
... there is a lot of overlapping
AA: maybe he will work with Shadi to create a different approach
Suzette: in WA&OP
seems to get the balance right - this doc seems to set us up
for how older people might see the web, and not sure it's
right
... in particular in
relation to guidelines, less use of AT & AS is important,
so leaning more to usability (and less technical solution) is
required (e.g. text, colour, contrast)
... business case,
overlapping needs, then what to look for - positive approach
... maybe need
examples in our intro of what is important to older people with
minor impairments, but isn't a technical issue for
AT
<shadi> ACTION: consider providing a specific example to clarify the relevance of accessibility for older people [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-waiage-minutes.html#action03]
Shadi: starting with an anecdote or story can also make it a bit more engaging
AA: moving on to next section About W3C WCAG
Shadi: to Michael as a developer how does this work
Michael: not bad!
AA: is there material here that would be useful to pass on to a designer who is new to this?
Michael: second sentence - maybe turn it around - primarily written with disability in mind, then ageing
<Andrew> [maybe change order of -- used to design websites that are more usable for older people, as well as people with disabilities]
AA: was just trying to emphasis the issue
Michael: recommends AA
Shadi: a difficult issue to push
michael: maybe can make it in a way that says - a reasonable target? depending on type of website
Shadi: might provide very simple qualification
Suzette: issues affecting older people seem more often to be AA or even AAA
Shadi: but these benefit all
people - sometimes they may be advisory techniques
... may be more related to experience or down to bad design.
Really just need to make it usable
... if you want to make a website more usable for older people,
need to make it more usable for everyone
... getting the font size right affects everyone - it is a
general usability issue.
AA: just becomes more critical... sometimes inexperience and sometime impairment
Michael: if we want to develop and
design for all people may be right, but may not be helpful.
Better the other way round by helping older people will have
benefits for others
... issues such as font and contrast can more easily be named.
Problems may be less easily visible but can be detected by
watching people
... example of timing for instance
... some of the AAA requirement are quite easy to include
Andrew: Next section Applying
WCAG 2 - [] links will be removed just there for
reviewing
... Does the text from guideline help
Michael: Yes - but understanding
success criteria is difficult to understand
... not a helpful place to send the developer
... keep the text;
drop the understanding links
Suzette: say in intro 'specific benefits' for older people
<shadi> ACTION: consider examples to highlight relevance of the requirements for older people [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-waiage-minutes.html#action04]
AA: Any final comments
Kate: for clearer language try and avoid so many 'success criterion'
<shadi> ACTION: consider avoiding over-use of "success criterion" (and other jargon) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-waiage-minutes.html#action05]
Shadi: 'some of the specific benefits for older people include....
<Andrew> some of the specific benefits for older people include ... (drop SC) in sentence
AA: may request some additional contacts over the summers as there are a number of docs nearing completion
Shadi: suggests that there will be available for summer holiday reading