Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 23 Jun 2010

<trackbot> Date: 23 June 2010

<DKA> hello all

<petef> I'm not getting the 7994 conference code recognised dialling in to the UK no.

<petef> Any ideas?

<DKA> Chair: Harry

Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-06-16T15:00-17:00GMT

<hhalpin> scribenick: MacTed

<hhalpin> scribe: MacTed

<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve minutes from June 16th meeting.

<DKA> +1

<hhalpin> RESOLVED: approved minutes from June 16th meeting

<hhalpin> PROPOSED: Meet again June 30th - topic: final report

<hhalpin> +1

<DKA> +1

<hhalpin> RESOLVED: meeting again June 30th

final report update

<DKA> Also - sorry but I will have to leave the call today at 16:45 UK time - unavoidable I'm afraid.

<paul> and paul

<hhalpin> ACTION: DKA to write introduction. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Write introduction. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-06-30].

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReportElementsDiscussion

<cperey> agreed! good goal!

<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Intro-fodder

<hhalpin> ACTION [CONTINUES]: DKA to write introduction

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - [CONTINUES]

<petef> Could somebody remind me what the US no. is for the conf call?

<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DKA to write introduction [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action02]

<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Business-considerations-section-draft

<petef> Ta

<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] PeterF to make picture of landscape. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action03]

<hhalpin> Peter - do you have experience making sort of graphics?

<melvster1> struggling to enter the pass code

<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tpa to work on a summary extract of the Social Web current use-cases for part 3 on wiki pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action04]

<cperey> :-)

<petef> hhalpin I'm certainly no graphic designer, but 'sort of graphics' maybe.

<hhalpin> wonders if we can recruit Fabien Gandon for some graphics, he did a great job with some earlier W3C work

<tpa> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases-WorkArea

tpa: editing use cases as linked; keeping the bulk of what's there

<melvster1> hi sorry mic isnt working

<melvster1> can type here ...

<petef> hhalpin I certainly wouldn't take offence if Fabien was able to help

<melvster1> OWF sent out a query about licences and projects ...

<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin and melvster to write State of the Social Web in 2010 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action05]

<melvster1> work on etherpad in progress ... http://openetherpad.org/Ea4YsoZGeU

<hhalpin> adding link to etherpad to wiki

DKA: backchannel conversation about melding some W3C and OpenWeb Foundation work

<hhalpin> melvster - if you can, add link to etherpad to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReportElementsDiscussion

<bblfish> hi

<hhalpin> They are separable

<cperey> yes, different groups

<cperey> woo hoo!!

hhalpin - yeah, this is what I meant... I'm really not good at extracting salience (and dictation is worse)

<hhalpin> scribenick: hhalpin

bblfish: FOAF+SSL is a misnomer
... FOAF is just one nice ontology
... we have shown it can tie itself to OpenID and different ID systems

what about browser support for certificates?

bblfish: Apple your not allowed to tell

<MacTed> iOS4 is fully released now; we can report whether something works or not

bblfish: not sure re mobile phones
... bug report on chrome and bug report on firefox to fix certificate management
... they should be able to change certificate and connection

paul: lot of work to do to make user experience on login
... even if you stay in domain of browsers
... people don't want certificate management, password selection, infocard selection at once
... each of these technologies have different user experience
... when I look at this way
... one wants a standard multi-protocol website discovery document
... with a significant work in Kantara

<DKA> This discussion, to me, reinforces the idea that we need to recommend 2 separate efforts / WGs: (1) Social Web Data Model and (2) Social Web Identity

paul: enhancing discovery so a human with a browser can have a significant user experience
... in kantara group, we have focussed on this user-experience

bblfish: I think we are agreeing

paul: absolute agreement
... I believe there will be multi-protocol identification

bblfish: there is a bug in SSL protocol, not sure when your certificate is being sent
... a real bug that needs to be fixed
... that can be tied into user experience

DKA: lets go further than co-ordination group
... there isn't a mechanism for OWF
... other than a license

<bblfish> the bug report for chromium http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=29784

DKA: hammer out a liason agreement with OWF to participate in joint effort with a chartered W3C WG
... like WHATWG with HTML5.
... and that group would look at overall integration
... a real valuable service

http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/06/best_place_new_standards.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vision-newstd/

More things like HTML5 more open work, taking work that's already widely implemented - stuff like ActivityStreams and then basically fast-tracking or endorsing

upper-end of the standardization stack, there's also a lot with talk of ISO

<cperey> chairs.. understanding what the SWXG will recommend to W3C and getting agreement on that is important, however, the politics are not as important (to me at least). I'd like to have this meeting come back to the process of preparing the final report of the SWXG

paul: big players are looking at the IP policies and are concerned

<melvster1> David Rudin (OWF) offered to help

<bblfish> so what would be needed for WebId standaradisation is:

<bblfish> Stage 1: core spec of WebID (foaf+ssl)

<bblfish> - review of ontology

<bblfish> - security/IETF review in detail with TLS people, and recommendation to IETF TLS group perhaps.

<bblfish> Stage 2: additional protocols tie in:

<bblfish> - tie ins with OpenId, o(x)auth, liberty etc.

<bblfish> - other issues

<bblfish> I think Stage 1, can be done as a sole project

<cperey> gap analysis [GREAT!] politics...

<scribe> ACTION: DKA to draft bullet points straw-man for gap analysis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Draft bullet points straw-man for gap analysis [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-06-30].

the gap analysis is obviously quite important and a bit under-developed, but as soon as DKA is done we'll move on the rest of the final report

<bblfish> paul who? sorry

<bblfish> ah yes

<bblfish> ok

paul: next week in Ukraine, will work online

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Business-considerations-section-draft

cperey: here it is
... I welcome feedback
... you can also get me a PDF
... big economic incentive with the status quo
... a case will have to be made
... that new standards have to take into economic environment
... we need better incentives
... next step is micropayments
... if we don't have a proper new business model

<melvster1> payswarm / openmarketplace is quite active

cperey: then they will pay attention to new work
... they don't have a preference to technology use
... not my role for technology use
... a standard approach for micropayments that covers web and mobile user is inevitable
... but we can go beyond proprietary solutions, payswarm is an open source strategy

<petef> I have to leave too, apologies. Hhalpin I'll catch up with you tomorrow or Friday.

<bblfish> micropayments are really important indeed

cperey: the existence of a micropayment system

ReputationDefender comes to mind

cperey: so abstracting identity management from networks, transportable across networks.

paul: in identity space the micropayments are not discussed too much
... business is mostly around trust/privacy frameworks for personal data

<cperey> +1 trust frameworks

paul: WEF is starting a whole program here
... personal data ecosystems

<cperey> but someone will need to pay for the personal data ecosystem

<cperey> and probably that will be the user

paul: conversations with Berkman Center, Sandy Pentland's "New Deal for Data"
... need to established to handle business/privacy aspects in dealing with data
... most of conversations have been around trust/policy frameworks

<cperey> I think those frameworks will go only slowly if there are no economic incentives

<cperey> I would like to make sure that the Framework contributions is included in final report or pointed to from the final report http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks2

paul: auditing, clients

<bblfish> perhaps problem is that people are finding the need to sell data and flout pricacy requirements because there is no other ways to get money?

agreed bblfish

<cperey> Status quo preservation is a business imperative

<cperey> +1

<bblfish> ( it would be fun to do some brain storming on how to do micropayments with WebID ).

<cperey> sorry to miss that last meeting

<cperey> it's also mired in legal problems

<cperey> very, very tied up with national economic entities

very old

w3c work on micropayments

http://www.w3.org/ECommerce/Micropayments/

<bblfish> would SSL be enough?

<cperey> that's what I've heard as well. But there can be security/authorization service providers

paul: general feeling is that the level of assurance is too low with OpenID

http://www.w3.org/ECommerce/Micropayments/

<cperey> that's why guaranteed identity service providers/management layer is crucial

paul: the problem is assuring you think your dealing with who you are dealing with, who's been phished

not sure bblfish

<bblfish> yes, but you don't know that either with credit cards?

<bblfish> and is it really important for micropayments?

paul: usa govt requires openID for zero-level, infocards for higher-levels

<melvster1> yes

<melvster1> but mic isnt working ...

<cperey> +1

<cperey> but my section is only 2 pages!

<melvster1> sure

<paul> credit cards work because there's a parallel network (3d secure, etc.) with a business rules, (effectively a trust framework) behind it

<cperey> yes, I would like that. I think that Tim has a good draft

<cperey> sure. Or to make sure that we are on track for first draft of other sections

FIRST draft by next week

<melvster1> seems ok :)

tpa - anyone interesting in giving a good review?

<cperey> +1

<scribe> ACTION: paul to review cperey's first draft of business section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Review cperey's first draft of business section [on Paul Trevithick - due 2010-06-30].

<cperey> Yep!

<cperey> good to hear!

<paul> apologies that I won't be on next weeks call

trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference

23 Jun 2010

Attendees

Contents

Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-06-16T15:00-17:00GMT

final report update

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output